Burke's gaff

[Lou_Siffer 1]

The best thing Burke did was getting rid of the salaries of Federov and Sykora. It allowed him to be flexible in the long-run and bring in Pronger and retain Giguere. You can't discount that. He's done a very good job.

Agreed. The Fedorov trade was a catalyst to them getting the Cup imo. Aside from the salary dump, which was the main purpose of the trade, they ended up getting a key player in return. Usually when someone has such a bad contract, its difficult to get much of a return,...so Beauchemin was a huge bonus. That propelled them to the West Finals, which in turn made Burke go for the over the top move in acquiring Pronger the following offseason. Thats not to say it isnt entirely possible they couldve signed a big name FA defenseman rather than trade for Pronger and still won it all...but we'll never know.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

It's much more likely Lowe's gaffe will haunt him. Because even if Penner turns into a pretty good, solid player for the Oilers, those 3 picks could yield more good players, or a better player even than Penner . And since the OIlers aren't probably going to be very good again this next year, their 1st Rounder wil be a pretty good pick.

Or to be a little more blunt -- Penner is just way overhyped to begin with and I'd be very surprised if he is even able to replicate this past season in any team situation.

Burke's comfortable with the picks, and he should be.

-- Primis.

Very unlikely.

The best thing Burke did was getting rid of the salaries of Federov and Sykora. It allowed him to be flexible in the long-run and bring in Pronger and retain Giguere. You can't discount that. He's done a very good job.

Bringing in Pronger and retaining Burke does not = a very good job when he also lost Penner (whom he wouldnt have had to pay 4.3M if hed gotten his act together sooner), signed Bertuzzi to a fat contract for 2 years for doing all of scoring 3 goals in the regular season (and still being a question mark in terms of health), and signing Mathieu Schneider to a contract of only 500k less than what Niedermayer was making.

Burke's tenure has been rocky AT BEST and the fact that he is the Stanley Cup Champion (of essentially Brian Murrays team) is the thing thats blurring everybodys vision.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Very unlikely.

Bringing in Pronger and retaining Burke does not = a very good job when he also lost Penner (whom he wouldnt have had to pay 4.3M if hed gotten his act together sooner), signed Bertuzzi to a fat contract for 2 years for doing all of scoring 3 goals in the regular season (and still being a question mark in terms of health), and signing Mathieu Schneider to a contract of only 500k less than what Niedermayer was making.

Burke's tenure has been rocky AT BEST and the fact that he is the Stanley Cup Champion (of essentially Brian Murrays team) is the thing thats blurring everybodys vision.

Replacing Niedermayer with Schneider I understand. Assuming he's retiring (which it sounded like at the time) that's a big hole in the blueline and Mathieu was available.

But signing Bert for $4 million before you have Penner locked up is the part I don't get. Either Burke knows something about Penner the rest of the hockey world doesn't, or he was blinded by his man love for Bertuzzi.

I hope Bertuzzi is a washout so I can laugh about how Burke screwed himself by raiding other team's UFA's. Along the same lines, I hope Penner lights it up in Edmonton.

[HenryMalredo 2]

I"d have to agree that the Ducks would be better off with Penner than Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi is no longer a first line player at this stage of his career and has been dealing with injuries while Penner has some potential. But not matching the offer was something the Ducks had to do. Penner has some potential to get better, but probably not much. He's a bit older than other players with his limited experience, and even in his big "breakout" season, he only scored 45 points. He'll probably be a solid 2nd line player, but never an elite one. And he certainly doesn't have the potential of Corey Perry, Ryan Getzlaf, and Bobby Ryan. I'd also be very suprised to see Penner flourish on a sinking Edmonton team.

[2probert4 8]

Exactly. Burke hardly had a hand in bringing anybody on the current Cup team. His biggest aquisition was Pronger, which was good, but after that it's cut and dry. Depending on who you ask, his next biggest trade aquisition was either Todd Marchant or Brad May.

Niedermayer decided he was going to Anaheim before Burke was there. The young kids like Getzlaf, Perry, and Penner, were all drafted (or in Penner's case signed) when Murray was still the GM.

Burke is so overrated, it's not even funny. He was a horrible GM in Vancouver, and he's still a horrible GM now in my opinion. I can't wait to see the Bertuzzi signing blow up in his face, so everybody will shut up about how great Brian Burke is a GM, because he's not.

I have friends in Vancouver, and they claim that he brought the Nucks to greatness, but im overlooking their entry on the past Stanley Cup winners list. That team wasn't in good shape when he left it, Luongo carried that squad, this season , but that's another story for another thread.

[eva unit zero 271]

The point is I dont see how you can make the assumption that Smid would be the equal to what Beauchemin was last year...especially considering he played very well. Could he turn out to be better in the future? Maybe, who the hell knows, but we're talking about last year's team. Present day it is without a shadow of a doubt - Beauchemin > Smid..until proven otherwise. As for the other guys, Pronger's value is so much more than Fedorov's its ridiculous. Lupul is definitely better than Marchant obviously, but that difference doesnt come close to equaling the difference from Pronger/Beauchemin vs Fedorov/Smid.

Key words. This is about who wouldve been better for Anaheim on last year's team. I assume that you wouldnt call that equal?

I said had Smid been given the opportunity...meaning had Smid been given that open spot on the Ducks defense when they decided to trade Fedorov. Smid played almost as well as Beauchemin on many nights last year, and Smid was a rookie. It's not much of a jump to suggest that Smid could have developed at a faster rate given top four NHL ice time like Beauchemin was. When the Fedorov trade was made, Smid may have been one of the four best defensemen in the Ducks system at the time.

The Ducks at the end of 05-06 had a top six defense consisting of Niedermayer, Salei, Beauchemin, Vishnevsky, O'Donnell, and Dipenta. I would take Smid over O'Donnell or Dipenta even in 2005. So realistically, Smid could have been given the top-four opportunity instead of Beauchemin. But ultimately, if you include all the players who were sent packing because of the two trades, and incorporate the layers used to fill space, you come up with something more like the following in/out scenario:

Fedorov, Lupul, Salei, Vishnevsky, Smid for Marchant, Thornton, Pronger, Beauchemin, and Huskins. As stated before, I would take the unit that went out over the unit that came in. Four top-half players and a top prospect for two top-half players and three space-fillers.

I have friends in Vancouver, and they claim that he brought the Nucks to greatness, but im overlooking their entry on the past Stanley Cup winners list. That team wasn't in good shape when he left it, Luongo carried that squad, this season , but that's another story for another thread.

It's funny, because Vancouver fans say Keenan was horrible and Burke was great, when a majority of the quality players and thus the moderate success Burke enjoyed were the result of moves made in the Keenan era or before.

It's like how people get in arguments about Holland. Holland is a fine GM, and has done a wonderful job in keeping the team together and contending through the loss of quite a few star players, but he didn't really do much for his first Cup win. Those crediting Burke with such a good job should look to Holland for a comparable situation.

[2probert4 8]

Bowman AND Holland walked into a situation such as that. Murray had built most of that team prior to Bowman.

[Manoir 70]

Burke's tenure has been rocky AT BEST and the fact that he is the Stanley Cup Champion (of essentially Brian Murrays team) is the thing thats blurring everybodys vision.

How can you say that? He overhauled the team and made it much tougher to play against by getting rid of floaters like Federov and Sykora. I think Murray was the one who signed Federov to that horrible contract that would have plagued the team for years to come had no one been willing to take him.

The thing I like best about Burke is he is willing to give up some real talent in trades to improve his team,whether it was Bure/Federov/Lupul etc. All Holland seems willing to do is sign UFA's or make deadline deals where he is not willing to part with much (and thus not acquire the elite players).

Edited August 5, 2007 by Manoir

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I have to disagree, you should sign your young RFA's first before going to raid other peoples talent. I would take Penner right now over Bertuzzi. Penner wouldn't have cost him what Edmonton is paying him. Burke is already trying to TRADE that #1 that he just received. You take care of business at home before going to raid other teams talent, which is what he did in Bertuzzi and Schneider. He still doesn't know what Selanne and Neids are doing , this one is a botched effort by Burke, who in my opinion, is a very overrated GM. Look at his past track record before someone starts flaming me.

I agree with Legionairre on this one. You have to take the picks considering the Oilers overpaid for Penner. You can't cut that any other way, they seriously overpaid.

Now as for Burke, yeah you should sign your RFA's but who is to say Penner was ready to sign, who is to say he didn't want to test the RFA water, who is to say Burke tried or not? Burke had some issues to deal with. Granted the Bert signing isn't a popular one by most WIngs fans assessment, I look at it this way: They lost Penner but added Bertuzzi and have Bobby Ryan coming up. IMO, Ryan is a true power forward. Penner squeaked his way into the league. Ryan is highly touted and tough as nails, tougher than Penner IMO. Out with Penner, In with Bert and Ryan and 3 draft picks? I think that's an easy choice given the circumstances.

[Heaton 1]

I haven't really heard Lou's full opinion on Burke, but it seems that he believes Burke is some how on another level in terms of being a better GM than Holland. In his sig he basically dashes all Holland's accomplishments since he became GM, so let's look at what Burke has done:

Burke inherited a team that already had his core of young players, he inherited a team with Rob Niedermayer who basically was a magnet for his brother Scott, so not really any effort there, no other teams really had a chance. Prior to that he traded Fedorov, well, not surprising since Burke really is almost a carbon copy of Don Cherry in that he hates Euros. So he gets praised for trading him to a team that desperately needed a player to try and validate their francise. Obviously it hasn't worked that well, but Fedorov wasn't going to propel either team to the next level at his age.

Then Burke got Pronger, decent trade, but not necessarily a hard one. Who else was seriously in discussion to get him other than the Ducks? Really easy to make the trade when your stable is stocked full and no one else could really compete with it. After that he lost one of his good young players because he decided to go "Ken Holland" and sign an older, familiar player to a large contract.

I understand people don't like Holland and I understand that people don't agree with the players that Holland has added or not added. But it's not just blind and ignorant people all around the NHL who actually believe that Holland is one of the best GM's in the league, because he is. I'm not going to go as far to say in Holland I trust, but there's few other GM's in the league who I'd want running this team. We have a team in Detroit not in cap hell, without players making more than they really should to the extent that they're hampering the team or not able to be traded. We're in great position in the future and have a vision that is working. We have a great coach who is getting this team to play a style that works in the playoffs.

Holland is not impervious to criticism but to discount everything he's doing just because we're not icing a team that is some people's ideal is for lack of a better word, lame and it's hard not to dismiss their arguments because of that fact. This organization has more than just one man running the show and because of that I find it very hard to believe that if people like Jimmy D, Jim Nill, Steve Yzerman, Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock truely thought that the makeup of the team was incapable of winning the cup it would be different, but at this point without sounding like I'm too blindly following them, I'll trust them. That doesn't mean I won't be critical if they do something I don't agree with, but it does mean that I'm not going to look down my nose at every move they make.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I understand people don't like Holland and I understand that people don't agree with the players that Holland has added or not added. But it's not just blind and ignorant people all around the NHL who actually believe that Holland is one of the best GM's in the league, because he is. I'm not going to go as far to say in Holland I trust, but there's few other GM's in the league who I'd want running this team. We have a team in Detroit not in cap hell, without players making more than they really should to the extent that they're hampering the team or not able to be traded. We're in great position in the future and have a vision that is working. We have a great coach who is getting this team to play a style that works in the playoffs.

Holland is not impervious to criticism but to discount everything he's doing just because we're not icing a team that is some people's ideal is for lack of a better word, lame and it's hard not to dismiss their arguments because of that fact. This organization has more than just one man running the show and because of that I find it very hard to believe that if people like Jimmy D, Jim Nill, Steve Yzerman, Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock truely thought that the makeup of the team was incapable of winning the cup it would be different, but at this point without sounding like I'm too blindly following them, I'll trust them. That doesn't mean I won't be critical if they do something I don't agree with, but it does mean that I'm not going to look down my nose at every move they make.

I understand what you're getting at.

I don't hate Holland, and if it comes off like I do, then I apologize. I do have a problem with some of the moves he makes though.

Like signing Dallas Drake for example. Mind you, I love the game Drake plays. But the fact that the guy is 38 years old, and has injury problems, wouldn't it have made sense to sign someone else? I mean, Arron Asham or Adam Hall are both much younger, neither have injury problems, and play the same type of game. They'd both come for just as cheap as Drake did. Why not sign them?

One of my problems with Holland is he has the cliche to the players that he signs: they usually fall under one of these catagories:

1. They have, at one point in their career, played with the Wings no matter how long ago. He has this thing about bringing back guys that were former Wings, which I don't get.

2. They have suffered a major injury, and haven't been full time roster players in a while due to this. Examples: Bertuzzi, Drake, Norton, etc.

3. They are coming off of terrible seasons, or are at the very tail end of their careers. Examples: Calder, Bertuzzi, Drake, Lilja, Samulesson, Norton, etc.

4. Usually they are small, most of the time under 6'0. Now, I'm not saying going out and sign about 6'6 dinosaur's, but it makes no sense to sign a bunch of guys that are barely hovering around 5'10. It makes the Wings easy to be beaten up by teams like Anaheim.

There might be others I might have missed as far as the charecteristics go, but you have to admit, usually the guys he brings in usually fall into 1 of those 4 catagories.

My other problem with Holland is his refusel to sign a *decent* fighter. I love fighting in hockey. Growing up in a time period with guys who fought a lot, like Kocur, Dmac, Probert, Vladdy, etc., I've grown used to seeing it. Now, the Wings really have nobody that will do it on a full time basis, which I don't like.

...and unlike Lou, I don't want one purly for entertainment sake. The Wings need someone to drop the gloves and defend each other. You said before you don't feel it's an important part of the team to have the guys defend each other, but I do. And I'm sticking to it.

I'm not completely anti-Holland, much to what people here accuse me of on a regular basis. I loved the Rafalski signing, since he's a way better player than Schneider was, and fills up the hole quite well with an expierenced guy who can play the PP, PK, etc. It's a lot better then throwing in some young guy like Kronwall or Lebda that has very little to no exiperence at that role.

Also, even though I did point out there were better choices, I still do like the Drake signing. He does help the Wings become grittier, and we finally have a forward who will hit guys on a full-time basis. We haven't had a player who will do that up-front since the pre-lockout version of Shanny.

I don't completely hate Holland. I do give him credit where it is due, but I also criticize him where it is due also. The way he's built the Wings has been less then ideal, so I've been overly critical of him recently. I hope soon he'll change my thoughts by signing another player, which we need at this point.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[eva unit zero 271]

How can you say that? He overhauled the team and made it much tougher to play against by getting rid of floaters like Federov and Sykora. I think Murray was the one who signed Federov to that horrible contract that would have plagued the team for years to come had no one been willing to take him.

The thing I like best about Burke is he is willing to give up some real talent in trades to improve his team,whether it was Bure/Federov/Lupul etc. All Holland seems willing to do is sign UFA's or make deadline deals where he is not willing to part with much (and thus not acquire the elite players).

Hmm...Let's look at something. Elite players acquired by Burke via trade in Van/Ana....Chris Pronger. Elite players acquired by Holland via trade..Chris Chelios, Dominik Hasek, Robert Lang....where again is Burke picking up more elite players?

[eva unit zero 271]

Ummm - you forgot to add Ulf Sammuelsson, Wendel Clark, Todd Bertuzzi, Cory Cross, & Kyle Calder......Oh wait; you said elite players

It's funny that you bring those five guys up as a slam on Holland, given that the "standard" slam is that he doesn't acquire gritty players, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE GUYS was acquired due to his gritty, chipy playing style. I guess wit hthe Holland bashers there is no winning. It's either that he doesn't acquire grit, or when he does, they're not ALSO an elite player. Well, except for Chelios.

[eva unit zero 271]

Wasn't a slam on Holland; just being a smarta$$

For what it's worth it appears most deadline additions by any team don't work out as well as hoped; though Chelios is 1 fine example of it working out quite well to say the least.

For a deadline acquisition to 'work out', the team, assuming it's a contender already, needs to have luck and health in the playoffs. Detroit LIKELY would have won the Cup had Schneider not had a freak injury late in the San Jose series. Obviously Detroit COULD have added a defenseman at the deadline, but at the time adding a defenseman seemed like an excessive move. Then two of the team's top three defensemen had their season ended by injury, AFTER the deadline. If Kronwall and/or Schneider had not been injured, the Wings have a much greater chance of beating Anaheim.

Carolina is a good example of this. The Canes added top-six forwards in Recchi and Weight at the deadline as rentals (both returned to their teams that offseason) and all key players stayed healthy in the playoffs.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Ummm - you forgot to add Ulf Sammuelsson, Wendel Clark, Todd Bertuzzi, Cory Cross, & Kyle Calder......Oh wait; you said elite players

Other then the last 2 , when we picked up Ulfie, Wendal and Chelios in 99 , I thought we were gonna win the cup. If we had had Konstatinov in 99 we definately wouldve won the cup.

Bertuzzi , I've always been a fan of and was happy to see we got him for such a small price. if only he'd be healthy and didnt want boatloads.

The deadlines are always so fun , Im definately staying home from school to watch the deadline this year!

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I haven't really heard Lou's full opinion on Burke, but it seems that he believes Burke is some how on another level in terms of being a better GM than Holland. In his sig he basically dashes all Holland's accomplishments since he became GM, so let's look at what Burke has done:

Burke inherited a team that already had his core of young players, he inherited a team with Rob Niedermayer who basically was a magnet for his brother Scott, so not really any effort there, no other teams really had a chance. Prior to that he traded Fedorov, well, not surprising since Burke really is almost a carbon copy of Don Cherry in that he hates Euros. So he gets praised for trading him to a team that desperately needed a player to try and validate their francise. Obviously it hasn't worked that well, but Fedorov wasn't going to propel either team to the next level at his age.

Then Burke got Pronger, decent trade, but not necessarily a hard one. Who else was seriously in discussion to get him other than the Ducks? Really easy to make the trade when your stable is stocked full and no one else could really compete with it. After that he lost one of his good young players because he decided to go "Ken Holland" and sign an older, familiar player to a large contract.

I understand people don't like Holland and I understand that people don't agree with the players that Holland has added or not added. But it's not just blind and ignorant people all around the NHL who actually believe that Holland is one of the best GM's in the league, because he is. I'm not going to go as far to say in Holland I trust, but there's few other GM's in the league who I'd want running this team. We have a team in Detroit not in cap hell, without players making more than they really should to the extent that they're hampering the team or not able to be traded. We're in great position in the future and have a vision that is working. We have a great coach who is getting this team to play a style that works in the playoffs.

Holland is not impervious to criticism but to discount everything he's doing just because we're not icing a team that is some people's ideal is for lack of a better word, lame and it's hard not to dismiss their arguments because of that fact. This organization has more than just one man running the show and because of that I find it very hard to believe that if people like Jimmy D, Jim Nill, Steve Yzerman, Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock truely thought that the makeup of the team was incapable of winning the cup it would be different, but at this point without sounding like I'm too blindly following them, I'll trust them. That doesn't mean I won't be critical if they do something I don't agree with, but it does mean that I'm not going to look down my nose at every move they make.

Ive actually made a post or two in the past talking about how the Burke/Holland scenarios are similar...and how people say Burke fell into a great situation but then wouldnt feel the same about Holland (eva for one). One difference I think though, is that Burke put more of a stamp on his team, making them the toughest team in the league and very physical. They werent like that prior to his arrival. Also he acquired key pieces via trades, as well as a head coach that fit his philosophies perfectly. So while the situations are quite alike, and i give Murray the vast majority of the credit definitely, I think Burke had a little more of an impact on his club. Holland's claim to fame is basically the Hasek trade, but im sorry, being in a non-cap era and a top spending team does diminish that.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ive actually made a post or two in the past talking about how the Burke/Holland scenarios are similar...and how people say Burke fell into a great situation but then wouldnt feel the same about Holland (eva for one).

From earlier in this thread, since you apparently failed the 'reading the entire thread before posting generalizations' seminar:

It's like how people get in arguments about Holland. Holland is a fine GM, and has done a wonderful job in keeping the team together and contending through the loss of quite a few star players, but he didn't really do much for his first Cup win. Those crediting Burke with such a good job should look to Holland for a comparable situation.[/font]

It's funny, because Vancouver fans say Keenan was horrible and Burke was great, when a majority of the quality players and thus the moderate success Burke enjoyed were the result of moves made in the Keenan era or before.

One difference I think though, is that Burke put more of a stamp on his team, making them the toughest team in the league and very physical. They werent like that prior to his arrival. Also he acquired key pieces via trades, as well as a head coach that fit his philosophies perfectly. So while the situations are quite alike, and i give Murray the vast majority of the credit definitely, I think Burke had a little more of an impact on his club. Holland's claim to fame is basically the Hasek trade, but im sorry, being in a non-cap era and a top spending team does diminish that.

Burke started with the core of a team that had just been to the Cup finals, and an AMAZING crop of talented youth. He wouldn't have been able to trade offensive cogs like Fedorov and Lupul if he didn't have guys like Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, and Penner coming up, and McDonald, Selanne, Kunitz already on the club. Burke had ten players on his Cup team who were in the organization when he got there, and two more who had decided they wanted to sign there before he was hired. Holland's 2002 team, OTOH, Holland's 2002 team had ten such players , six free agent signings and two players drafted by Holland. When you consider top six F, four D, and starting G...and discount players whose decisions were made before the GM was hired, Burke acquired Pronger and Beauchemin, while Holland acquired Hasek, Chelios, Duchesne, Fischer, Hull, Robitaille. Burke had about as much to do with the success of Anaheim in 2007 as Holland did for the Wings in 98, except for the fact that Holland had been the guy who scouted several key contributors to that team, while Burke had no prior influence.

Edited August 5, 2007 by eva unit zero

[Lou_Siffer 1]

From earlier in this thread, since you apparently failed the 'reading the entire thread before posting generalizations' seminar:

[/font]

Burke started with the core of a team that had just been to the Cup finals, and an AMAZING crop of talented youth. He wouldn't have been able to trade offensive cogs like Fedorov and Lupul if he didn't have guys like Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, and Penner coming up, and McDonald, Selanne, Kunitz already on the club. Burke had ten players on his Cup team who were in the organization when he got there, and two more who had decided they wanted to sign there before he was hired. Holland's 2002 team, OTOH, Holland's 2002 team had ten such players , six free agent signings and two players drafted by Holland. When you consider top six F, four D, and starting G...and discount players whose decisions were made before the GM was hired, Burke acquired Pronger and Beauchemin, while Holland acquired Hasek, Chelios, Duchesne, Fischer, Hull, Robitaille. Burke had about as much to do with the success of Anaheim in 2007 as Holland did for the Wings in 98, except for the fact that Holland had been the guy who scouted several key contributors to that team, while Burke had no prior influence.

I guess maybe it was just the 2002 Cup that me and you disagreed with before in a different thread. Theres no difference between Neidermayer and Selanne wanting to sign with Anaheim and Robitaille and Hull with Detroit. You cant just credit one GM and not the other...thats why I dont give Holland or Burke kudos for those signings. Burke did have a little more influence on his team than Holland in 98, I dont think that can be argued. Even if the team had just been to the Finals in '03, he still was the guy that got them over the hump...whereas Holland's team was already a proven Cup winner.

[eva unit zero 271]

I guess maybe it was just the 2002 Cup that me and you disagreed with before in a different thread. Theres no difference between Neidermayer and Selanne wanting to sign with Anaheim and Robitaille and Hull with Detroit. You cant just credit one GM and not the other...thats why I dont give Holland or Burke kudos for those signings. Burke did have a little more influence on his team than Holland in 98, I dont think that can be argued. Even if the team had just been to the Finals in '03, he still was the guy that got them over the hump...whereas Holland's team was already a proven Cup winner.

Holland's team was a proven Cup winner that had just lost its best defenseman. Don't forget that.

[Manoir 70]

Hmm...Let's look at something. Elite players acquired by Burke via trade in Van/Ana....Chris Pronger. Elite players acquired by Holland via trade..Chris Chelios, Dominik Hasek, Robert Lang....where again is Burke picking up more elite players?

Burke did get Jovonovski in the Bure trade and I wouldn't consider Lang an elite player. In any case, the difference is Hollands' strategy is either sign UFA's or wait until the trade deadline and seek out desperate teams who either want to rebuild or shed salary. The last real gutsy trade the Wings made was the Shanahan trade. Holland seems like he is too afraid to make a mistake and so just makes moves when the risk factor is low.

[eva unit zero 271]

Burke did get Jovonovski in the Bure trade and I wouldn't consider Lang an elite player. In any case, the difference is Hollands' strategy is either sign UFA's or wait until the trade deadline and seek out desperate teams who either want to rebuild or shed salary. The last real gutsy trade the Wings made was the Shanahan trade. Holland seems like he is too afraid to make a mistake and so just makes moves when the risk factor is low.

Jovanovski is NOT an elite player. If you include Jovo, I get to include Schneider, who is better than Jovo now and has been better than Jovo for most of the years of Jovo's career. As for Lang, he was the scoring leader when Holland picked him up. That qualifies him as elite, if only for that season.

The Shanahan trade, the Wings gave up an aging and unneccessary Paul Coffey, and an underachieving Keith Primeau to get the league's premier power forward. What Shanahan was when he was acquired also was basically the uppermost peak of Keith Primeau's believed potential...a mark he never reached. Trading someone who has a small chance at being the league's top power forward for someone only two years older who has held that spot for three years? That's not gutsy, that's a no-brainer.

Gutsy is trading a 24-year old who was a top-four defenseman on a Cup-winner AS A ROOKIE, and is projected to be a top-pairing, franchise-type guy AND two first round draft picks for a 37-year old former Norris winner who is believed to be in his last couple seasons before retirement. Oh, wait, Holland made that trade, so it CAN'T have been gutsy.

[Manoir 70]

The Shanahan trade was very bold. Primeau was what, 25-26 at the time? There was still the distinct possibility of him becoming an extremely dominant centre. Moreover, it was huge in that the Wings saw a need for a power forward and went after it. No waiting to the deadline or only willing to give up picks. Contrast that to the present. Again the Wings see a need for a top6 fwd, and Holland's approach is to wait till the deadline where again he will be unwilling to give up any roster players. I doubt he would have even made the Shanahan trade.

Even the Chelios trade you mentioned, another deadline move where a team was looking to rebuild. Not much creativity. Take Lamoriello for example. He has no qualms about giving up roster players to improve his team and then compliments that with extreme shrewdness. Moving up in the draft to nab Parise, brilliant. That's a great GM, not someone who had money at his disposal and so made some moves at the deadline with desperate teams.

[eva unit zero 271]

The Shanahan trade was very bold. Primeau was what, 25-26 at the time? There was still the distinct possibility of him becoming an extremely dominant centre. Moreover, it was huge in that the Wings saw a need for a power forward and went after it. No waiting to the deadline or only willing to give up picks. Contrast that to the present. Again the Wings see a need for a top6 fwd, and Holland's approach is to wait till the deadline where again he will be unwilling to give up any roster players. I doubt he would have even made the Shanahan trade.

Even the Chelios trade you mentioned, another deadline move where a team was looking to rebuild. Not much creativity. Take Lamoriello for example. He has no qualms about giving up roster players to improve his team and then compliments that with extreme shrewdness. Moving up in the draft to nab Parise, brilliant. That's a great GM, not someone who had money at his disposal and so made some moves at the deadline with desperate teams.

And yet, Lamoirello has failed miserably in the cap situation while Holland has excelled. If moving up to grab Parise was so brilliant, what about Holland swapping a first for two seconds, and then drafting first-round rated Cory Emmerton as well as big center Shawn Matthias with the picks acquired? Brilliant at the draft is more like being Don Waddell at the 2002 draft. Florida moved from 1st to 3rd, with Columbus wanting to secure Rick Nash. Atlanta received picks from both Columbus and Florida guaranteeing that they would not draft Bouwmeester, whom they never planned to draft in the first place. Columbus and Florida both gave up picks to Atlanta and received the same player they would have had no trade taken place (Florida intended to take Bouwmeester first overall, and Atlanta already had Kovalchuk and Heatley, but had no franchise-type goalie like Lehtonen)

[eva unit zero 271]

The Shanahan trade was very bold. Primeau was what, 25-26 at the time? There was still the distinct possibility of him becoming an extremely dominant centre.

Primeau was 26, and still a 'could become dominant' type of player. Shanahan was 28, and had been the best power forward in the world since the age of 25. Give up a guy who one day could be dominant, to get a guy of similar age who has BEEN dominant and IS CURRENTLY dominant? That's not bold. That's fish in a barrel.

[/font]

Also, just an interesting side note...but if Rod Brind'Amour ever gets traded, watch for the player going to Carolina to be named captain. Shanahan (captain) was traded for Primeau, who later became captain (Kevin Dineen between them), and was then traded for Brind'Amour, who is now captain (Ron Francis between them).

[Manoir 70]

The other great thing about the Shanahan trade was getting rid of Coffey, a player clearly on the decline but still considered somewhat valuable, and getting something for him. Holland's approach to similar players is to let their contracts run out, whether it be Lang, Hull etc. Again, unwilling or unable to make a move that requires some skill and not just giving picks or throwing money. Then there are the really good GM's like Lamoriello, sees Arnott going down, trades him for Langenbrunner and Nieuwendyk. Burke sees Federov is declining, he's gone.

Bold moves turned the Wings around in the 90's. Bowman sees a need for a goalie, so he goes out and trades Chiasson (even though the D was pretty depleted) and gets Vernon. Bryan Murray was unwilling to make that trade and got Essesna instead. That's what seperates the average GM's from the great ones.