Lidstrom's Norris chances?

[StaticWithABeat 0]

The real issue is that I like this team as they are now constructed. I would love to see the same basic team come back next year minus Lang, Lilja, and possibly Sammuelson. But I see no way that they will be able to sign Calder, Bert, Dats, etc. w/ the 7.6 mil salary. Maybe that's OK and you sacrifice some of these guys, but I would hate to let any of the 3 I mentioned walk regardless of the playoff outcome.

$7.6mil or not, without Lidstrom the Wings would be dead in the water, probably a borderline playoff team at best. If retaining him means letting a couple of FA's get away, then so be it. Calder shouldn't be too difficult to re-sign, hopefully we can get him at a reasonable price, and it sounds like Kenny is working to get Datsyuk signed. I don't expect Bertuzzi to be back next year, unless he is willing to take a big pay cut I can't see the Wings having the room to retain him. Getting rid of Lang and his $3.8mil salary might help that cause though.

Edited March 29, 2007 by StaticWithABeat

[eva unit zero 271]

Your detailed argument is excellent, though I don't think overpaying others is a good yardstick and I don't think any defenseman at 7.6 is a bargain if you are a GM and must be responsible for fielding a competitive team. Frankly, I think GM's are still adjusting to the cap idea and that is why you are seeing inflated salaries. Also, there are plenty of GMs out there willing to overpay for perceived marque players and surround them with youngsters and and a wish and a prayer mostly for attendance reasons.

Look, if you consider cost vs. value then this conversation is moot. No one is going to argue, say, Yashin vs. Zets with regards to this. If you want to field a great team then how can you argue Lids vs. someone like Visshnesky or Pheneuf (sp) ? You can't. I've heard the same argument applied to Datsyuk and no one seems to blink, though I think Dats will prove this year to be in the elite post playoffs.

There are few if any players worth 7 mil in the salary cap era. Nick, I would agree is close.

Visnovsky is almost as good as Nick offensively, but nowhere near Nick defensively. He is far more similar to Schneider than he is to Lidstrom. And Schneider is RIDICULOUSLY underpaid relative to some others who produce as much or less offensively and are equal or worse defensively (Jovo, McCabe, Blake) And Visnovsky has only just recently reached into the top end of offensive defensemen--his current contract was signed when he was a depth defenseman who had just come off what was a career year for points-per-game, scoring 29 points in 58 games. He should be expecting a huge raise when his current deal ends, one which will make him far less of a bargain than Nick.

Phaneuf likely will demand at the very least 3-4m on his next contractPhaneuf is on a rookie contract. He, like Crosby, CAN'T be factored into this discussion because no matter how good he is, his base salary is capped and bonuses will only allow him to get so far.. If he is a Norris finalist by then, look for 5-6m.

Now, if you can find me someone whose contract is more of a bargain than Nick's, who received said contract AFTER acheiving a high level of play..THEN we'll talk.

[redwinger4747 6]

I would say Lidstrom's contract is fair, not a bargain. There's no question he is worth every penny he makes, but I think he is getting his fair market value from us, not less than his value.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

I hate to say it, but the OLN guys did a good analysis. If you think about the better overall player, it's Niedermayer. He goes into the corners, forechecks, scores more goals, and mixes it up (Olcyk's pick). Nick plays a better defensive game, has a MUCH better +/- ( like 32 to 8) and always plays against the best lines, plus he plays the PP and the PK.

So, if you want a Norris winner, since it is Best Defensive Player, it's Nick; Niedermayer is more suited for the Hart (but won't win, Luongo has that) and if he played forward he would be a lock for the Selke.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Wings_Dynasty

[toby91_ca 620]

I hate to say it, but the OLN guys did a good analysis. If you think about the better overall player, it's Niedermayer. He goes into the corners, forechecks, scores more goals, and mixes it up (Olcyk's pick). Nick plays a better defensive game, has a MUCH better +/- ( like 32 to 8) and always plays against the best lines, plus he plays the PP and the PK.

So, if you want a Norris winner, since it is Best Defensive Player, it's Nick; Niedermayer is more suited for the Hart (but won't win, Luongo has that) and if he played forward he would be a lock for the Selke.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.

The Norris is not awarded to the best defensive player.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.

The Norris is not awarded to the best defensive player.

Which is why I brought up the +/- and the Selke reference. There really should be a Bobby Orr Award for best offensive defenseman, then we could have a best defensive defenseman, and it would be the Norris because in spirit that is what it is: The Best Defensman, which means good at defending.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Even Pierre Maguire said the other night: "Niedermayer has not been as good defensively without Pronger in the lineup"

Lidstroms got it.

[Airborn 0]

I don't think the award is as "in the bag" as some people think. The more I hear this talked about by analysts, the more Niedermayer's name is being brought up.

For instance, the St. Louis announcer (Bernie Federko) brought up that Lidstrom had only 43 hits all year, and that he felt Niedermayer was deserving because he could have won it last year.

[WhiteCloud 0]

The guys on OLN had to each pick one or the other. They were not going to let them both choose the same player. They showed Niedermyer going into the offfensive end and made it seem like Lidstrom never does that. Niedermeyer is a great player but Lidstrom is a better all around player and a better d-man. IMO he is the best player in the game right now in terms of all around play.

[HuntsVegas Baby 0]

Hes got it , Niedermayer at second , and my buddy Andreas will be thrid in voting

I am truly surprised this thread made it that far without a Lilja or Hatcher comment.

Edited March 29, 2007 by HuntsVegas Baby

[toby91_ca 620]

Pronger:

62gp, 13g, 56pts, +28

Lidstrom:

77gp, 13g, 61pts, +36

Prorate Pronger's pts to 77gp:

16g, 70pts, +35

Had Pronger not missed any games, I think he's probably the favourite, but at least you would have a very tight race.

Is Pronger even out of it at this point because he's missed 14 or 15 games?

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Pronger:

62gp, 13g, 56pts, +28

Lidstrom:

77gp, 13g, 61pts, +36

Prorate Pronger's pts to 77gp:

16g, 70pts, +35

Had Pronger not missed any games, I think he's probably the favourite, but at least you would have a very tight race.

Is Pronger even out of it at this point because he's missed 14 or 15 games?

Yes. Pronger sucks.

Schneider was the clear favorite a few years ago when he went down in the last half. Missed games don't count.

[eva unit zero 271]

Pronger:

62gp, 13g, 56pts, +28

Lidstrom:

77gp, 13g, 61pts, +36

Prorate Pronger's pts to 77gp:

16g, 70pts, +35

Had Pronger not missed any games, I think he's probably the favourite, but at least you would have a very tight race.

Is Pronger even out of it at this point because he's missed 14 or 15 games?

Prongs missed too much to win, but as I said he has cleary been Anaheim's best, which ruins any chance Nieds had.

[toby91_ca 620]

Prongs missed too much to win, but as I said he has cleary been Anaheim's best, which ruins any chance Nieds had.

I think Pronger does hurt Niedermayer's chances as Pronger has been the clear cut better player in Anahiem, so Lidstrom is close to a lock, but not quite.

I tend to agree on Pronger missing too much, I am just questioning myself, how much is too much? Orr won it in 1968 I think after only playing 46 games and recording 31pts, not a great comparison, I know.

Edited March 30, 2007 by toby91_ca

[wingslogo19 281]

Even Pierre Maguire said the other night: "Niedermayer has not been as good defensively without Pronger in the lineup"

Lidstroms got it.

[Vilmer 0]

Lids is in his own league. He definitely deserves it, again

[Guest Tunbo Batman]

they'll probably give it to nieds just because they are tired of giving it to lids

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

Lids just has to be a lock for the norris this season , he's the complete defenceman that makes everything he does so simple. Plus neidermayer plays with pronger so they compliment each others play.

[toby91_ca 620]

Lids just has to be a lock for the norris this season , he's the complete defenceman that makes everything he does so simple. Plus neidermayer plays with pronger so they compliment each others play.

They play on the same team, but they are not a defensive pairing.

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

They play on the same team, but they are not a defensive pairing.

Sorry i don't get to see the ducks much, so i'm not sure what there D pairings are, But hey it must be cool having two of the best defencemen in the nhl. But i still prefer lidstrom.

[eva unit zero 271]

They play on the same team, but they are not a defensive pairing.

Niedermayer and Pronger being on the same team is enough to help each other.

Niedermayer's slump with Pronger out can be largely attributed to the fact he has been focused on much more by opposition that doesn't have to worry about Pronger.

[toby91_ca 620]

Niedermayer's slump with Pronger out can be largely attributed to the fact he has been focused on much more by opposition that doesn't have to worry about Pronger.

Doubtful, I don't think many teams spend a lot of time "focusing" on defensemen during the normal run of a game. Where they would focus a lot on Pronger for example would be on the powerplay where teams would try to do their best in keeping him from getting a clear shot off from the point.

[eva unit zero 271]

Doubtful, I don't think many teams spend a lot of time "focusing" on defensemen during the normal run of a game. Where they would focus a lot on Pronger for example would be on the powerplay where teams would try to do their best in keeping him from getting a clear shot off from the point.

Phoenix, I think, beat Anaheim pretty badly this season with a Niedermayer-centered game plan.

And yes, Pronger not being on the PP hurts Niedermayer.

[toby91_ca 620]

And yes, Pronger not being on the PP hurts Niedermayer.

True

[Earthhuman 8]

Neidermayer is playing better than what made him clear second, while Lidstrom is a little less potent offensively than what he was while he was a clear first. The lines have blurred a little. The Norris winner may be the better player in these last 3-6 games.

I still vote Lidstrom.