When will the Wings fall?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

It's a tough question to answer. I don't think we will ever see the Wings be as horrid as they were during the 80's. I just don't see Mr. I letting that happen.

That being said, I think the Wings started a decline after the '02 season. The most glaring whole that was never filled was Sergei, and things kept dropping off from there. The current team is a shell of what the Wings once were. Now that's not all bad, they are still a good team.

I think the Wings, moreso than any other team in the NHL, were hit hard by the cap.

[OsGOD 3]

If something ever happens to zeta.... *knock on wood*

[CdnWingsFanEh 2]

I really don't think we'll see those days again, unless Illitch sells the wings, AND the new owner doesn't give a crap.

[PenaltyShot 96 521]

I think the loss of our core players Lidstrom, Draper, Maltby, etc will definitely effect the team's stability, but it looks like Holland is trying to build a replacement core around Hank and Dats so we shouldn't fall too far, especially if Kenny gets a few good trade/free agent deals. I agree that losing Kenny would be a blow. Hopefully he is grooming a replacement.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Losing Kenny or Illitch selling the team will be its downfall. Other than that, we wont ever see another Dead Wings era. The ownership/management of this team is too dedicated to winning to let us slide that far. A bad season here or there might be an issue, but issues will continued to be addressed year after year. IMO, when Lidstrom retires, if Howard isnt ready, the Wings will either add a high-profile tender or a high-profile forward. If we dont have a studded D, then well have a studded forward cast. Thats just how management will work it. If we cant stay competitive one way, well figure out another way to do it.

[CdnWingsFanEh 2]

Losing Kenny or Illitch selling the team will be its downfall. Other than that, we wont ever see another Dead Wings era. The ownership/management of this team is too dedicated to winning to let us slide that far. A bad season here or there might be an issue, but issues will continued to be addressed year after year. IMO, when Lidstrom retires, if Howard isnt ready, the Wings will either add a high-profile tender or a high-profile forward. If we dont have a studded D, then well have a studded forward cast. Thats just how management will work it. If we cant stay competitive one way, well figure out another way to do it.

This is pretty much what I was too lazy to bother saying....

[auxlepli 17]

Thoughts?

I don't even want to think about it. Damn what a depressing thought - the Wings being non-contenders.

[interminded 1]

I really don't think we'll see those days again, unless Illitch sells the wings, AND the new owner doesn't give a crap.

I think (& hope) the Red Wings will remain within the Illitch family.

If by circumstances the Illitches would sell the Red Wings, they would make sure it would be to Red Wings-worthy owner.

But that won't happen.

As aforementioned, we have GM's as grounded as Ken Holland and a proud owners like the Illitch Family, we will be fine.

[BlueMonk 102]

As long as Mike Ilitch can throw enough money at Jim Nill to keep him from taking some other team's GM position, the Wings should remain a good team.

[toby91_ca 620]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think the Wings have a great system. They don't tend to hold on to older guys to play in key roles, so as the older guys retire, they won't be left with nothing.

Take Chelios for example, yes he is aging and will retire soon, but his retirement won't significantly hurt the team as he has already begun taking less responsibility. We'll see what happens with Lidstrom, he still is capable of logging all those minutes and all that responsibility, but if he goes from that to retired....it will hurt the Wings.

As long as they keep up that type of system, they should be okay for awhile. HOWEVER....they will not contend every year, it simply won't happen. I shouldn't be so absolute, but if they were able to contend from now until the end of time, it will be the first sports franchise in history to do so. The Yankees have gone through tough years, The Canadiens have gone through tough years, etc. Especially in a cap world, it may be more difficult....or easier, depending on how you look at it.

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

Well here it is when the Illitches decide to sell the Wings and lets hope that it does not happen for many years to come.

1. they hired Nill

2. they hired Holland

3. they hired Bowman

4. they hired Babcock

The Illitches have the Midas touch anything they touch will turn to gold

[Kutcher 0]

When drapes and malts decide to retire, that will be our downfall believe it or not. if lids retires we got deep offensive talent thats currently being groomed to take his spot when he decides to retire.

Draper and Maltby? there is noone other then Abeldekader and Kopecky who can fill there void. and does that sound promising? i think not.

Darren Helm will replace Draper very nicely.

[Viperar 16]

Well here it is when the Illitches decide to sell the Wings and lets hope that it does not happen for many years to come.

1. they hired Nill

2. they hired Holland

3. they hired Bowman

4. they hired Babcock

The Illitches have the Midas touch anything they touch will turn to gold

hopefully they can turn our attendance back into golden numbers

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

hopefully they can turn our attendance back into golden numbers

This is a sore subject for me. Something I don't understand is how the Wings ticket prices remain the same, and in some cases have increased since the new CBA was put into play. The payroll was cut in half, yet ticket prices saw no change. That really bothers me. I don't see why ticket prices couldn't have dropped a bit. I'm not saying drop the prices in an equal percentage to the payroll cut, but serisouly, Mr. I throw us a frikin' bone here.....

[OsGOD 3]

BRING BACK THE BOGO's in the the entertainment book Mr. Moneybags.... Call 1-800-hansons to Git er dun!

Edited November 20, 2007 by OsGOD

[stlwing14 0]

A bad season for us is...well...not winning the Cup. But a really bad season is getting tossed in the first/second round of the playoffs. A disaster is not making the playoffs or worse.

We've been spoiled for some time but as evident with how the Wings played in the last year's playoffs and for most of the early goings this year, the hunger is still there. We've got guys that still haven't tasted the Cup and guys who obviously want more. Who doesn't?

Our strengths have been finding guys like Dats in areas of the draft other teams really don't care about. If it's not in the first round too many people just toss the rest as being minor leaguers or third-fourth round fillers. Tell that to Hank and Dats. Also, we have a pull in trading in being THE Detroit Red Wings. Star players still want to come here because we have the reputation of always being in it. We can pull star trades but we are also sober enough not to over pay (avoiding re-signing Bert, not unloading the bank on guys like Drury ala NYR, etc). We can get stars who want to win more than get paid (Brian R this year is example) as well as retain stars of the same attitude.

Coaching is a huge plus. Babcock is gold. His style of team is forming rather well. The sky isn't falling with a few games dropped, a Hasek slump ,and aging core players. Also the improvment of the Blues, Hawks, and Jackets could in fact just drive Wings management and players to play even harder. Competition isn't always a bad thing. Besides, we've won Cups without winning the Division.

I think we have a bright future with what we have right now and what we are capable of via trades, drafting, coaching, etc. The Babcock team will look a lot different from the Bowman era of the Russian Five, Y, and Shanny but I think the results will be just as good.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I was thinking about this the other day... When do you guys think the Wings may go through another playoff slump, like the 70's and 80's? We have two aging goaltenders, a captain that will be retired in 2-3 years, Chris Chelios, and Draper and Maltby - who are not getting any younger. Sure we have a decent core of younger players outside of Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but do you think Hulder, Kopecky, Meech and Kindl have the ability to keep the team in the playoffs and keep them competitive?

I think this year, maybe just because of the Wings recent struggles, it looks like teams are starting to really even out. Look at Chicago, and Columbus gave them a hell of a time last night. Both of those teams are just going to get better, seeing as they are both very young teams. St. Louis is much better this year then last, and while Nashville is a shadow of last year's team, they still have a decent squad. It just looks like the Wings and the Jackets/'hawks are going in different directions. Even outside the division with Edmonton, who suck this year, but have a really bright future. Can they compete with Pittsburgh and Ottawa in the East?

What can Holland do to keep up? Should the Wings be concerned about matching the youth some of these other teams have? What about goaltending? Is it a now or never kind of feeling in Detroit this year?

Thoughts?

I don't think we're going to fall anytime soon. However, I fully anticipate the same problems again this year in the playoffs. I don't see us beating a team like Anaheim for the same reasons why we always lose to a team like Anaheim. That being, when skill evens out for the most part (and face it, they have some skilled players over there) the other stuff comes into play. Some of those things include, size and toughness, the ability to absorb damage and dole out more than you take. Goaltending, Giguere has had the better of us twice now. And lastly, secondary scoring in the playoffs is what makes or breaks you. You look at a team like Anaheim that got goals from the Moen's and May's and other pluggers who played tough, drove hard to the net and banged the hell out of everything. That's how you get your playoff goals that make the difference at even strength. You look at our secondary scoring of Flip, Sammy, Hudler. Those guys aren't going to cut it playoff style. They're not going to score goals as perimeter players trying to set up fancy plays and shoot from the outside. That's been proven time and time again as the wings unload 40-50-60 shots a game only to lose 3-2 or 2-1.

Don't be shocked if we face Anaheim again at some point in the playoffs and we see more of the same. Our guys bouncing off of bigger, stronger Anaheim players and getting knocked on their cans by bigger, stronger Anaheim players and basically getting shoved around the ice in key areas where the junk goals and the rebound goals get tapped in by guys like Moen or Kunitz or Pahlsson or Niedermayer.

IMO, they have the edge in speed, size and toughness. The goaltending is a wash. I think the skill level is pretty even at the top of the rosters. We have the edge skill wise further down the rosters but as I mentioned, I don't think that's what wins you games anymore.

PS: Stats from last year's playoffs. (Wings played 18 games, Ducks 21 games)

Goals by Wings forwards

40 (19 by Dats/Z/Homer)

14 goals on the PP by forwards

Goals by Ducks forwards

47

9 goals on the PP by forwards

Clearly, the Ducks did a boatload of damage at even strength, where size and strength come into play more IMO. If you are on your ass or getting knocked around, it doesn't matter how much skill you have. It's already obvious how we cannot clear the crease or areas around the net. Anybody notice in the last Hawks game how Lapointe just railroaded Kopa at the side of the net and broke up that play? Then what do we do? Let 2-3 Hawks cram our crease and Sharp just pops one in on the doorstep. That's the kinda s*** that's going to cost us another Cup.

Edited November 20, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[Elshupacabra 0]

It will be very strange and sad when it does happen, I hope it won't be for MANY years to come.

[toby91_ca 620]

Also, we have a pull in trading in being THE Detroit Red Wings. Star players still want to come here because we have the reputation of always being in it. We can pull star trades but we are also sober enough not to over pay (avoiding re-signing Bert, not unloading the bank on guys like Drury ala NYR, etc). We can get stars who want to win more than get paid (Brian R this year is example) as well as retain stars of the same attitude.

I'm not sure how true that is. In terms of trades, the only way it would help is if you are trying to trade for someone that has a NTC. May help a little in drawing UFA's though. But with respect to Rafalski, I wouldn't say he took a discount to come here.

Rafaslki is making $6 million, the list of defensemen making more than that is not a very long one:

Pronger - $6.25 million

Timonen - $6.3 million (comparable stats with Rafalski and I suspect Philly was a little desperate on D when they signed him)

Redden - $6.5 million (a great defenseman who will likely sign for less this year to stay in Ottawa)

Jovo - $6.5 million (this guy is obviously overpaid)

Chara - $7.5 million (probably overpaid, but he was coveted when he signed)

Lidstrom - $7.6 million

[Guest jaytan]

I think we'll miss the playoffs either next season or the year after that, but I don't expect a long drought. The way the league is structured now and the way this organization is run, the Wings shouldn't be terrible any time soon, and only terrible teams consistently miss the NHL playoffs.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Think a little bit here please - the Wings were so bad in the old days due to awful management and ownership. These guys know how to win and how to build a team. It isn't just going to fade away.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Honestly, with a pretty low salary cap the only reason a team should miss the playoffs for a number of years in a row (like the dead wings era) is if nobody wants to play for you. I could see the Wings being a team that dips in performance for a while, and maybe missing the playoffs a few times, but I doubt you'll see any long tenures without a playoff berth. Origional six teams are desirable places to play, and in an era where everyone can essentially affort to pay to the cap level, there is no reason for continually poor performances (unless the team is being completely missmanaged). We haven't had this cap for very long, but teams like Buffalo, Carolina, Tampa bay illustrate my point. Their fluctuation in performance is something I anticipate as being more common than it was in the previous decades. Buffalo was a cup contender and presidents trophy winner in 2006-07, this year they'll be lucky to make the playoffs.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Our strengths have been finding guys like Dats in areas of the draft other teams really don't care about. If it's not in the first round too many people just toss the rest as being minor leaguers or third-fourth round fillers. Tell that to Hank and Dats. Also, we have a pull in trading in being THE Detroit Red Wings. Star players still want to come here because we have the reputation of always being in it. We can pull star trades but we are also sober enough not to over pay (avoiding re-signing Bert, not unloading the bank on guys like Drury ala NYR, etc). We can get stars who want to win more than get paid (Brian R this year is example) as well as retain stars of the same attitude.

I think we have a bright future with what we have right now and what we are capable of via trades, drafting, coaching, etc. The Babcock team will look a lot different from the Bowman era of the Russian Five, Y, and Shanny but I think the results will be just as good.

The fact that the Wings have plucked guys like Hank and Pav from later rounds doesn't translate into other teams not caring about those rounds. It's attributed to a few things, mainly scouting, but also the Wings willingness to take a chance on a guy who isn't a stud. Yes, Hank and Pav were not studs when the were drafted. If they were, they would have went much sooner.

So because Drury took the big money from the NYR, he doesn't want to win? That doesn't make sense. The Wings have never really been a team to go out and get the big name UFA's. No, Hull doesn't count. When the Wings signed him, he wasn't the guy everyone wanted like Drury and Danny B were. Remember that UFA class had Blake, Sakic, Roy, J.R., and Mogilny. Even so, the Wings tend to pick up guys via trade. In the past, they were able to trade away high picks, things have changed with the salary cap. The Wings can are no longer allowed to have a payroll as high as they wish. Make no mistake about it, the Wings paid the for the stars they had, and still do. Remember Lidstrom got league max when the cap went into effect. Even if he takes his 'hometown discount' again, he will still take up an extremely large chunk of change, and the discount won't be too much.

Honestly, with a pretty low salary cap the only reason a team should miss the playoffs for a number of years in a row (like the dead wings era) is if nobody wants to play for you. I could see the Wings being a team that dips in performance for a while, and maybe missing the playoffs a few times, but I doubt you'll see any long tenures without a playoff berth. Origional six teams are desirable places to play, and in an era where everyone can essentially affort to pay to the cap level, there is no reason for continually poor performances (unless the team is being completely missmanaged). We haven't had this cap for very long, but teams like Buffalo, Carolina, Tampa bay illustrate my point. Their fluctuation in performance is something I anticipate as being more common than it was in the previous decades. Buffalo was a cup contender and presidents trophy winner in 2006-07, this year they'll be lucky to make the playoffs.

Those three teams were all legitimate contenders before the cap era. In fact, Tampa won the Cup before the new CBA.

[chelios4eva 0]

Wern't we supposed to "fall" after 02 when Scotty left?

Wern't we supposed to "fall" when after us getting swept by the ducks, because it lost out confidence?

Wern't we supposed to "fall" after the lock out, because we were to "old" in the new NHL

Wern't we supposed to "fall" after Steve left, because there can never be a captain like him, thus no heart in the team.

How did that work out?

*By "fall" I mean miss or barely clinch the playoffs the next season.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Wern't we supposed to "fall" after 02 when Scotty left?

Wern't we supposed to "fall" when after us getting swept by the ducks, because it lost out confidence?

Wern't we supposed to "fall" after the lock out, because we were to "old" in the new NHL

Wern't we supposed to "fall" after Steve left, because there can never be a captain like him, thus no heart in the team.

How did that work out?

*By "fall" I mean miss or barely clinch the playoffs the next season.

Inspirational, but how many of those do we get before it actually becomes reality.