No Norris for Nick

[Andy Pred 48 337]

At this moment in time, Pronger and Niedermeyer have got a job on their hands getting the Ducks in the playoffs!!

[Aeothe Kaear 0]

Not going to happen, even with a full season Niedermayer is second fiddle to Lidstrom. Aside from being a little bit more physical the only attribute Niedermayer has over Lidstrom is overrated hype, which last time I checked Niedermayer is number one on defesne in that category, which actually amazes me since he's a great player yet still remains overrated as all hell.

Niedermayer is a MUCH better skater.

[Duck Guy 86]

no way Nieds will get it this year. There is no way that he can catch up to Lids this season. Even if he is as good as he was last season for the ducks he was only a +6 at the end and lids was a +40 no competition. but maybe if people believe he is the only reason the ducks make the playoffs. But even that would be stretching it because he missed a total of 35 games i think it is.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Duck Guy

[rage 24]

You can't be serious! Niedermayer??

Someone might be in for a pleasant surprise.

[Opie 308]

Niedermayer is a MUCH better skater.

I don't know about that, depends how you define skater.

DO you mean faster, that doesn't mean he is a better skater, imo!

Lids is a smooth effortless skater who (especially if you watched last night) brings the puck up ice, is very good at walking the puck across the blue line, he is very rarely ever in a bad position on the ice, which has a lot to do with the ability to control where you are on the ice, as in do you over skate or under skate the play putting yourself in a bad spot.

Had you said a better skater I wouldn't have replied but to say a MUCH better skater I have to disagree with you there sir!

Lids is the total package, last night in one play he:

Poke the puck free on D, broke up ice to cover for the back checking forward who was still deep in the D zone, then he skated the puck around the net (he has been watching to much Lebda) and set up a play, all with plenty of time to get back to the D zone.

The man does a lot of things very very well, yet because he is European, quiet, not arrogant, and does his job in a very blue collar workman way, he does not get the hype and the exposure he should be getting.

Don't get me wrong people are starting to talk a lot about him now, but this is 5 Norris Trophies later!

[toby91_ca 620]

I don't know about that, depends how you define skater.

DO you mean faster, that doesn't mean he is a better skater, imo!

Lids is a smooth effortless skater who (especially if you watched last night) brings the puck up ice, is very good at walking the puck across the blue line, he is very rarely ever in a bad position on the ice, which has a lot to do with the ability to control where you are on the ice, as in do you over skate or under skate the play putting yourself in a bad spot.

Had you said a better skater I wouldn't have replied but to say a MUCH better skater I have to disagree with you there sir!

Lids is the total package, last night in one play he:

Poke the puck free on D, broke up ice to cover for the back checking forward who was still deep in the D zone, then he skated the puck around the net (he has been watching to much Lebda) and set up a play, all with plenty of time to get back to the D zone.

The man does a lot of things very very well, yet because he is European, quiet, not arrogant, and does his job in a very blue collar workman way, he does not get the hype and the exposure he should be getting.

Don't get me wrong people are starting to talk a lot about him now, but this is 5 Norris Trophies later!

It doesn't matter how you define skater, Niedermayer is clearly a better skater. This doesn't mean Lidstrom isn't a good skater, Niedermayer is simply that good.

[A.T.Hun 0]

At this stage of the season, I don't even think Pronger's in the running statistically either. Last I saw, he was a -2 on the season.

His points are pretty good: 5-21-26 but he's -5

By way of comparison Nick is: 3-24-27 and is +14

As others have said, it's a little early to be talking about the Norris. Having said that, it's hard to imagine a scenario where Niedermayer (sp?) would end up being a candidate without a career year, yes, a historically unprecedented year.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Where did this post come from? Why would he win the Norris? He's missed a third of the season, and by the way, he's not as good as Lidstrom anyway.

Where did this post come from? It exists solely because somebody else wants to ***** and moan about Niedermayer or the Ducks. It has nothing to do with the Norris. Niedermayer isn't going to pull a Barry Bonds and start posting 2 points per game all of a sudden in his latter years so there's no way he's gonna catch Nick in that regard. He's not going to be "handed" anything just becuase the media are hailing his return as the revival of the Ducks. Which by the way isn't that far fetched. If Nick were coming back to the Wings the media would do the same thing for us. You don't add one of the 3 best dmen in the world to your lineup and the media just be ho hum about it.

Anyway, this is a thinly, and I mean thinly veiled ***** fest and nothing more.

Yeah, Niedermayer's back. Whoopdef***ing do. The Ducks are better now and so what. Bring them on. We need to face a team like that and prove we can outwork them and beat them with both skill and physical play and put them away this time.

Stop being so afraid of Niedermayer and the Ducks you *****! (directed at the OP)

[Opie 308]

It doesn't matter how you define skater, Niedermayer is clearly a better skater. This doesn't mean Lidstrom isn't a good skater, Niedermayer is simply that good.

I don't buy into the whole Neids is a god of defenseman bit so tell me why is he a better skater, what is it that he does that nick can't or doesn't?

Or

Am I just supposed to take your word for it that he is that much better.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Opie

[toby91_ca 620]

I don't buy into the whole Neids is a god of defenseman bit so tell me why is he a better skater, what is it that he does that nick can't or doesn't?

Or

Am I just supposed to take your word for it that he is that much better.

You're just supposed to take my word for it

Seriously though, I'm sure someone could try to explain why he is a better skater, but I find that to be very difficult to put into words, you actually have to watch them.

Also, I didn't say Niedermayer was a god of defenseman, I simply said he was the superior skater. Niedermayer's skating ability is one of the main reasons why he is one of the best defensemen in the league. Lidstrom is one of the best due to his smarts, sound position game and shot from the point.

I would guess that most would consider Niedermayer to be amoung the best skating defensemen in the history of the game. I know there aren't many on my list ahead of him.

Edited December 18, 2007 by toby91_ca

[norrisnick 1]

I don't buy into the whole Neids is a god of defenseman bit so tell me why is he a better skater, what is it that he does that nick can't or doesn't?

Or

Am I just supposed to take your word for it that he is that much better.

Even if you don't put Niedermayer among the gods of defensemen (I don't) you have to put him among the gods of skaters. To put it bluntly, compared to Scott, Nick is slow and plodding. Though IMO that makes Lidstrom all the more amazing.

Like I said last season when the Norris was essentially a three headed monster, Scott is bigger and stronger than Nick, and Pronger is a better skater than Nick, but Nick is the best defenseman of the three because he's the smartest guy in the league.

[vangvace 12]

Could it happen? yes I believe in the end he could be in the running and possibly win the Norris. However I don't think it's likely with as many dmen are playing well this season

[lfd250 1]

who says Neids even makes it through the season? But since you brought it up, I say he gets it. Before you come after me, lets think. 1. He was close to retirement and is leaning that way already for next year. 2. If the Ducks turn it around everyone will say it's because of him. 3. I promise you this will be his last year. why? The travel. The ducks and all the western teams have had it good. They've had to make a trip east every now and then, but 32 of their games have been close to home. Now with playing every team once, there will be a lot of travel to the EAST coast for him and I just don't see him doing it. So 99% chance of this being his last year, they'll give it to him.

Oh, and who ever said that Neid. was a better skater, well Lebda is a better skater, he's faster, joins the play and gets back to play D so based on this he probably is on your list as well. More then Lids.

[Opie 308]

Even if you don't put Niedermayer among the gods of defensemen (I don't) you have to put him among the gods of skaters. To put it bluntly, compared to Scott, Nick is slow and plodding. Though IMO that makes Lidstrom all the more amazing.

Like I said last season when the Norris was essentially a three headed monster, Scott is bigger and stronger than Nick, and Pronger is a better skater than Nick, but Nick is the best defenseman of the three because he's the smartest guy in the league.

Slow and plodding, I am sorry but I must have seen the wrong #5 skating the puck up through the zone last night, it is not that Nick is slower or a worse skater, it is that he uses it differently.

I like to compare his skating to how Larry Murphy played D, towards the end of his career everyone thought they could skate right by him, like he was a pylon, but his poke check was so deft and his position was so spot on that it was hard to beat him one on one.

The difference being, that Larry could not body up a guy at the end of his career if he needed it, Nick can skate when he needs to.

I guess I have a hard time watching two guys skate up the ice, and saying that Scott Is MUCH better.

Like I said in my first post, better yes, but not that much. I have heard countless announcers say Nick skates as effortlessly as any of them out there and that he skates as well at the start as at the end of a game.

I have heard hockey people talk about how is stride is amazing, to watch him skate you would think he is barely moving, but he moves from zone to zone or spot to spot very well, and with decent speed.

Listen don't get me wrong I am not being a homer, Lids is the best D-man in the game and last year (before taking 35+ games off this season) Neids and Pronger were 2a and 2b. I can admit when a wings player is bested by some one else.

I asked for a specific reason why Neids is a better skater and so far all I have heard is "because I say so".

That doesn't convince me, I gave example of how Lids is a great skating D-man, yet none of you can lay out a situation and say Neids would do it better.

If it is that hard to say he is better because of x,y, and z than how can you say he is MUCH better.

BTW there is no way in hell Pronger is a better skater than Lids, more physical defenseman, harder shot, yeah I could see that, but he is not a great skater! If Neids makes Lids look slow and plodding what does he make Pronger look like.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't buy into the whole Neids is a god of defenseman bit so tell me why is he a better skater, what is it that he does that nick can't or doesn't?

Or

Am I just supposed to take your word for it that he is that much better.

Don't be such a homer Opie. Sheesh, talk about splitting hairs. Niedermayer is every bit as good at being in the right place on the ice as you define skating. After that, it comes down to speed and clearly, Niedermayer is a faster skater.

If Niedermayer is a 10, then Lidstrom is a 9. You're right, somebody was wrong to call Scott a "much" better skater. But he is better in simplistic terms like 90 mph is faster than 88 mph and 5 is greater than 4.675.

PS: Most of the people who comment on how effortlessly Nick skates are Redwings related people. And they should know. If you've watched New Jersey and Ducks games your entire life you'd have heard a trillion times how Niedermayer is the best skating defenseman in the league.

Niedermayer isn't the most explosive or the fastest skater but the complete package of being able to rush the puck, with speed, go below the goal line and get back, along with his positioning. He's up there right behind Bobby Orr.

As far as something definitive, how exactly do you measure that? I'm not sure. All I know is that when there biographies are written one of Niedermayer's biggest attributes will be listed as his skating. Nick's skating will be listed about 3rd or 4th behind his other brilliant attributes. Lids smarts helps drive his game and Niedermayer's legs help drive his more than they do for Nick.

Edited December 18, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[Opie 308]

GS&T,

Thank you for proving what I was saying, I agreed form the start that Neids is a better skater, just not as drastically as people were saying. Because like you said it is the difference between a 90 mph fastball and an 88, while yes there is a difference it is not like 95 compared to 88.

I don't think he is right up there with Orr though, I don't think any defenseman will ever skate like that again, he was as graceful, shifty, explosive skater as any of the great forwards that play today. I can't think of one defenseman in the league, that could skate with the top 25 skating forwards (agility, control w/ the puck, body control (not leaning to create speed but lose control *I know wierd but that was the best way to word it)).

To me there are only 3 types of skating, the players who set themselves above everyone else , the horrible skaters, and everyone else.

Skating is one of those things that is almost pass or fail. Look at Grigs, he couldn't skate to save his ass in the NHL, it is a detriment to him, Luc R couldn't skate well either, however he had great hockey instincts that made up for that.

In my opinion, being a good skater and being a fast skater are two different qualities. A guy could be able to skate 40mph but if he can't stop himself, or can't skate at any other speed he is a horrible skater yet he has tremendous speed.

Saying some one is a much better skater is not like saying I am taller than you, it is not that simple and I think lots of times people confuse speed with skating ability.

And again I will say, Neids is the #2 D-man in the league (or rather was, present tense is still to be decided), he is a better skater, but not by a large margin. Just like Lids is better positionally, but not by a whole lot.

The two when added with Pronger and Zubov round out the elite D-men in the league, and imo Neids and Lids are at the top of that heap.

I think Lids all around game is superior to Neids, but I am not prepared to say far superior, and that was my issue with the thread. The superlatives that are thrown around here like that make posts look ridiculous.

[FedorovGurl 2]

And Lidstrom did not sit on his duff for half the season trying to decide if he wanted to even play any more. Puh-leez.

[imisssergei 0]

who says Neids even makes it through the season? But since you brought it up, I say he gets it. Before you come after me, lets think. 1. He was close to retirement and is leaning that way already for next year. 2. If the Ducks turn it around everyone will say it's because of him. 3. I promise you this will be his last year. why? The travel. The ducks and all the western teams have had it good. They've had to make a trip east every now and then, but 32 of their games have been close to home. Now with playing every team once, there will be a lot of travel to the EAST coast for him and I just don't see him doing it. So 99% chance of this being his last year, they'll give it to him.

Oh, and who ever said that Neid. was a better skater, well Lebda is a better skater, he's faster, joins the play and gets back to play D so based on this he probably is on your list as well. More then Lids.

The extra travel won't effect WC teams nearly as much as it will EC teams. Even so, it won't really effect the Ducks all that much. After all, flying to Boston isn't much further than flying to Detroit.

I hate when people say Nick is clearly the Norris winner. What happens if (knock on wood) he falls into the boards and breaks his ankle and boom, his season and career are over. Does he still win the Norris? Nick is not the clear cut Norris for the same reason Scotty isn't, the season isn't over and the voting hasn't taken place yet.

Let it go people. Scotty is back, deal with it, and lets move on. I seriously don't understand why everyone feels the need to ***** and moan about it anymore.