Why no Enforcer in Motown?

[Guest Crymson]

all of the forwards on this team are 6'0 180lbs. There is no guy on this roster that will drop the gloves and prove that making a run at one of our players is a mistake.

I have watched so many games this past season and seen so many guys get away with hits on our little sweethearts datsyuk and zetterberg and nobody being able to stick up for them.

The sunday afternoon game against Colorado was a perfect example. Lapierriere taking runs at datsyuk, then maltby PUSHING him, oh boy he pushed him, Ian wants to fight, maltby of course wouldent drop the gloves cuz he just likes to push and talk s***.

Maltby wouldn't drop the gloves because he's one punch in the eye away from blindness.

Please put your foot in your mouth.

Who knows more about hockey than anyone on here. Answer: Scotty Bowman. Why did Bowman go out and pull Kocer from the beer league. It wasn't to necessarily fight and it certainly wasn't to score goals. It was about intimidation. One aspect I think people are overlooking is how this affects the skilled players. When a player is entering the offensive zone is he worried about someone taking his head off ? How aggressive is he being checked. The less aggressive the defenders are the more room and freedom the offensive players have. It's about more than fighting.

Do you honestly think that Anaheim would have taken so many cheap shots if Kocer or someone of the like was on the bench. Think about it, when Shanahan would drive the net and be in front of the goalie after a play ended how many players would push him away or cross check him. Not many. Most would just skate away.

I remember Kocer coming onto the ice and seeing fear in the eyes of the other team. Believe me it does have an impact.

I want our skilled players making plays not thinking of their safety. When I mention the space the defenders are giving the opposing player an inch or two can make a big difference.

You remember that hockey from 20 years ago. These days, Kocur (nice spelling, btw) would quickly find himself on the butt-end of a long suspension and a hefty fine.

[sticknmove 0]

"Maltby wouldn't drop the gloves because he's one punch in the eye away from blindness"

Well with all this talk about 'wasting spots' on tough guys i think we should all be a little more concerned with wasting spots on guys 1 punch away from blindness.

"George Parros and Andrew Peters did almost precisely jacksh*t for their respective teams. Parros, in particular, hardly even played during the playoffs. You are vastly overstating the impact of these players, who in addition to being relatively frequent healthy scratches also pretty much never scored or contributed in any significant way."

blah blah blah the Parros argument is spent bro. Instead lets talk about Travis Moen, a gritty, enforcer type who had 11 goals and 10 assists all year not to mention 10 FM's and 101 Peanlty Minutes. What did this 'waste of roster spot" do in the playoffs, OH YA 7 goals and 5 assists. Character guy, role player, fighter, not the most impressive numbers but a team guy and look what happens he turns out to be arguably one of their mvp's in the playoffs.

Who would I want, I would love a guy like Josh Gratton, DJ King, Chris Thorburn, John Erskine, Triston Grant, etc. There are a ton of fully capable NHL players who can play the 3-4th line and throw the fists.

[Guest Crymson]

blah blah blah the Parros argument is spent bro. Instead lets talk about Travis Moen, a gritty, enforcer type who had 11 goals and 10 assists all year not to mention 10 FM's and 101 Peanlty Minutes. What did this 'waste of roster spot" do in the playoffs, OH YA 7 goals and 5 assists. Character guy, role player, fighter, not the most impressive numbers but a team guy and look what happens he turns out to be arguably one of their mvp's in the playoffs.

Who would I want, I would love a guy like Josh Gratton, DJ King, Chris Thorburn, John Erskine, Triston Grant, etc. There are a ton of fully capable NHL players who can play the 3-4th line and throw the fists.

Great--find us a guy like Travis Moen and I'm sure everyone will be happy to take him. I believe you're missing the point, which is that nobody like that is available.

None of the guys you've mentioned are even remotely in Moen's league, and that is the reason they are available.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Crymson

[sticknmove 0]

"You remember that hockey from 20 years ago. These days, Kocur (nice spelling, btw) would quickly find himself on the butt-end of a long suspension and a hefty fine."

BULLSH*T the number of suspensions due to stick swinging, hits from behind, knee to knee hits, and elbows to the head have skyrocketed since the instigator was added. 20 years ago that garbage wasnt prevalent because guys like Kocur would knock your front teeth out if you took advantage of a skill guy on his team

"Great--find us a guy like Travis Moen and I'm sure everyone will be happy to take him.

None of the guys you've mentioned are even remotely in Moen's league."

hahaha Asham had better numbers then him all years, and the years past and you just said Asham wasnt the guy. If it wasnt for moens playoff showing you would have so much sh*t to talk if i came on the board and said we need a guy like travis moen.

"None of the guys you've mentioned are even remotely in Moen's league, and that is the reason they are available."

wow you are sharp, wait, no...Not one of the guys I mentioned is available, nice try though

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[Kp-Wings 3]

Ah yes... the ever popular enforcer discussion... it's a LGW classic!

Now, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I really wish the Wings did have someone who is willing to drop the gloves on a regular basis (not a one-hit wonder like Lilja). This is why I've advocated guys like Asham and Hall: they can both play the game with decent skill, and fight on a regular basis.

But, I seriously doubt Holland will ever pick up anybody like that ever again. Why? He's so set on having the Wings win a Stanley Cup with a predominantly European team with very little to no toughness. Very slim chance that will ever happen though, since it has never been done before.

Oh well. It's been the same thing since the lockout ended. I guess it just challenges Babcock to see if he can get these guys to play tough on a regular basis. One playoff year does not qualify as a regular basis. We'll see how these guys do next season.

[sticknmove 0]

Shawn Thorton would be a nice, cheap pickup. A guy that can stand in there with any body in the league and he can play. You asked who I would get and this is my answer.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Shawn Thorton would be a nice, cheap pickup. A guy that can stand in there with any body in the league and he can play. You asked who I would get and this is my answer.

Already signed by the Boston Bruins.

http://bruins.nhl.com/team/app?page=Player...mp;service=page

[Guest Crymson]

Ah yes... the ever popular enforcer discussion... it's a LGW classic!

Now, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I really wish the Wings did have someone who is willing to drop the gloves on a regular basis (not a one-hit wonder like Lilja). This is why I've advocated guys like Asham and Hall: they can both play the game with decent skill, and fight on a regular basis.

But, I seriously doubt Holland will ever pick up anybody like that ever again. Why? He's so set on having the Wings win a Stanley Cup with a predominantly European team with very little to no toughness. Very slim chance that will ever happen though, since it has never been done before.

Oh well. It's been the same thing since the lockout ended. I guess it just challenges Babcock to see if he can get these guys to play tough on a regular basis. One playoff year does not qualify as a regular basis. We'll see how these guys do next season.

Gee, what a surprise--Kp-Wings is back with his typical act, prejudicing against Europeans and thinking that he somehow knows more about the team's needs and reality than does Ken Holland.

This act, especially the former part mentioned, is getting old.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Gee, what a surprise--Kp-Wings is back with his typical act, prejudicing against Europeans and thinking that he somehow knows more about the team's needs and reality than does Ken Holland.

This act, especially the former part mentioned, is getting old.

Oh gee, what a surprise: Crymson being an *******.

Get over yourself. This is a fan forum. Everyone has their own opinions. Stop trying to dictate what people can and cannot say. You're not a mod, nor an admin.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Guest Crymson]

There's this fella by the name of Wayne Gretzky - had a pretty good career in the NHL...Had a few gents looking after him throughout most of his career

He was also such a scoring machine that teams both needed to and were able to afford spending roster spots on people whose jobs were solely to defend him.

McSorely, however, was very capable of scoring.

Oh gee, what a surprise: Crymson being an *******.

Get over yourself. This is a fan forum. Everyone has their own opinions. Stop trying to dictate what people can and cannot say. You're not a mod, nor an admin.

Oh, gee, what a surprise: Kp-Wings pulled the "you're not an admin" card on me.

If you can find me one place in which I even imply that I feel you don't have the right to say certain things on this forum, or that I feel I have the power to tell you what you can or cannot say here, then I will slam my foot in the door. Until then, you're only making yourself silly by bringing this point out again and again.

"I find this constant babble tiresome" does not equal "you cannot say that here," except in your mind. As is, you're only proving my point, as you're pretty much telling ME what to do. Funny.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Crymson

[sticknmove 0]

"Gee, what a surprise--Kp-Wings is back with his typical act, prejudicing against Europeans and thinking that he somehow knows more about the team's needs and reality than does Ken Holland."

euros are good for speed and goals, not grit and dig. its not prejudice son its a fact. I love our little euro highlight reels, zett is the future of the team. however when i am looking for toughness i tend to find the pickings slim in the euro player pool. and dont bother mentioning every tough euro that has played, i know there has been some. but they are the moniority not the majority of the group

Thortons gone huh, dang. F*ck it lets sign Reed Low he can give the entire 2nd line a piggy back ride to the Bus after the game if its cold out

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[Kp-Wings 3]

Oh, gee, what a surprise: Kp-Wings pulled the "you're not an admin" card on me.

If you can find me one place in which I even imply that I feel you don't have the right to say certain things on this forum, or that I feel I have the power to tell you what you can or cannot say here, then I will slam my foot in the door. Until then, you're only making yourself silly by bringing this point out again and again.

You basically act that way everytime someone says something negative.

You know, I didn't realize that Matt changed the name of this forum from LetsGoWings.com to BlindhomerWingsfans.com. God forbid I actually question the great Ken Holland, and actually have an opinion on a fan forum. If we all thank like you, we'd all be blind homers.

But why should I bother? All arguing with you does is feeding the trolls. All you like to do is get into arguments with people because they don't have their heads shoved up Ken Hollands ass and are spoonfeeding him compliments like he's the God of all GM's ever to exist in pro sports.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Arron Asham is 5'11 210lbs, and Robert Lang had more PIMS then him last year... Hardly the guy to make any player shake in their boots.

Sorry guys, Asham is not the answer to our enforcer 'problem'.

And sticknmove...Reed Low? The guy has fewer then a handful of goals in 250 games played. He doesnt even belong in the NHL. There is no roster spot for him on the Wings.

Look if there was a guy like Dave Semenko out there, i'd say heck yeah sign him. There is no one worth signing to a regular roster spot at this point for Holland.

[skacore 2]

Arron Asham is 5'11 210lbs, and Robert Lang had more PIMS then him last year... Hardly the guy to make any player shake in their boots.

Sorry guys, Asham is not the answer to our enforcer 'problem'.

And sticknmove...Reed Low? The guy has fewer then a handful of goals in 250 games played. He doesnt even belong in the NHL. There is no roster spot for him on the Wings.

Look if there was a guy like Dave Semenko out there, i'd say heck yeah sign him. There is no one worth signing to a regular roster spot at this point for Holland.

Asham is 5'11 210 what's your point? He may not be the biggest guy but he is obviously built. 25 points a year, a heavy forecheck, he can skate, and he is a great fighter. Lang had 30 more hooking penalties what's your point? Asham had 5 fights last year (3 wins and 2 great battles with Cam Janssen), even though he had a hand injury for a good part of the season (he still played), but his low PIM is a bad thing? Have you ever seen Arron Asham play, or did you just hockeydb.com his stats, just curious?

Edited July 19, 2007 by skacore

[sticknmove 0]

Well I wouldnt be signing Reed Low to score so I could care less wether or not he has any career goals.

asham doesnt lose fights though, you are right he is a very selective spot picker. anyways he re-signed with the Islanders.

So I guess its final. I would like to be the first of many to prematurly give Reed Low a warm Detroit Red Wings welcome

*or Ryan Malone with a outside chance of a Chris Simon*

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[skacore 2]

asham doesnt lose fights though, you are right he is a very selective spot picker. anyways he re-signed with the Islanders.

since when? do you have a source?

[sticknmove 0]

Nevermind I was wrong it was an archived article from when they signed him to a 1 yr deal last year.

*ASHAM PLEASE*

Nov 28, 2003 2pd 15:46 NYI @ DET Jason Williams

Voted winner: Arron Asham (100.0%)

Dec 26, 2003 2pd 12:24 NYI @ NJD David Hale

Voted winner: Arron Asham (90.0%)

Jan 01, 2004 3pd 08:18 NYI @ OTT Chris Neil

Voted winner: Arron Asham (54.5%)

Jan 29, 2004 2pd 19:42 NYI @ BOS Jiri Slegr

Voted winner: Arron Asham (100.0%)

Feb 18, 2004 1pd 14:01 @ NYI PIT Tom Kostopoulos

Voted winner: Arron Asham (95.6%)

Feb 19, 2004 3pd 18:32 NYI @ NYR Matt Barnaby

Voted winner: Arron Asham (95.1%)

Mar 27, 2004 3pd 00:53 @ NYI CAR Craig Adams

Voted winner: Arron Asham (82.1%)

Nov 10, 2005 1pd 15:32 NYI @ PHI Mike Richards

Voted winner: Arron Asham (92.8%)

Feb 11, 2006 1pd 02:54 NYI @ NJD Cam Janssen

**DRAW: 1 of these 2 CLASSIC BATTLES**

Nov 02, 2006 1pd 02:47 NYI @ NJD Cam Janssen

**DRAW IN THE 2ND BATTLE**

Nov 09, 2006 1pd 17:51 NYI @ PHI Mike Richards

Voted winner: Arron Asham (62.5%)

Nov 22, 2006 3pd 11:48 @ NYI CAR Craig Adams

Voted winner: Arron Asham (94.9%)

Feb 17, 2007 1pd 03:12 @ NYI NJD Cam Janssen

*WOW PLEASE SIGN THIS GUY*

Feb 27, 2007 2pd 06:29 @ NYI PHI Darren Reid

Voted winner: Arron Asham (91.6%)

This is our guy, I know we won't get him but I am telling you we sign this kid we are set. KENNY PLEASE!

"Arron Asham is 5'11 210lbs, and Robert Lang had more PIMS then him last year... Hardly the guy to make any player shake in their boots. "

Speaks for himself in the showing against top 5 Heavyweight Cam Jansen. Do some research before you say things like this

Edited July 19, 2007 by sticknmove

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

But, I seriously doubt Holland will ever pick up anybody like that ever again. Why? He's so set on having the Wings win a Stanley Cup with a predominantly European team with very little to no toughness. Very slim chance that will ever happen though, since it has never been done before.

Oh well. It's been the same thing since the lockout ended. I guess it just challenges Babcock to see if he can get these guys to play tough on a regular basis. One playoff year does not qualify as a regular basis. We'll see how these guys do next season.

This "sof tteam of European wusses" almost went to the SCF last year, not primarily because of lack of toughness or lack of desire or lack of effort.

Unless Babcock's I.Q. just tumbled overnight, he's not going to change his coaching methods. He won't let them slack off, and I highly doubt the desire and work ethic of the players is going to disappear anytime soon, because a lot of the current players on the roster haven't won a Stanley Cup either.

Now, can we please all drop the all Europeans are soft stereotype as it holds no merit, as well as acting like little 10-year old policeman jerks to each other and keep this thread civil?

Edited July 19, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[FinRedWing 172]

Should Detroit carry an Enforcer?

Why discuss,I thought we agreed that the Wings are too classy?

Edited July 19, 2007 by FinRedWing

[Heaton 1]

Oh well. It's been the same thing since the lockout ended. I guess it just challenges Babcock to see if he can get these guys to play tough on a regular basis. One playoff year does not qualify as a regular basis. We'll see how these guys do next season.

Make sure you use this montra for every team then. Just curious, how many playoff years does make it a regular basis? If not one, it surely can't be two, so Anaheim can't be the standard.

I just don't understand why you're so hellbent on completely dismissing what this team did last year, along with virtually everyone else in this thread. It almost seems disrespectful to the team.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Heaton

[therock48880 14]

all of the forwards on this team are 6'0 180lbs. There is no guy on this roster that will drop the gloves and prove that making a run at one of our players is a mistake.

I have watched so many games this past season and seen so many guys get away with hits on our little sweethearts datsyuk and zetterberg and nobody being able to stick up for them.

The sunday afternoon game against Colorado was a perfect example. Lapierriere taking runs at datsyuk, then maltby PUSHING him, oh boy he pushed him, Ian wants to fight, maltby of course wouldent drop the gloves cuz he just likes to push and talk s***.

This is my biggest concern, not so much the fighting, but the lack of size. I looked at their roster during the season two years ago and Jimmy Howard was the second biggest red wing after Lilja. That's ridiculous. Whether people like it or not, intimidation is a part of hockey and always will be. Last year Schneider was quoted as saying he liked having a "nuclear weapon" on the team when he was asked about Norton's chances of making the team. I know he's only one example of someone who is speaking his mind on the subject but I would imagine most, if not all, of the players feel that way.

[Heaton 1]

This is my biggest concern, not so much the fighting, but the lack of size. I looked at their roster during the season two years ago and Jimmy Howard was the second biggest red wing after Lilja. That's ridiculous. Whether people like it or not, intimidation is a part of hockey and always will be. Last year Schneider was quoted as saying he liked having a "nuclear weapon" on the team when he was asked about Norton's chances of making the team. I know he's only one example of someone who is speaking his mind on the subject but I would imagine most, if not all, of the players feel that way.

Was intimidation why the Wings lost last year?

[StevieY9802 6]

Was intimidation why the Wings lost last year?

No it wasn't. It was a few bounces that didn't go there way.

And no there is no need for an enforcer. Would Stu Grimson or a player like him done anything? He would have been sitting on the bench come playoff time. Was Brad May, all though he brings slightly more than what a Grimson would, the reason the Ducks won? No. I thought Bert was the type of player the Wings were looking for, someone who could score but could handle his own physically, and I can't blame them for not giving him a longer deal than one year with all the FA's coming up next year. But an enforcer doesn't do much in today's nhl.

Edited July 19, 2007 by StevieY9802

[therock48880 14]

Was intimidation why the Wings lost last year?

You're great at basing things off one playoff run. And it makes me laugh how everyone views last year's run as such a resounding success. They LOST. To me, that's not a success, sorry. Personally, I couldn't care less about winning President's trophies (I realize they didn't do that last year either) and losing before the Stanley Cup Finals. I think that's where a lot of the disputes are coming from on here. Many seem satisfied with last year; I'm not.

And yes, I believe intimidation did play a part in their loss to the Ducks. Holmstrom was a beast until he took the hit from Pronger. Very quiet afterwards, though. We can play the "if" game forever but I believe that IF the wings would have had someone to stand up to that jackass, he wouldn't have gone into Homer with his elbows so high. IF Holmstrom doesn't get hurt and continued to be a dominating force, the Wings win that series, IMO. The Sens would have been a cakewalk. Notice I didn't say that's the ONLY reason they lost to the Ducks. The Ducks did get a lot of bounces, but as Scotty once said, you make your own luck, and I was less than impressed with the officiating. There were several factors working against the Wings and I do believe intimidation was one of them. I mean, how many times did we hear Babcock preach that the Wings have to get to the net? Numerous. How many times did anyone (other than Holmstrom who took a wicked shot from Pronger as a result) even bump into Giggy? On the other end, how many times did Hasek get run? Hasek was hit repeatedly and nothing was done about it, Giggy was never hit. Coincidence? I think not.

[N4C3R 0]

Many seem satisfied with last year; I'm not.

And yes, I believe intimidation did play a part in their loss to the Ducks. Holmstrom was a beast until he took the hit from Pronger. Very quiet afterwards, though. We can play the "if" game forever but I believe that IF the wings would have had someone to stand up to that jackass, he wouldn't have gone into Homer with his elbows so high. IF Holmstrom doesn't get hurt and continued to be a dominating force, the Wings win that series, IMO. The Sens would have been a cakewalk. Notice I didn't say that's the ONLY reason they lost to the Ducks. The Ducks did get a lot of bounces, but as Scotty once said, you make your own luck, and I was less than impressed with the officiating. There were several factors working against the Wings and I do believe intimidation was one of them. I mean, how many times did we hear Babcock preach that the Wings have to get to the net? Numerous. How many times did anyone (other than Holmstrom who took a wicked shot from Pronger as a result) even bump into Giggy? On the other end, how many times did Hasek get run? Hasek was hit repeatedly and nothing was done about it, Giggy was never hit. Coincidence? I think not.

I think you make good points here, and I agree with you on the intimidation factor being a turning point in this series. Holmstrom was absolutely destroyed by Niedermayer and Pronger, and there wasn't a damn thing the Wings did about it. If we had a guy like Arron Asham I have to believe he would have at some point during the game (or series) grabbed a hold of Pronger to feed him a knuckle sandwich or two. It isn't always about winning the fight, sometimes you just have to be willing to drop the gloves to stand up for yourself or your team. As long as Detroit continues to NOT drop the gloves in that capacity, I will continue to lobby for an Enforcer.

For anyone who doesn't think Detroit needs a Fighter or an Enforcer, please tell me who answered the bell last year when the time came to stand up for the team? Don't even think I'm bagging on Lilja, I'm not and quite frankly he's one of my favorite guys on the team. Detroit showed their resilience and toughness last year, but they also showed me they're not ready to stand up for each other like they should. Until guys are willing to do their part to protect their teammates, we're going to need an enforcer to do it for us.

Anybody else tired of the Wings being pushed around?