Management practically admits offseason mistakes?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

nope that'll be a great coach. Very Disneylike at that.

his supporting cast is a knock in the sense that it makes his job easier, but it's also praise for the org overall.

It's still too new to be able to say which GMs are doing well yet. We haven't even really seen major cap issues yet which is a great test of a GMs worth.

1. I totally agree with you that its too early to say he's a true success or any GM is in the Cap era.

2. I laugh at the people who said he'd be out of a job after the 1st year of the cap solely because he didn't have the blank check.

3. its been allowed to be said far too much that he isn't that good because he has good people around him. i think that's a s***ty way to detract from a person's success.

Frankly, I don't know anybody in life who has built something great whilst surrounded by bumbling, ******* morons. To be great you need a great supporting cast. I would never take anything away from somebody because their job is made easier by having good people around them. The whole damn point is to be a winner. To be the best you get the best players you can and surround yourself with the smartest, most talented, hard working people you can. A person should be applauded for that, not knocked for it is all i'm saying. You may not be doing it but that's gone on for years with ungrateful Wings fans.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

They are not admitting anything. I am fine with us going into the season with our current roster.

Agree. Who knows who could be around at the deadline anyway......

[therock48880 14]

So who do you think is a good GM since you can't stand Holland? (I can't wait to hear this)

PS: NO GM on the planet would sign 40 million in player salaries if their owner gave them a blank check so stop ******* looking down on Holland for having the benefit of a large checkbook to sign players. It isn't his fault that Illitch was willing to spend the dough and it doesn't speak less of Holland for using that dough. ANY GM WOULD DO THE SAME UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. Get it through your skull already. We're in the cap era and Holland has proved he's as good as the come with using the cap, keeping our prospects and picks and saving money for deadline acquisitions. Oh yeah, and we made it to the Conference Finals already in the capped era.

Holland is the ******* bomb. His record speaks for itself. I don't care if he has 40 mil to work with or 140 mil to work with, the guy just gets it done. He ices a winner every year and you'd be hard pressed to find another organization in sports that wins as frequently, as consistently and produces winners with regularity as the Wings. That credit belongs to the entire organization, which includes Holland. This isn't a great organization in spite of Holland. He makes the final decisions and thank god for that.

What are you guys NOT understanding here? I'm defending Holland! I don't blame him for not doing anything this offseason. Prices are out of control.

P.S. I assume Mr. Illitch has a say in the final decisions being made.

Of the six regular defensemen in the 2002 Cup run, Lidstrom and Dandenault are the only ones who were on the team before Holland took over. Of Chelios, Fischer, Olausson, and Duchesne...which one was a Hall of Famer who wanted to come to Detroit?

As far as the 'core' Holland had Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, Lidstrom as 'core' players who were on the roster when he took over that stuck around until 2002. If that core of four guys is so unstoppable that a terrible GM like Holland could win a Cup with them, why didn't the Wings win seven in a row from 1997 to 2003?

Great point. Of course I never mentioned anything about any defensemen wanting to come to Detroit. What I said was that Holland benefited in 02 because some very key players WANTED to come to Detroit. Hasek, Hull, and Robatille are the ones off the top of my head. Holland has benefited from a very good scouting system in Europe also.

This thread is amusing. For one of the first times in my life, I tried defending Holland for his lack of moves this offseason and everyone is jumping all over me. Players, up until now, have been priced too high. I think it's great that he hasn't done much. Geez. It's like you're trying to argue with me and I'm actually agreeing with you. Wait a minute...... are you my wife?

Agree. Who knows who could be around at the deadline anyway......

Federov

[Guest Crymson]

Federov

Who's that?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

What are you guys NOT understanding here? I'm defending Holland! I don't blame him for not doing anything this offseason. Prices are out of control.

P.S. I assume Mr. Illitch has a say in the final decisions being made.

Great point. Of course I never mentioned anything about any defensemen wanting to come to Detroit. What I said was that Holland benefited in 02 because some very key players WANTED to come to Detroit. Hasek, Hull, and Robatille are the ones off the top of my head. Holland has benefited from a very good scouting system in Europe also.

This thread is amusing. For one of the first times in my life, I tried defending Holland for his lack of moves this offseason and everyone is jumping all over me. Players, up until now, have been priced too high. I think it's great that he hasn't done much. Geez. It's like you're trying to argue with me and I'm actually agreeing with you. Wait a minute...... are you my wife?

Federov

Sigh. Just because you're defending him doesn't magically make the negative comments you made in the same paragraph no longer subject to the defense of others of differing opinions.

[therock48880 14]

Ooops, meant to type

Fedorov.

I was hurrying.

Sigh. Just because you're defending him doesn't magically make the negative comments you made in the same paragraph no longer subject to the defense of others of differing opinions.

Sigh............ If you go back and read the posts, my original post said that I don't like Holland but that I agree with what he's done this offseason. My point was, even a Holland-hater like me can't find fault with what he's doing this offseason.

Then, a few people started ripping on me. Should I not respond to their comments, they responded to mine? My goal wasn't to change the subject, it was actually to defend a guy that I don't like very much.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I'm the exact same way as most on here. I don't like Holland, but I'm not really bashing him for what he's done this offseason. I mean, sure, I would love to have Ryan Smyth on the Wings. But the salary cap prevents that from happening, and Zetterberg is a far more important part of this teams future. I don't want him to get away just because we signed Smyth.

The salaries that these guys like Gomez and Briere are making are just ridiculous. You notice that all the teams that had an active offseason (with the exception of the Rags) are all big market teams who had terrible seasons (Philly, Colorado, Toronto, St. Louis, Chicago). Many of the good teams (exception here of Anaheim) really didn't do too much at all during this offseason.

Holland has done a fine enough job this offseason. Rafalski is an upgrade over Schneider, and I like Dallas Drake. And he didn't overpay for any of the big names that aren't worth it.

That said, like others, I still don't like Holland. I have my reasons, and I'm sticking to them.

[vangvace 12]

P.S. I assume Mr. Illitch has a say in the final decisions being made.

Wouldn't surprise me if there was a collective of him, Holland, Nill, Devellano, Yzerman, Bowman, head scouts, and Babcock deciding who to go after.

Oh and I wonder what contracts Nill handles?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Sigh............ If you go back and read the posts, my original post said that I don't like Holland but that I agree with what he's done this offseason. My point was, even a Holland-hater like me can't find fault with what he's doing this offseason.

Then, a few people started ripping on me. Should I not respond to their comments, they responded to mine? My goal wasn't to change the subject, it was actually to defend a guy that I don't like very much.

Ok. Let's do that, shall we?

I can't stand Holland and have been ripping him for years. I think he gets WAY too much credit. When he took the team over, the core of the great teams was already in place.

Having said that, I don't blame him at all for not signing a top six forward. They were way overpaid and the teams that signed them will be stuck with the big salary cap numbers. I was furious when I found out that Bertuzzi went to Anaheim until I found out his salary. It would've been stupid for the Wings to invest so much into an injury prone forward. Especially when you consider that Lidstrom's contract is coming due.

You and I could keep the team in the upper echelon with an 87 million dollar payroll. In 02 he had a few guys who wanted to come to detroit to win a cup. It wasn't that he did anything special. He had the core in place and went out and signed and traded for hall of famers who wanted to come here. That doesn't make someone a great GM in my opinion.

I wasn't trying to hijack this thread anyways. My point was, I can't stand Holland but I don't blame him for not doing much this off season. Prices are WAY too high for the guys the Wings are/were interested in. In other words, I'm defending Holland.

What are you guys NOT understanding here? I'm defending Holland! I don't blame him for not doing anything this offseason. Prices are out of control.

P.S. I assume Mr. Illitch has a say in the final decisions being made.

Great point. Of course I never mentioned anything about any defensemen wanting to come to Detroit. What I said was that Holland benefited in 02 because some very key players WANTED to come to Detroit. Hasek, Hull, and Robatille are the ones off the top of my head. Holland has benefited from a very good scouting system in Europe also.

This thread is amusing. For one of the first times in my life, I tried defending Holland for his lack of moves this offseason and everyone is jumping all over me. Players, up until now, have been priced too high. I think it's great that he hasn't done much. Geez. It's like you're trying to argue with me and I'm actually agreeing with you. Wait a minute...... are you my wife?

Federov

Interesting. Not only did you do EXACTLY what I SAID:

Sigh. Just because you're defending him doesn't magically make the negative comments you made in the same paragraph no longer subject to the defense of others of differing opinions.

You also did it with more regularity then I could have imagined. Not ONE of your posts contained a comment about this topic that wasn't also paired with a comment about the inherited legacy of Holland.

So, it's almost, and I'm just speculating here so feel free to stop me, like you did exactly what I said you did.

Look, I'm sure you feel that people are ignoring your positive comment on Holland's behavior. But let me give you an illustration of my point:

"Hey Frank. Your wife is a stupid *****, but that dress looks very nice on her."

If Frank punched you afterwards I'd bet it had nothing to do with her dress.

EDIT: Added bold emphasis to the quotes

Edited July 18, 2007 by Drake_Marcus

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Does anybody ever visit other hockey forums around the internet?? Because Holland is widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the biz.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Of the six regular defensemen in the 2002 Cup run, Lidstrom and Dandenault are the only ones who were on the team before Holland took over. Of Chelios, Fischer, Olausson, and Duchesne...which one was a Hall of Famer who wanted to come to Detroit?

As far as the 'core' Holland had Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, Lidstrom as 'core' players who were on the roster when he took over that stuck around until 2002. If that core of four guys is so unstoppable that a terrible GM like Holland could win a Cup with them, why didn't the Wings win seven in a row from 1997 to 2003?

It was more than just those 4 though. He was also the beneficiary of the likes of Maltby, Draper, Holmstrom, and McCarty...key ingredients to a winning club as well. All the main components of a championship team were there when he took over. Thats the point some of us are making. In 2002, im sorry, but that Cup practically fell into his lap like 98 did. Acquiring Dominik Hasek came as a result of Buffalo not being able to afford Hasek any longer, and Detroit, having an "unlimited" payroll and not having to worry about draft picks, was able to pounce on it. It also helps when the rival hefty spender in Colorado already had Patrick Roy. Also, obviously Buffalo wouldnt want to deal him to the Rangers either. As pointed out already, Hull and Robitaille wanted to come here...and with money not being an issue anyway, inking them to deals is not some great GM feat. If it is, then you should be giving the same praise to Brian Burke for signing Scott Neidermayer and Selanne...who both wanted to come to Anaheim. But ive seen you criticize him many times so im feeling you wouldnt.

Does anybody ever visit other hockey forums around the internet?? Because Holland is widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the biz.

I look at that as a reason i consider him the most overrated. Im just saying his accomplishments are not the great feats that it looks on paper. Over the course of the next 5 years is when we'll truly see if Holland is a great GM or not.

[Guest jaytan]

Who's that?

Some lazy, greedy, uncompetitive bastard. I wouldn't worry too much about her.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Does anybody ever visit other hockey forums around the internet?? Because Holland is widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the biz.

Why are you acting like we all hate Holland and think he's a horrible GM?

I don't hate him, but there are stuff he does that I don't like care for. Like the unprecidented contract extensions to players who don't deserve them, such as Lilja and Samulesson. Or never really signing any naturally gritty players.

And please, for the love of God, don't give me the whole "Did you watch the playoffs?" crap anymore, because I'm tired of hearing it. One playoff year does make this team automatically gritty. Besides that, I'd rather have guys like Asham on the team who naturally play that style. Not a knock on someone like Franzen, but he's not a naturally gritty player, and playing a physical game can wear someone like him down.

I don't hate Holland. I think he's a good GM in certain aspects of the game, and in certain areas, he's not. He's good at not overpaying players who don't deserve it, and is good at finding talent that will fit here. What he isn't good at is signing gritty players, and his constant contract extensions to players who don't deserve them. Now, not a knock on Maltby here either, since I like Maltby, but do you really that, judging by the way he's played post lockout, that he deserves a 3-year contract extension? That's a bit much in my opinion.

I have my criticizims for Holland, but I have my compliments for him as well. Besides, it seems like every year that I doubt him, he always seems to prove me wrong. I figured that I might as well keep doing what I'm doing. Reverse-psychology is like magic.

edited for grammar

Edited July 18, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

1. I totally agree with you that its too early to say he's a true success or any GM is in the Cap era.

2. I laugh at the people who said he'd be out of a job after the 1st year of the cap solely because he didn't have the blank check.

3. its been allowed to be said far too much that he isn't that good because he has good people around him. i think that's a s***ty way to detract from a person's success.

Frankly, I don't know anybody in life who has built something great whilst surrounded by bumbling, ******* morons. To be great you need a great supporting cast. I would never take anything away from somebody because their job is made easier by having good people around them. The whole damn point is to be a winner. To be the best you get the best players you can and surround yourself with the smartest, most talented, hard working people you can. A person should be applauded for that, not knocked for it is all i'm saying. You may not be doing it but that's gone on for years with ungrateful Wings fans.

Why are you acting like we all hate Holland and think he's a horrible GM?

I don't hate him, but there are stuff he does that I don't like care for. Like the unprecidented contract extensions to players who don't deserve them, such as Lilja and Samulesson. Or never really signing any naturally gritty players.

Because that is the PERCEPTION that a lot of people give off in here, whether it is a fair or unfair claim. And I'm not trying to call you out specifically or solely. Holland has a lot of detractors in here that go overboard I think.

I hope nobody tells me in here that he/she hasn't read a post in here in the past that has given off the vibe where they think Holland is absolute garbage and that most of the players he's gotten have been 'handed down'.

We expect things to happen too fast sometimes. It's a crappy side-effect of being a big fan. When Holland doesn't sign the "hot player of the week" to a 4-year deal, it's perceived that he's rubbish by some, even when that player probably isn't of critical importance to the Wings. We're too impatient, generally speaking.

It's like we just want Holland to sign somebody for the sake of it or something to happen just because. And when it doesn't.....BOOM! Holland stinks!

I'm going in a few different directions here but all of it ties down to Holland getting treated unfairly by a lot of fans in here IMO. Is he the greatest general manager ever? To tell you the truth, the heck if I know, cause I don't have a damn clue how to manage a business or that large amount of money. But if Holland were as bad as is sometimes perceived in here, the Wings would have losing seasons year after year.

I know my perceptions don't represent everybody else's in here, but am I just making this stuff up? Am I anywhere close to being on target with my assumptions?

[therock48880 14]

Ok. Let's do that, shall we?

Interesting. Not only did you do EXACTLY what I SAID:

You also did it with more regularity then I could have imagined. Not ONE of your posts contained a comment about this topic that wasn't also paired with a comment about the inherited legacy of Holland.

So, it's almost, and I'm just speculating here so feel free to stop me, like you did exactly what I said you did.

Look, I'm sure you feel that people are ignoring your positive comment on Holland's behavior. But let me give you an illustration of my point:

"Hey Frank. Your wife is a stupid *****, but that dress looks very nice on her."

If Frank punched you afterwards I'd bet it had nothing to do with her dress.

EDIT: Added bold emphasis to the quotes

What don't you understand here? I was saying I can't stand Holland to add emphasis to the fact that I agree with what he's done this year. If anyone in the world is going to find fault with him, it's ME. Yet I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. By the way, everything after my initial post was in response to Eva. Apparantly you'd prefer it if I didn't respond to people's comments?

[eva unit zero 271]

It was more than just those 4 though. He was also the beneficiary of the likes of Maltby, Draper, Holmstrom, and McCarty...key ingredients to a winning club as well. All the main components of a championship team were there when he took over. Thats the point some of us are making. In 2002, im sorry, but that Cup practically fell into his lap like 98 did. Acquiring Dominik Hasek came as a result of Buffalo not being able to afford Hasek any longer, and Detroit, having an "unlimited" payroll and not having to worry about draft picks, was able to pounce on it. It also helps when the rival hefty spender in Colorado already had Patrick Roy. Also, obviously Buffalo wouldnt want to deal him to the Rangers either. As pointed out already, Hull and Robitaille wanted to come here...and with money not being an issue anyway, inking them to deals is not some great GM feat. If it is, then you should be giving the same praise to Brian Burke for signing Scott Neidermayer and Selanne...who both wanted to come to Anaheim. But ive seen you criticize him many times so im feeling you wouldnt.

They've been around a while, and I like the guys very much, but if you think the 1998 or 2002 Wings team would not have won the cup without Homer, Drapes, Maltby, or Mac you're nuts. Those guys were of minimal importance to those teams. The last three could have been replaced by a large number of easily available third line pluggers, and Homer was far from a deal breaker as far as scoring is concerned. Hasek was nearly traded to St. Louis instead of Detroit. Robitaille and Hull wanted to come to Detroit because Detroit was the ONLY TEAM THAT SHOWED INTEREST. To criticize a guy for picking up two strong players that NOBODY ELSE WANTED is mind-boggling. Burke, on the other hand, picked up two players a larg number of teams were pursuing, but only wanted to play for his team. Not the same. Plus Burke is an arrogant ******, and that just pisses me off.

But let's take a look at players who played on the Cup roster Burke acquired in Anaheim: Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, Marchant, Moen, O'Donnell, Thornton, DiPenta, May. If Selanne doesn't ignore other offers and go to Anaheim for a discount, Burke can't trade Fedorov for Beauchemin and Marchant. If Getzlaf, Perry, and Kunitz don't develop the way they do, Burke can't trade Lupul for Pronger. So that means Burke's biggest acquisitions were Moen and O'Donnell. Also, people act as if Holland just added Robitaille, Hasek, and Hull to the 2001 roster, which had just lost a couple of playoff performers in Kozlov and Lapointe.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

What don't you understand here? I was saying I can't stand Holland to add emphasis to the fact that I agree with what he's done this year. If anyone in the world is going to find fault with him, it's ME. Yet I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. By the way, everything after my initial post was in response to Eva. Apparantly you'd prefer it if I didn't respond to people's comments?

Not missing the point at all. I fully understand that. But go back and read my first comment- you can't expect people to just gloss over the background "I hate Holland" facts without responding to them.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

What don't you understand here? I was saying I can't stand Holland to add emphasis to the fact that I agree with what he's done this year. If anyone in the world is going to find fault with him, it's ME. Yet I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. By the way, everything after my initial post was in response to Eva. Apparantly you'd prefer it if I didn't respond to people's comments?

I (WE) understand perfectly. Did you notice the bold-faced comments of yours where you claimed you could be a great GM if you had 87 million or whatever it was..... That was what got me going. Its just another example, maybe passive-aggressively, of a person wanting to knock Holland down for having a blank check.

Would you not use a blank check to its fullest if you were given it?

Would you not work with the best people around if they were available for fear it would make your job look easier?

This is the ludicrous crap people use to knock Holland down. "He has Jimmy D and Stevie" or "He had Illitch's limitless pocketbook"

So having access to money and good people inherently means you aren't as good as you look. ????

The rags had tons of cash for years and sucked giant donkey balls. What does that mean?

Don't discredit Holland (LIKE YOU DID IN YOUR POST) by making veiled claims that his success is due to inheriting great players, or having a blank check or having underlings do all the work for him.

I don't know how many other analogies I can use to get through to you.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

They've been around a while, and I like the guys very much, but if you think the 1998 or 2002 Wings team would not have won the cup without Homer, Drapes, Maltby, or Mac you're nuts. Those guys were of minimal importance to those teams. The last three could have been replaced by a large number of easily available third line pluggers, and Homer was far from a deal breaker as far as scoring is concerned. Hasek was nearly traded to St. Louis instead of Detroit. Robitaille and Hull wanted to come to Detroit because Detroit was the ONLY TEAM THAT SHOWED INTEREST. To criticize a guy for picking up two strong players that NOBODY ELSE WANTED is mind-boggling. Burke, on the other hand, picked up two players a larg number of teams were pursuing, but only wanted to play for his team. Not the same. Plus Burke is an arrogant ******, and that just pisses me off.

But let's take a look at players who played on the Cup roster Burke acquired in Anaheim: Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, Marchant, Moen, O'Donnell, Thornton, DiPenta, May. If Selanne doesn't ignore other offers and go to Anaheim for a discount, Burke can't trade Fedorov for Beauchemin and Marchant. If Getzlaf, Perry, and Kunitz don't develop the way they do, Burke can't trade Lupul for Pronger. So that means Burke's biggest acquisitions were Moen and O'Donnell. Also, people act as if Holland just added Robitaille, Hasek, and Hull to the 2001 roster, which had just lost a couple of playoff performers in Kozlov and Lapointe.

I'll nitpick a little bit and play devil's advocate.

In 1998, McCarty had a fair amount of opening-game goals in the playoffs that really helped the Wings cause, especially in St. Louis. Holmstrom had close to 10 goals in his young years in the playoffs in 1998. I think Detroit's chances of winning the Cup that year were threatened without their production. Same with Holmstrom scoring 8 goals in 2002. There were other contributions as well obviously (Fedorove/Lapointe in '98, Yzerman early in '02/Hull in mid '02, etc.) and I'm not trying to make Mac's or Homer's contributions bigger than they are.

But everything else is pretty much spot on. Just because Holland doesn't always sign "tough guys", he loses credit with a lot of people. Or that he "had" Robitaille and Hull in his lap. I'm no Holland slappie but the unfairness he often gets in here really gets on my nerves. Hasek was pretty close to going to St. Louis at the time IMO.

And remember, Holland wasn't just "handed" Hull. Yzerman and I believe Shanahan deferred some of their current contract money at the time, if I remember hearing correctly from a Freep reporter at the time.

[therock48880 14]

Don't discredit Holland (LIKE YOU DID IN YOUR POST) by making veiled claims that his success is due to inheriting great players, or having a blank check or having underlings do all the work for him.

But that's how I feel. I guess you don't want me to have my own personal opinions if they don't agree with yours. ?????? I DO feel like Holland is overrated because he inherited a GREAT team and was able to go out and sign a ton of great players because the resources were there to do so. Do you feel he would have been as successful in a city that didn't have an almost unlimited amount of money? For example, would the Sabres have done as well with his as GM as the Wings have done since he took over? (notice also, I said he is overrated, not that he sucks).

That was what got me going. Its just another example, maybe passive-aggressively, of a person wanting to knock Holland down for having a blank check.

That was an exagerrated comment to make a point. I realize you can't detect sarcasm in a forum and I apologize for using it. Obviously, you and I can't run an NHL franchise. I consider myself fairly intelligent and a knowledeable hockey fan but there's no way I could run a franchise. I assume you couldn't either.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

But that's how I feel. I guess you don't want me to have my own personal opinions if they don't agree with yours. ?????? I DO feel like Holland is overrated because he inherited a GREAT team and was able to go out and sign a ton of great players because the resources were there to do so. Do you feel he would have been as successful in a city that didn't have an almost unlimited amount of money? For example, would the Sabres have done as well with his as GM as the Wings have done since he took over? (notice also, I said he is overrated, not that he sucks).

That was an exagerrated comment to make a point. I realize you can't detect sarcasm in a forum and I apologize for using it. Obviously, you and I can't run an NHL franchise. I consider myself fairly intelligent and a knowledeable hockey fan but there's no way I could run a franchise. I assume you couldn't either.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it because i've never seen anyone involved with the Wings franchise or any person involved with the NHL or its teams say anything of the sort about him. He gets the utmost respect from GM's around the league. If his peers think he's good at what he does, who are you to think he is overrated?

As for the Buffalo scenario, its a catch 22. Any GM that had the same benefits as Holland you would deem to be overrated. And you can't say for sure what Holland would've done in Buffalo under different circumstances. That's the motherload of hypotheticals and I can't fault a guy for what he hypothetically might do wrong in another city under completely different circumstances. All I can do is approve of the moves I like and frown on the ones I don't or the moves that I wish got made but didn't.

If he were so overrated, wouldn't Illitch and Co. realize that by now? Are they keeping him in place just because? Maybe he's got nekid pictures of Mrs. I or something and is blackmailing them to keep his job.

[therock48880 14]

Plus Burke is an arrogant ******, and that just pisses me off.[/font]

I'm ignoring the rest of your post that I didn't agree with and thought I'd focus on something that we actually agree on! Watching the Ducks win the Cup made me want to throw up, not because of the players, but because of Burke.

Plus the fact that my original point for posting in this thread was to defend Holland this offseason. (I messed up by saying I think he's overrated, though, and that sent things spiralling out of control. I thought it would look good if a self-proclaimed Holland basher was defending him).

[Hemmers 0]

I'm ignoring the rest of your post that I didn't agree with and thought I'd focus on something that we actually agree on! Watching the Ducks win the Cup made me want to throw up, not because of the players, but because of Burke.

Plus the fact that my original point for posting in this thread was to defend Holland this offseason. (I messed up by saying I think he's overrated, though, and that sent things spiralling out of control. I thought it would look good if a self-proclaimed Holland basher was defending him).

But Burke is the bestest GM in the entire NHL! Didn't you hear, everything he touches turns to gold!

As for this offseason, Holland has my respect for not throwing ridiculous numbers at some of the UFA forwards on the market; same reason I'm happy with what my GM (Lowe) has done so far, because as much as I'd like to see Briere in an Oilers jersey, I'd rather not see it at the price he got.

Next year's UFA crop should be very good, and this time there won't be as many people in the running.