Devils sign Arron Asham

[eva unit zero 271]

I agree 100%. I mean, look at the complete flip flop towards Lilja after he fought Moen and then Sharp. Everyone hates him, he fights, then suddenly he has fans. People act like fighting doesnt matter, yet when one of the Wings does it, they love it.

You are forgetting that a major reason Lilja was disliked is because he was SUPPOSED to be tough and wasn't. Scrapping was a prime indicator of that changing.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

You are forgetting that a major reason Lilja was disliked is because he was SUPPOSED to be tough and wasn't. Scrapping was a prime indicator of that changing.

Fair enough. But the fact remains if fighting doesnt matter, according to many, the fact that he suddenly becomes liked because of it is a little odd.

[eva unit zero 271]

Fair enough. But the fact remains if fighting doesnt matter, according to many, the fact that he suddenly becomes liked because of it is a little odd.

Only if his fighting were the only difference in his play, which is not the case. Lilja played solid defensive hockey for the last month and a half of the regular season and most of the playoffs, independent of whether or not he fought. It's one of the reasons his giveaway in OT to Selanne was so depressing--he had been playing so well and then made the type of obvious mistake he had been previously hated for, but was managing to avoid making.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Only if his fighting were the only difference in his play, which is not the case. Lilja played solid defensive hockey for the last month and a half of the regular season and most of the playoffs, independent of whether or not he fought. It's one of the reasons his giveaway in OT to Selanne was so depressing--he had been playing so well and then made the type of obvious mistake he had been previously hated for, but was managing to avoid making.

I still think the fighting had a little something to do with it, but i agree he did play overall better...you have a point there. People were jumping aboard the "train" right when he fought Moen though, its what jump started everything. Howdo you think people would react though, if we say actually had Cam Janssen, and he fought Parros in a good tussle opening night? Do you think people would continue to say having a fighter is useless, or would you expect to see a big shift in that debate? (please no Norton comparison though, it wouldnt be anything like having someone like Cam..)

As others have said, i just think most of the people who portray themselves as being against fighting are only like that because the Wings dont do it..

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I'm making a bold prediction right now. The first time we play the Wild this season, Lilja KO's Boogaard with a left hand from hell.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I'm making a bold prediction right now. The first time we play the Wild this season, Lilja KO's Boogaard with a left hand from hell.

Only way that happens if theyre playing on Halloween night and Boo-gaard is going as Fedoruk.

(haha Todd's my boy, but he was the obvious choice)

Edited August 12, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[eva unit zero 271]

I still think the fighting had a little something to do with it, but i agree he did play overall better...you have a point there. People were jumping aboard the "train" right when he fought Moen though, its what jump started everything. Howdo you think people would react though, if we say actually had Cam Janssen, and he fought Parros in a good tussle opening night? Do you think people would continue to say having a fighter is useless, or would you expect to see a big shift in that debate? (please no Norton comparison though, it wouldnt be anything like having someone like Cam..)

As others have said, i just think most of the people who portray themselves as being against fighting are only like that because the Wings dont do it..

I don't want a Janssen type player who is going to be on the roster for his fists only, who won't contribute in other ways, and who will only play 4 minutes a night. For one, I think it's a waste of money, for another, I don't think it serves as an effective deterrent, especially when compared to a guy who can put up a few points, play a grinding physical style, and contribute with a good 10-12 minutes. I am skeptical of how much of a deterrent fighting is at all, but I do know that players aren't deterred by a guy who won't be on the ice. Guys like Probert and Semenko served as deterrents because they were on the ice A LOT and at the SAME TIME as the guys they were protecting.

I would have rather picked up Asham, who beat Janssen twice last year, but as I stated in the Asham thread, the fact that he played well yet had to take a pay cut left me wondering whether he had locker room issues, meaning Detroit wouldn't have been interested, and if not, whether he took a pay cut to stay in the New York area, thus meaning Detroit had no shot.

Think back for a few years though. There was a time when the Wings had Basil McRae, who was of the same ilk as Janssen--fighter with no skills. McRae was, at least as far as I recall, far less popular in Detroit than Probert and Kocur. Stu Grimson suffered the same fate ten years later. Janssen likely would fall into that category--he'd be liked because he fought, but he wouldn't be the next McCarty.

EDIT; As far as Lilja, the Moen thing resulted in the nickname 'Pain Train.' But the bashing for his play had already slowed almost to a halt by then.

Edited August 12, 2007 by eva unit zero

[Heaton 1]

As for Lilja - well he was everyones whipping boy (for 1 reason or another) so he had nowhere to go but up...Finally having some testicles he dropped the mitts a few times, & VOILA everyone likes him...Most folks in the blue collar city of Detroit love their tuff guys just as much (maybe even more) as they love the skill guys.

Fairly sure Lilja's re-emergence came because of his stellar defensive and physical play throughout the post season and less because he fought Travis Moen.

Edited August 12, 2007 by Heaton

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Fairly sure Lilja's re-emergence came because of his stellar defensive and physical play throughout the post season and less because he fought Travis Moen.

Aye. The fight was exciting to see and a breath of fresh air, but that's not the sole reason (or main reason) people jumped on Lilja's bandwagon. Even when Shanny had the occasional scrap in his last few years it didn't blind people from the fact that he'd become a floater and a hack, and there's certainly no love lost for Darryl Bootland even though he'd drop the gloves any time.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Fairly sure Lilja's re-emergence came because of his stellar defensive and physical play throughout the post season and less because he fought Travis Moen.

Cant say Im one of them! The only reason I liked Lilja for the tail end of the season was because he fought Moen and Sharp. And in the Calgary series when he and Markov started scrappin with the Flames behind the net after Cleary fell into Kipprusoff.

[eva unit zero 271]

McRae went on to become the North Stars tuff guy, & had some memorable battles with Probert, & Kocur...Stu Grimson was fairly popular in Detroit; I remember many would yell out "STUUUU" whenever he stepped onto the ice, but no he was never quite as popular as Probie...A few other guys the Red Wings drafted, but were traded, & uber tuff, & had some skills were both Randy McKay (went on to have a very good career in NJ), & Adam Graves (played great with the Oilers, & Rangers). These 2 guys are what we could use today!

As for Lilja - well he was everyones whipping boy (for 1 reason or another) so he had nowhere to go but up...Finally having some testicles he dropped the mitts a few times, & VOILA everyone likes him...Most folks in the blue collar city of Detroit love their tuff guys just as much (maybe even more) as they love the skill guys.

Tough guys in Detroit get marginal love if they can't play. Graves and McKay never really got a shot in a Wings uniform, but they are exactly the kind of guy who IS popular in Detroit--a tough player who has skills.