Babcock seeks scoring balance

[Dabura 12,232]

My only point thus far has been we need more offense from these guys

And my point is these aren't the guys you should be pointing your finger at -- especially in light of your implication that a forward needs to score or fight or else he's useless. Which is just wack. Knocking guys in the bottom six for not contributing enough offensively is like knocking guys in the top six for not grinding and fighting enough; yeah, you can make that argument, but it would make a whole lot more sense to get down on the people who are supposed to be serving those roles in the first place.

For example, Hudler is on this team to score goals. His output thus far is inadequate. Do you ***** out Maltby for this? No, you ride Hudler. Conversely, let's say Maltby's not meeting expectations as an energy line anchor. Do you then ***** out Hudler for not grinding and agitating enough? No, you ride Maltby. As a coach, you want to avoid cutting players slack and swapping responsibilities (and, by extension, accountability), as all that will ultimately give you is half-assed performance. The rules change when your roster is injury-riddled, but that's not the case with this team right now. But getting back to Draper and Maltby....

Could they stand to contribute more offensively? Sure, but so could everyone else -- especially the guys on the secondary scoring line, who aren't exactly living up to their line's title. If you're going to point your finger, aim it at those guys. And while you're at it, get off this silly point about Draper and Maltby being on the team for phantom reasons and worthless intangibles. I played hockey most of my life and enjoyed a high level of success, so believe me when I say what a guy like Draper brings to the table is extremely valuable and entails more than "giving rah rah speeches" and "showing you how to work out." I'm not exactly the classiest guy in the world, but pissing on a player like Draper like you're doing is not cool.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but who is "rex"? By process of elimination I'm guessing Kopecky and if so, how/why was he tagged "rex"? Some "t-rex" thing..?

[Echolalia 2,961]

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but who is "rex"? By process of elimination I'm guessing Kopecky and if so, how/why was he tagged "rex"? Some "t-rex" thing..?

Hudler

[Grittzkey 1]

Dabura, instead of quoting your post.. just know this is in responce to your post..

Why does Rex get put into the inadequate scoring convo.. when Flipper is the only one who has been in the top 2 lines the whole year.. Sammy has missed a game, and plays defence on the PP.. and Hudler has been on the 4th line for a good chunk of the season.. Even though you did say "for example" i kinda think that Hudler gets the brunt of the abuse instead of Filpulla just because people like Flipper more for 1 reason or another..

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[Dabura 12,232]

I'm a bit easier on Flip because he's clearly a playmaker first and a goal-scorer second, very much like Datsyuk (who, by no coincidence, isn't exactly blowing away goalies left and right this season).

Hudler, on the other hand, is on the team because of his goal-scoring touch. If he's not lighting the lamp, he's essentially useless, whereas Flip has some value even if he isn't scoring. Additionally, he made a big statement last season by showing he's capable of being a top-6 guy when the going gets rough and everything is on the line. And not just capable years from now -- capable now.

So he has a few things going for him. The same really can't be said of Hudler because, again, he's a pretty one-dimensional package. Certainly he's far from reaching his full potential, but even at his zenith, I don't see him being terribly special. A big part of that obviously has to do with his size. If you're smallish and you want to be a scoring line staple in today's NHL, you need to have a really special quality or two, be it ridiculous wheels or even just consistent goal-scoring. From what I've seen of Hudler, he doesn't show signs of having something like that.

I could be wrong, and believe me, that would be a welcome surprise. But I don't think I am.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Dabura

[ProfessorLidstrom5 0]

The idea of splitting up the ZDH line is ridiculous. That line is our top scoring line and breaking them up will just decrease our goal output and put more pressure on our defense and goaltenders to win games.

These are the lines I would roll:

Dats - Z - Homer

Huds - Flip - Cleary

Malts - Drapes - Sammy

Downey - Franz - Kopy

The top line goes untouched. The second line loses Sammy and gains a potential sniper as well as a leader in Cleary to play with the kids. Flip can set up Cleary and Huds which will produce good scoring chances. The third line gains more scoring chances through Sammy, who is known to shoot the puck a lot more than Malts and Drapes. The fourth line is pretty similar and has a lot of size and grit.

[Grittzkey 1]

i was thinking about swapping Cleary and Sammy. Because the sucess of the 2nd line the consistant pressure they get with Cleary in, instead of Sammy in on the RW. But, that ruins the nucleous of the 3rd line *ie, Defence First*.

Franz on the 4th line? sounds good.. but why Kopy over Drake?

Edited November 27, 2007 by Grittzkey

[OsGOD 3]

If babs want to see the scoring balance than really he needs to take "z" out of the equation for a few games... maybe sit him out, dress him and sit him on the bench or give him 4th line mins....

Just like last year the wings are relying on him to provide all the scoring. When he was absent the team gelled (sp?) togethered and showed they are more than a one player scoring machine. others picked up the slack and we were better off.

but that is just extreme case... we need to get our team to not rely on the ZDH line every night.

[ProfessorLidstrom5 0]

i was thinking about swapping Cleary and Sammy. Because the sucess of the 2nd line the consistant pressure they get with Cleary in, instead of Sammy in on the RW. But, that ruins the nucleous of the 3rd line *ie, Defence First*.

Franz on the 4th line? sounds good.. but why Kopy over Drake?

Well I believe Drake would split time with Kopy during the season with Downey impressing Babs more and more. Drake needs to be saved for the playoffs and needs to be healthy when that time comes.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Filpula and Franzen are to blame really. ZDH, Sammy, Cleary and Hudler have all given us good scoring. Filpula has looked out of place in alot of games this year, and Franzens been injured.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Personally, I like Franzen and Filppula better, but I cant stand it when people let their biases get in the way of the facts. Especially with Filppula. I feel like everyone on this board is still operating under the idea that hes the next Zetterberg. Filppula is the next Zetterberg just like Kronner was the next Lidstrom. We have enough defensive forwards - Cleary, Franzen, Draper, Maltby, Drake, and Filppula. The only guy thats providing us with steady offense there is Cleary...and mostly because of his insane work ethic + being in the prime years of his career.

Franzen and Filppula will not be 25 goal scorers any time soon. Sammy and Hudler - as much as dont particularly like either - are much more likely to be putting up 20/20+ than the Franzen and Flip are. Neither of those two seem to be able to put it together.

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but who is "rex"? By process of elimination I'm guessing Kopecky and if so, how/why was he tagged "rex"? Some "t-rex" thing..?

In some ESPN article, they said "Rex Hudler" instead of Jiri. Its become a joke/nickname since then.

I'm a bit easier on Flip because he's clearly a playmaker first and a goal-scorer second, very much like Datsyuk (who, by no coincidence, isn't exactly blowing away goalies left and right this season).

Hudler, on the other hand, is on the team because of his goal-scoring touch. If he's not lighting the lamp, he's essentially useless, whereas Flip has some value even if he isn't scoring. Additionally, he made a big statement last season by showing he's capable of being a top-6 guy when the going gets rough and everything is on the line. And not just capable years from now -- capable now.

So he has a few things going for him. The same really can't be said of Hudler because, again, he's a pretty one-dimensional package. Certainly he's far from reaching his full potential, but even at his zenith, I don't see him being terribly special. A big part of that obviously has to do with his size. If you're smallish and you want to be a scoring line staple in today's NHL, you need to have a really special quality or two, be it ridiculous wheels or even just consistent goal-scoring. From what I've seen of Hudler, he doesn't show signs of having something like that.

I could be wrong, and believe me, that would be a welcome surprise. But I don't think I am.

But Datsyuk is still putting up points. Correct me if Im wrong, but Hudler doesnt exactly play with an all-star center. But hes still on pace for a 45 point season. Thats not bad considering he was demoted to the 4th line and nearly scratched at one point.

The more the season goes along, Im starting to get sick of this bias against Hudler and praise for Filppula. In most cases, Flip cant finish even though he gets great chances nearly every game. On the other hand, Hudler creates a ton of chances for himself and others, while utilizing a great shot. Not to mention his speed and work ethic has skyrocketed since last since.

[Superman54 91]

I think Flippula has been a huge letdown so far. But I do like the way Hudler is playin, I didn't expect too too much from him anyway. Franzen needs to start playin better for sure and I think Sammy should defaintly not play on the 2nd line if he doesnt provide. Babcock should play around with the 2nd line and not have Sammy and Flip always up there together. Of course this is just if Zetter stays on the first line.

My own choice for line 2 would be Cleary - Hudler - Sammy

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Valtteri's a good talent,he will bounce back and he'll get a multi-year extension.

I wonder, does Aussie Wing love Filppula more than you hate him?

Stats don't reflect the whole story. Flip might not have a lot of points but he's playing solid hockey and every night he’s out there creating chances but not much has gone his way. I agree that it’s probably time for change and I’d like to see a Hudler-Filppula-Franzen line which worked so well during the pre-season.

It seems I say this in every post, but Babcock is an idiot. I understand that he wants scoring balance, but he's tried splitting up Datsyuk and Zetterberg a million times and it NEVER works. They always end up back together because there's no scoring with them on separate lines. Those two players are just too good together to split up. I'll take the best line in hockey over 2 average lines.

If Babcock wants secondary scoring, maybe he should try keeping the lines together for once and let them develop some chemistry. It seems like he switches up the lines practically every shift. And for god's sake, keep Samuelsson out of the top 6. Filppula works his butt off with the puck and Sammy just throws a weak shot right into the goalie's chest from 50 feet away. I wouldn't mind him if he was a depth forward, but Babcock is apparently intent on having him on the top 2 lines and the power play.

I agree with this post. How many times does Flip brings the puck in the zone, fight hard to keep it, then pass it to Sammy who just fires a shot that has no realistic chance of going in? Far too often. Sammy’s just got no creativity about his game and unfortunately Babs is trying to make an average player into a top 6 forward.

[eva unit zero 271]

There are two options for lines I would like to see:

With ZDH.

Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Hudler/Filppula/Kopecky

Cleary/Draper/Samuelsson

Maltby/Drake/Franzen

Without ZDH

Holmstrom/Zetterberg/Samuelsson

Hudler/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Cleary/Filppula/Franzen

Maltby/Draper/Drake

I would rather see the second unit work out, as it has three lines capable of decent scoring as well as a veteran shutdown line. I want to see Kopecky given a full-time shot on the second line because he was playin well there in a brief stint before Franzen returned from injury.

[Dabura 12,232]

But Datsyuk is still putting up points.

I never said he wasn't. My point was that they're both playmakers, and if our top playmaker isn't doing much in the way of scoring goals, it's hard to fault his understudy for having the same problem.

I see Hudler as being easily replaceable. Smallish guy with flashy skills? Meh. Flip, I think, has a much less common set of assets that, with time, can make him a elite player in his mold (playmaker). I don't see Hudler becoming a top goal-scorer.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I never said he wasn't. My point was that they're both playmakers, and if our top playmaker isn't doing much in the way of scoring goals, it's hard to fault his understudy for having the same problem.

I see Hudler as being easily replaceable. Smallish guy with flashy skills? Meh. Flip, I think, has a much less common set of assets that, with time, can make him a elite player in his mold (playmaker). I don't see Hudler becoming a top goal-scorer.

But filppulas not putting up points either. Hes not scoring, and hes not creating chances.

And whoever said he was playing hard every night game in and game out, well Flip has been wishy-washy at best. I really do like Flips game overall, but Id be lying if I wasnt incredibly disappointed with his incosistent play that on a few occasions was worthy of a healthy scratch.

[Grittzkey 1]

EVA@@@@@@

your king, Hudz,Flipper,Koko.. young talent, all have either scoring touch, all unselfish players.. would mesh great together..

[Dabura 12,232]

But filppulas not putting up points either.

I'm not really sure what you want me to say. Yes, ideally, a team is run as a meritocracy; you play well, you play more, you play poorly, you play less. Should Hudler be enjoying an expanded role because he's producing more than Flip? Probably. But if this small window of time is going to be used as proof positive that Hudler has "earned 'it,'" I think you could just as easily look at Flip's postseason performance and give him the benefit of the doubt. The obvious argument against that, of course, is that Hudler simply hasn't been given the chance to prove himself like that. And maybe there's some truth to that.

But I like to think (perhaps foolishly) that Babs is thinking in terms of the big-picture. More specifically, in terms of long-term development. Hudler is straightforward: he's a shifty goal-scorer who, like you said, can make chances for himself if he has to. Stick him on the fourth line and he can still put up decent numbers. I think Flip, at least at this early stage in his career, is not as flexible; the best thing you can do for his development right now is give him a line that will really allow him to hone his skills as a playmaker. For that you need a creative, relatively experienced goal-scorer and some muscle. Basically, we're talking about a secondary scoring unit.

That's not to say Flip hasn't dropped the ball. However, if I had to choose right now between having him on the second line and Hudler on the fourth or vice-versa, I'd go with the former. At worst you'd be getting a struggling Flip who's learning the ropes but has demonstrated he can be a crucial top-sixer, and a Hudler who is still putting up reasonable numbers. The worst you'd get with the latter is good production from Hudler (which, honestly, could be pretty easily replaced) and poor production and stunted development on Flip's end.

This is all moot, though, because the only thing that's really going to light a fire under this forward unit is new blood. The crazy thing is, it's only one goal-scoring winger/power forward and one big-bodied banger away from being damn near unstoppable. In my alternate reality, Holland is the one who stole Penner.

Z-D-H

Penner-Flip-Hudler

Gah.