Guest Crymson Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) If you can't go to another team and wear your colors, that's just SAD. We are fans, not psychos. edit: And of course it's bad if ANYONE gets beat down man or woman, but that fact that it was men attacking women makes it worse IMO because they probably were outmatched. It would be worse if it was children, too, but I wouldn't call that ageist Well, what if it were this chick beating down a bunch of skinny men? Would that be wrong, because she's stronger, or would it be OK to just use an average of the strengths of the respective sexes? For those of you men who say "ewwww" to this picture, I'm sorry you're not more comfortable with yourselves. No one should lay a finger on anyone. Be it man vs. man, woman vs woman, man vs woman, woman vs. man. BUT I don't think it's THAT big of a deal if it's girl against girl or guy against guy. I know you're going by the argument of disparity in strength again. Would you be as vehement as you are about man on woman violence if it were Arnold Schwarzenagger beating on Edward Norton? There's a pretty massive disparity in strength there. In the end, like I said, it's only your loss if you want to disempower yourself on the basis of your gender. Also, face it, people: women are just as capable of being violent as are men, and studies show that the vast majority of woman-on-man violence goes unreported. Meanwhile, it's perfectly fine and even seen as humorous by some when a woman beats a man up on some TV show; I imagine those same people wouldn't be laughing if the roles were reversed. That's called a double standard. In this case, somebody got attacked. It was wrong, as is all violence, and that's what's important. The notion violence is somehow more or less wrong--ESPECIALLY because it would have been seen by many as "no big deal" if the victim here had been a man--is disgusting. Edited May 19, 2007 by Crymson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OsGOD 3 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 It is wrong no matter who it is doing the beating... The fact of the matter that is appalling is that YOU should be able to go to a sporting event and cheer on whomever you want and not have to fear getting your ass kicked. Regardless of which sex is the offender. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted May 19, 2007 It is wrong no matter who it is doing the beating... The fact of the matter that is appalling is that YOU should be able to go to a sporting event and cheer on whomever you want and not have to fear getting your ass kicked. Regardless of which sex is the offender. Exactly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HockeyCrazy3033 168 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Well, what if it were this chick beating down a bunch of skinny men? Would that be wrong, because she's stronger, or would it be OK to just use an average of the strengths of the respective sexes? For those of you men who say "ewwww" to this picture, I'm sorry you're not more comfortable with yourselves. I know you're going by the argument of disparity in strength again. Would you be as vehement as you are about man on woman violence if it were Arnold Schwarzenagger beating on Edward Norton? There's a pretty massive disparity in strength there. In the end, like I said, it's only your loss if you want to disempower yourself on the basis of your gender. Also, face it, people: women are just as capable of being violent as are men, and studies show that the vast majority of woman-on-man violence goes unreported. Meanwhile, it's perfectly fine and even seen as humorous by some when a woman beats a man up on some TV show; I imagine those same people wouldn't be laughing if the roles were reversed. That's called a double standard. In this case, somebody got attacked. It was wrong, as is all violence, and that's what's important. The notion violence is somehow more or less wrong--ESPECIALLY because it would have been seen by many as "no big deal" if the victim here had been a man--is disgusting. I'm pretty sure you just misconstrued everything I said. I blame myself for wording it wrong. No one should touch anyone period. That's that. I'm just saying in general when you have fights breaking out in school and such..it's usually going to be man against man or woman against woman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OsGOD 3 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 I'm pretty sure you just misconstrued everything I said. I blame myself for wording it wrong. No one should touch anyone period. That's that. I'm just saying in general when you have fights breaking out in school and such..it's usually going to be man against man or woman against woman. and damn were those the worst... cat fighty and all... ouch! Nails, hair... vicious! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OsGOD 3 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) That was nice of the guy behind the devil to pull him away from the punch... that could have hurt if it connected. Edited May 19, 2007 by OsGOD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 I was watching that game on the NHL Network today. Flyers fans went crazy because Stevens destroyed Lindros. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) Forgive me for waxing a wee bit sarcastic, but in what world do you guys live where this is even mildly shocking news? I have to admit to not knowing why you equate considering this worthy of attention with being -shocked- (which it isn't--to be shocked would be to be surprised, which none of us are), and ontop of that thinking the significance accorded it bad. It ain't on the scale of people getting wiped out in Africa that we don't even hear about, but it's worth the regard that we pay it. Chivalry and equality do not mix. FYI, chivalry stems from the dark ages, in which women had no rights; sure, the man did everything for the woman, but he also held the power of life or death over her and she had zero say in anything. Women were second-class citizens back then; THAT was the basis of chivalry. You can't have equality on one hand and special treatment on the other. I see PEOPLE as equals; that's it. Women are capable of everything that men are; like I said to HC, if you want to disempower yourself by making excuses for gender, that's your loss. And Crym, you probably wouldn't get too many popular sentiments for the above, but I agree on seeing the connection between some of the aspects of "modern chivalry" and equality, then gender roles. It bugs me in the day to day when seeing some of the more extreme examples of women who are so dolled up as if to deliberately look like they're only there to be looked at... and/or in their mannerisms play the role of being incapable of doing anything for themselves, in order to attract the kind of men who enjoy that. <-- That's kind of unrelated to the specific matter of chivalry/equality, but anyway, I know what you mean on some of the destructive aspects that undermine the capability that women have. The huge undercurrent of misogyny in a broad variety of men is still on my mind. I've gotten to hear the minds of too many guys who talk about their girlfriends/girl friends/women they don't even know in pretty moronic ways that would make you want to label them sociopaths--and some of these, I think, get spurred on by some of our gender roles here, in this era. Although I'm still a fan of being courteous to women, sans pretenses of them needing it. I pretty much can see a lot of sides on this - important, imo - discussion. Edited May 19, 2007 by Flip-check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kp-Wings 3 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Well to be fair... Ottawa and Buffalo seem pretty damn lame also and lookie lookie who this thread is about. so you never know. I meant that Toronto and Chicago fans are very boring. Even when the Leafs make the playoffs, you could still take a nap at the ACC because it's so quiet. And I'd be suprised if the Hawks still had any fans, if you know what I mean. Your ava. I miss my KC. I still believe in him. You should too. Kyle Calder will live on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) I meant that Toronto and Chicago fans are very boring. Even when the Leafs make the playoffs, you could still take a nap at the ACC because it's so quiet. And I'd be suprised if the Hawks still had any fans, if you know what I mean. I still believe in him. You should too. Kyle Calder will live on. "will live on" lol! !! edit: I just realized that we have the same benched theme behind our avs, how funny! Edited May 19, 2007 by Flip-check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HockeyCrazy3033 168 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 I meant that Toronto and Chicago fans are very boring. Even when the Leafs make the playoffs, you could still take a nap at the ACC because it's so quiet. And I'd be suprised if the Hawks still had any fans, if you know what I mean. I still believe in him. You should too. Kyle Calder will live on. Oh I believe in him. I only changed my ava because of a superstition. I'm changing back to Kyle for the next game. "will live on" lol! !! edit: I just realized that we have the same benched theme behind our avs, how funny! Hey now peeps..I believed in KC first. Seriously though..I miss him. He really needs to play. That guy is a heck of a player..something has got to be wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Offsides 21 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) Too PC for me Crymson. I'm not talking about 'equality'. Men and women are different but equal. It's harder for women to achieve that kind of strength no matter what you say...and a guy who was a body builder would probably be stronger than that body builder woman. It's just facts. No disrespect to my sex. If it isn't the truth how come there aren't women in the NHL, NBA, or NFL? I'd take chivalry anyday. I'm sick of guys using PC crap. Basically it has come full circle. Men used to disrespect women in one way, and now they just use different reasons to disrespect them, so please do hold doors open for me...it's polite. Edited May 19, 2007 by Offsides Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kp-Wings 3 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 "will live on" lol! !! edit: I just realized that we have the same benched theme behind our avs, how funny! I mean it. I certainly hope his bad playoffs doesn't put a dent into him coming back. He's a great player, and until something went wrong, he was one of the best forwards on the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Geez, that's horrible. Reminds me of game 2 of the '97 SCF. I was in the bathroom and I saw some ******* Flyers fan poor beer all over this guy and sucker-punch him from behind while he was taking a leak -- and all because he was wearing an Yzerman jersey. I was rather young and it made a pretty big impression on me, sadly. Thankfully, I grew up to be big and strong, so now I just have to shoot Flyers fans nasty looks and they'll leave me and my Vladdy jersey alone. (God I hate Philly.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) Too PC for me Crymson. I'm not talking about 'equality'. Men and women are different but equal. It's harder for women to achieve that kind of strength no matter what you say...and a guy who was a body builder would probably be stronger than that body builder woman. It's just facts. No disrespect to my sex. If it isn't the truth how come there aren't women in the NHL, NBA, or NFL? I'd take chivalry anyday. I'm sick of guys using PC crap. Basically it has come full circle. Men used to disrespect women in one way, and now they just use different reasons to disrespect them, so please do hold doors open for me...it's polite. I'll put it this way: women want workplace equality and societal equality, and I completely support that because I believe we're all equal no matter the sex. However, I've found that women are responsible for much of the opposition to equality. If you constantly make references as to how you are less than men--physically, emotionally, etc--and need to be treated more easily accordingly, and if you demand that men give you special treatment because you're a woman, then you're actively establishing yourself as below men and you'll continue to get paid less for the same work. If you want equality, think of yourself as an equal and act accordingly. If you don't want sex equality, then I feel it's your loss; if you do want it yet want to continue receiving special treatment and accommodations anyway, then you're attempting to eat your cake and have it too and you'll never accomplish either. Many women make the mistake of thinking that your type of sentiment is universal. It is not, and the most economically, politically and socially successful women are the ones who pitch this sort of attitude into the can, break down the walls, and make their own way. PC? I don't think so. You're making it sound like chivalry is the "natural" way of things. That's not true, as a multitude of examples in history have shown. At many points throughout history women were indeed subordinate to men; this is from which chivalry emerged. These days, unlike those in the past, women have a choice. If you choose to subscribe to the old values, you're choosing to continue to subordinate yourself to that segment of the male population which subscribes to said values as well. It's all about decisions. My beliefs have nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with just how I see things; if you don't want me to see you as an equal, I won't really understand why, but I'll just say, "too bad; it's gonna happen anyway." Edited May 19, 2007 by Crymson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedRockit 0 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 I have to admit to not knowing why you equate considering this worthy of attention with being -shocked- (which it isn't--to be shocked would be to be surprised, which none of us are), and ontop of that thinking the significance accorded it bad. It ain't on the scale of people getting wiped out in Africa that we don't even hear about, but it's worth the regard that we pay it. See, that's why I said 'forgive me in advance"-- I knew I was being bitchy when I posted, probably should have stfu. It's just that there have been so many similar stories that I'm soulsick re the subject. It might be far worse in Europe, where people have actually died in riots at sporting events. You are completely right to call me out on this-- if something like this ISN'T worthy of discussion, it would be a sad commentary on the human condition. In my defense, however, I DID refrain from bringing up Africa or the Middle East or global warming or Paris Hilton... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VladyIBELIEVE16 257 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Offsides, you posted this because I told you about that run in with the Ducks fan on Tuesday night huh.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 I'll put it this way: women want workplace equality and societal equality, and I completely support that because I believe we're all equal no matter the sex. However, I've found that women are responsible for much of the opposition to equality. If you constantly make references as to how you are less than men--physically, emotionally, etc--and need to be treated more easily accordingly, and if you demand that men give you special treatment because you're a woman, then you're actively establishing yourself as below men and you'll continue to get paid less for the same work. If you want equality, think of yourself as an equal and act accordingly. If you don't want sex equality, then I feel it's your loss; if you do want it yet want to continue receiving special treatment and accommodations anyway, then you're attempting to eat your cake and have it too and you'll never accomplish either. Many women make the mistake of thinking that your type of sentiment is universal. It is not, and the most economically, politically and socially successful women are the ones who pitch this sort of attitude into the can, break down the walls, and make their own way. PC? I don't think so. You're making it sound like chivalry is the "natural" way of things. That's not true, as a multitude of examples in history have shown. At many points throughout history women were indeed subordinate to men; this is from which chivalry emerged. These days, unlike those in the past, women have a choice. If you choose to subscribe to the old values, you're choosing to continue to subordinate yourself to that segment of the male population which subscribes to said values as well. It's all about decisions. My beliefs have nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with just how I see things; if you don't want me to see you as an equal, I won't really understand why, but I'll just say, "too bad; it's gonna happen anyway." I haven't been following this dialogue, and Crymson and I haven't exactly hit it off in the past, but: My thoughts exactly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Offsides 21 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 (edited) Okay, you are pissing me off, because you basically think I think I'm less than men. NO, I am physically weaker than the GREAT majority of men, though. BIG difference, and just a fact of life. I'm starting to think that you are the sexist one, as you seem to think I need to think a certain way, or I'm beneath men..Psssh. I don't see how treated women nicely, and NOT punching them has anything to do with equality...I'm sorry. I guess, then, I don't believe in equality, I believe I'm better than being treated like that. Offsides, you posted this because I told you about that run in with the Ducks fan on Tuesday night huh.... Yes, somehow it's become a debate about sexism or something, but yeah. I see that fans are crossing the line more...it's scary. And yeah, I can't believe a guy would attack another fan, especially a woman. Because we've both had run-ins with scary fans, but would you ever think they'd come up and punch you in the face? That's really scary. And I mean that in the most sexist way possible. Because I'm sexist. Edited May 19, 2007 by Offsides Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VladyIBELIEVE16 257 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Honestly after that run in, I've never been MORE uncomfortable at a hockey game in my life..not even at STAPLES.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Okay, you are pissing me off, because you basically think I think I'm less than men. NO, I am physically weaker than the GREAT majority of men, though. BIG difference, and just a fact of life. I'm starting to think that you are the sexist one, as you seem to think I need to think a certain way, or I'm beneath men..Psssh. I don't see how treated women nicely, and NOT punching them has anything to do with equality...I'm sorry. I guess, then, I don't believe in equality, I believe I'm better than being treated like that. This is exactly the response I generally get, when I talk of treating women completely equally, from both men and women who are into the old "chivalric" values system. Such talk embodies the complete opposite of sexism. If I claim that men and women are equal, and I'm told all the ways that women can't do what men can, then I'll certainly go into why said stated ways are complete BS in that I'll treat women and men equally anyway. When I belittle such differences, or suggest that they are irrelevant in that people should just DO--and all in the interest of equality, mind you--I am called sexist. In fact, advocating different treatment for men and for women is the precise definition of sexist. I'll treat you the same as I'll treat anyone else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VladyIBELIEVE16 257 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Wow did this thread get way out of hand. it's more a HEY be careful out there because you NEVER know what kind of fan is next to you at a GAME.. Get off the freaking soap box. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Offsides 21 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 Clearly, as you are equally irritating to everyone. Please don't explain sexism to me ever again. If someone shows concern that a woman was beat up, you don't need to come in with your PC *a person was beat up* crap. Yes, no one wants to see anyone beat up, but you didn't need to start a stupid debate about it. It's not about different treatment, it's about different limitations. UGH, I am not discussing this anymore. Are you a woman Crymson? Because if not, I highly doubt you know what it's like to be one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted May 19, 2007 I mean it. I certainly hope his bad playoffs doesn't put a dent into him coming back. He's a great player, and until something went wrong, he was one of the best forwards on the team. I know you do, I just had this image of him being mourned for dead due to the benching, haha. ^-- cracking up still, obviously! 'kyle calder will live on!' I truly believe that the Wings know what kind of player Kyle is though, and he will be back with us next season. He was a great acquisition for us.. and I remember Kenny I think saying some positive as heck things about him when we got him into town. See, that's why I said 'forgive me in advance"-- I knew I was being bitchy when I posted, probably should have stfu. It's just that there have been so many similar stories that I'm soulsick re the subject. It might be far worse in Europe, where people have actually died in riots at sporting events. You are completely right to call me out on this-- if something like this ISN'T worthy of discussion, it would be a sad commentary on the human condition. In my defense, however, I DID refrain from bringing up Africa or the Middle East or global warming or Paris Hilton... Hahaha! Or Paris indeed. No, actually I get your initial reaction, because I don't like it either when people seem oh-so-superly surprised or taken aback by things--because that usually is a bit of a useless response, and a bit of an ignorant one, so I understand the frustration at thinking it was a "omg we are so shocked" thread. And that too, I think if I lived in Europe (or in South America, from what I've heard), I'd totally form a moral stance against sporting events and their inclusion in people's lives. Not because pro/national sporting events or competition are inherently evil--but simply because of the way they act as an outlet to some very detrimental, very unimportant facets of human behavior and violence. They become a channel for destruction in that sense, rather than one for peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites