12/20 GDT: Blues 3, Red Wings 2

[esteef 2,679]

Side note, I like how Cleary sat and waited until Jackman joined his team to get out of the penalty box and run to the safety of his teammates. It was very obvious that the Wings possess little to no toughness. I felt bad for Datsyuk having to fend for himself time after time. A player like that should never have to get into it, especially with a guy like Jackman (although he was only one of many Blues to stick it to him last night).

If I were Ken Holland, I'd hand Phoenix a blank sheet of paper and ask them to name their price for Shane Doan.

Yep, everyone's scared of big bad Jackman. It's a known fact he goes after non-fighters (like Datsyuk). He's well aware that guys like Downey, Drake, Kopecky, and Lilja would go with him, which is why he goes after guys like Dats and Hudler. What a tough guy!

Refs missed some calls and the Blues capitalized, it happens.

Steady as she goes boys!

esteef

[BlueMonk 102]

Babs not dressing Downey for this game surprised me, but I doubt he'll repeat this next game against the Blues.

[Yemack 1]

Knee on Knee was dirty and cheap

whoever did it 'must pay the price'

[blues_demitra38 11]

Yep, everyone's scared of big bad Jackman. It's a known fact he goes after non-fighters (like Datsyuk). He's well aware that guys like Downey, Drake, Kopecky, and Lilja would go with him, which is why he goes after guys like Dats and Hudler. What a tough guy!

Okay, who would you have him go with? Mayers took out Drake despite Dallas keeping his visor on. Maybe Hudler? How about the big bad Kopecky? Franzen? Who, exactly? Jackman is not an enforcer, he is a solid defenseman with an attitude. Comparable forward counterparts are the aforementioned Doan, Iginla, Nash, Bertuzzi etc. Skilled players who aren't afraid to dish it out. The two superstars on the Wings happen to be Lady Byng candidates. That's not a bad thing but when there's NO ONE else to stick up for them, things like last night happen.

Like I said, a power forward should be #1 on the priority list in Detroit.

[esteef 2,679]

Okay, who would you have him go with?

Downey, Drake, Kopecky, Lilja (hell even Lebda)...you know, guys that will actually fight. Everyone on the planet knows Datsyuk will not fight, which is why tough turd Jackman gave him that extra s*** after the whistle. Guys on the ice know who the fighters are, purposely avoiding them just makes him look like a puss. Having an "attitude" with smaller, unwilling combatants is the cheap way to try and appear tough.

I agree though, we could use a power forward.

esteef

Edited December 21, 2007 by esteef

[Packer487 3]

The first 3 of those games barely qualify as games though. He didn't even have to be mediocre to put up great numbers in those games. Again, stats don't tell the whole story. I ain't knocking either, just saying, I don't think Hasek has played any better than average at all this season. You see that in looking at the goals he gives up, how he plays against what teams, the intensity of the games, etc. You don't see that just looking at stats, but coincidentally, the stats tend to line up with the statement. He's struggled to stay above a .900 sv% in most of the games he's played even since he's "returned." He's getting wins and playing descent, but look at the team in front of him and the teams he's facing and how colossally shut down some of those teams have been before you put too much stock in your first statement.

You're so full of it. Osgood kicks out his pad really quick on a shot from the point and Daniels and Redmond are like "BIG STOP OSGOOD!" and the sheep here believe it and say "OMG HE WAS AMAZING!" (It's already happened 2 or 3 times on this thread). Note that I'm not saying he played bad last night. I didn't blame him for any of the goals, and I've repeatedly said he was fine, in this thread.

But Dom has a game like that (like in those ones that "barely qualify as games") and we can go ahead and write off those performances. It's BS.

I already debunked the "Teams he's facing" myth a few posts back, since I knew that was coming.

And the "team in front of him" failed him miserably in those back-to-back losses to St. Louis and Chicago, but that didn't stop people here from wanting to hang him. But let's go ahead and give the team in front of him all the credit for when Dom plays well and none of the credit when it's the Oz in net. He does it all himself, yussir.

My favorite part of this whole thing is that Osgood is playing the best hockey of his career (and he is, he's been out of his mind), people are falling all over themselves to jerk him off, and yet his save percentage is just the slightest tick about Dom's career mark. If you want an example of why Hasek is going to get everyone opportunity to be the playoff starter, that's why. It's a testament to how great Hasek has been in his career. He's basically played 700 games at the top-notch level that Osgood is currently playing at. It's pretty damn impressive if you ask me--and probably the best example of why people should show him the slightest bit of respect.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Both our goalies are pretty bad ass.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Packer487

[Guest MrSandMan]

I just think it's ridiculously funny that people blame Hasek and he didn't even play.

Despite Ozzy letting in 3 goals on 24 shots, I still don't blame him. He came up big to keep the Wings in the game.

I honestly didn't think we'd win last night, back to back games against a well rested team with a hot goalie isn't a good formula.

And it's refreshing to see a loss once in awhile... it'll help keep our team in check. And hopefully Babs and Holland will wake up and see our holes.

[gcom007 1,465]

I just think it's ridiculously funny that people blame Hasek and he didn't even play.

What worries me more is that you seem to be taking a sarcastic comment made by someone seriously.

[cprice12 117]

Everyone on the planet knows Datsyuk will not fight, which is why tough turd Jackman gave him that extra s*** after the whistle. Guys on the ice know who the fighters are, purposely avoiding them just makes him look like a puss.

WRONG.

Jackman got in Datsyuk's face because he was poking at the puck after it was covered.

If you poke at the puck after it's covered, or try to dig the puck out from under a goalie's pad, you're going to get roughed up. That's hockey...that's the code. Always has been.

Blues / Wings games are fun again. St. Louis is 6-3-1 in their last 10 games against Detroit.

That's more like it.

[esteef 2,679]

WRONG.

Jackman got in Datsyuk's face because he was poking at the puck after it was covered.

If you poke at the puck after it's covered, or try to dig the puck out from under a goalie's pad, you're going to get roughed up. That's hockey...that's the code. Always has been.

Blues / Wings games are fun again. St. Louis is 6-3-1 in their last 10 games against Detroit.

That's more like it.

Jackman went above and beyond what normally follows a "poke after the whistle" for reasons I already stated. I highly doubt he gives Downey or Lilja the same treatment if they were the ones "poking" Legace. Him being a ***** still stands.

RIGHT!

esteef

[gcom007 1,465]

You're so full of it. Osgood kicks out his pad really quick on a shot from the point and Daniels and Redmond are like "BIG STOP OSGOOD!" and the sheep here believe it and say "OMG HE WAS AMAZING!" (It's already happened 2 or 3 times on this thread). Note that I'm not saying he played bad last night. I didn't blame him for any of the goals, and I've repeatedly said he was fine, in this thread.

But Dom has a game like that (like in those ones that "barely qualify as games") and we can go ahead and write off those performances. It's BS.

I already debunked the "Teams he's facing" myth a few posts back, since I knew that was coming.

And the "team in front of him" failed him miserably in those back-to-back losses to St. Louis and Chicago, but that didn't stop people here from wanting to hang him. But let's go ahead and give the team in front of him all the credit for when Dom plays well and none of the credit when it's the Oz in net. He does it all himself, yussir.

My favorite part of this whole thing is that Osgood is playing the best hockey of his career (and he is, he's been out of his mind), people are falling all over themselves to jerk him off, and yet his save percentage is just the slightest tick about Dom's career mark. If you want an example of why Hasek is going to get everyone opportunity to be the playoff starter, that's why. It's a testament to how great Hasek has been in his career. He's basically played 700 games at the top-notch level that Osgood is currently playing at. It's pretty damn impressive if you ask me--and probably the best example of why people should show him the slightest bit of respect.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Both our goalies are pretty bad ass.

I'm full of it? I didn't say Osgood was amazing last night. I frankly said that I don't think he was. I thought he played well enough to win and quite good, but amazing would be him letting in one goal and stealing the game. He's had plenty of games this year where he racked up great numbers because he had very little to do. I have readily stated that and will continue to. However, in the same breath, he's played great under a lot of adversity, stolen games and consistently put up really great numbers no matter when he plays, who he plays and how the team in front of him plays. He hasn't had any semblance of a weak game yet. I thought his weakest moment came last night after the 3rd goal and you still can't say he played anything but a solid game.

Hasek on the other hand hasn't been so consistent. He let in 3 goals in those first 3 games back but 2 especially were completely bunk games. I'm not saying it was bad, but his play wasn't quite as hot considering what he had to face after that wasn't much tougher. He's let in quite a few soft goals that he should stop. The reality of the matter is that just about any goalie should be putting up great numbers when you've got the Red Wings skaters in front of you. While this does neutralize Osgood's stats somewhat, it also doesn't say much for the fact that Hasek has put up descent/average numbers and efforts at best since he "returned."

I'm not saying Osgood has been "uber lollerz like amazing whoa roflmao!" I'm not Mickey Redmond. Look back in these threads and you'll see that I rarely if ever make comments like "great save Osgood!" even when he makes great saves. Again, I'll say it, he should. That's his job and this team makes it easier on the goalies than any other team in the league more often than not. More often than not he's just done his job, but there's been more than a few occasions where his play was nothing short of outstanding and he stole games. All the while, no bad games. You simply cannot say that about Hasek.

You can say he's improved. He has. But you have to admit he's played some bad games whether his team hung him out to dry or not. You should be saying he played as bad as the rest of the team on those nights because he didn't do anything to help matters whereas on similar nights Osgood has stolen games and kept us in. In fact, I don't think you can say that Hasek has played one outstanding game yet. I'm not saying it's been all bad, but he hasn't been a standout in any game and again, in those games when he could be a standout, he played as mediocre as everyone else on the Wings.

Again, to be far too redundant, I'm not saying he sucks. He doesn't. He's improved. But you can't in your right mind say he's played great for anything more than brief moments this year...just flashes of brilliance between average and sometimes even mediocre play. You don't have to like Osgood and you're correct in recognizing that his numbers are somewhat padded by the team he's on, but so are Hasek's this year which aren't remotely as good. Not to mention the countless other great goalies on great teams in the past. The fact is, game in and game out, Osgood's gotten it done. No bad games. Great stats. Stolen games.

Osgood has done his job about as flawlessly as one reasonably can this year. Hasek hasn't. Osgood's play is not always as brilliant as some make it out to be, but it hasn't had to be. He gets the job done, again, about as flawlessly as possible. And again, Hasek has not. Anything but. Bottom line.

Time out on the goalies for a second, I think the biggest thing we learned from this game is that if you play us physical, we have the potential of losing our composure like last night. That's worrisome. Granted, Maltby and Downey weren't in the lineup and they add some more grit to the equation, last's night game raises some eyebrows about what we might need to add come the trade deadline.

[cprice12 117]

Jackman went above and beyond what normally follows a "poke after the whistle" for reasons I already stated. I highly doubt he gives Downey or Lilja the same treatment if they were the ones "poking" Legace. Him being a ***** still stands.

RIGHT!

esteef

I'm sorry you felt one of your ballerinas was roughed up a bit. It comes with the territory. If you don't want to get shoved around...then don't take late stabs at the puck after it's covered. It's that simple.

And Downey has to actually be in the lineup to fight. Healthy scratches usually aren't that intimidating.

And FTR, Jackman would have done the same thing to ANYONE, including "press box" Downey, if he had done what Datsyuk did. Just as your D-men would have done the same if a Blues player took a late swipe at the puck after being covered.

Maybe Downey will play next game...we'll see.

[esteef 2,679]

I'm sorry you felt one of your ballerinas was roughed up a bit. It comes with the territory. If you don't want to get shoved around...then don't take late stabs at the puck after it's covered. It's that simple.

And Downey has to actually be in the lineup to fight. Healthy scratches usually aren't that intimidating.

And FTR, Jackman would have done the same thing to ANYONE, including "press box" Downey, if he had done what Datsyuk did. Just as your D-men would have done the same if a Blues player took a late swipe at the puck after being covered.

Maybe Downey will play next game...we'll see.

Please, if anything I saw more good hits coming from Datsyuk last night than I've ever seen, so thank you Blues! Saying the puck was covered is certainly relative as the play was still live (no whistle).

Downey not being in the lineup doesn't change the fact that turdboy still seeks out non-fighters.

Also, I've got Center Ice and watch other divisional games, Jackman does not do that to everybody.

Good day.

esteef

[Herr Hockey 0]

By Osgood?!? 3 goals against on 24 shots...I think not, Legace had a pretty marvelous outing. If I were Kenny Holland, I would be looking around for what I could get for Osgood while his market value is at its highest. Did someone say, Ryan Malone?

LMFAO

Someone change this guys username to Junior_GM

[Packer487 3]

I'm full of it?

To try and write off those games against Carolina, Minnesota, and Montreal? Yes. All three of those teams can score. They didn't have a ton of shots, but there were quite a few good scoring chances. This is what I mean when I say people worry about stats too damn much. If we let em get 30 shots by flipping shots from the blueline, his numbers would look better, but it doesn't mean he played any better. We hold teams' shot totals down, but there are a lot of times where the chances we give up are top notch.

I didn't say Osgood was amazing last night. I frankly said that I don't think he was. I thought he played well enough to win and quite good, but amazing would be him letting in one goal and stealing the game. He's had plenty of games this year where he racked up great numbers because he had very little to do. I have readily stated that and will continue to.

Fair. As long as you use the same standard for both goalies, that's fine. There's quite a few people who don't get the point though.

However, in the same breath, he's played great under a lot of adversity, stolen games and consistently put up really great numbers no matter when he plays, who he plays and how the team in front of him plays. He hasn't had any semblance of a weak game yet. I thought his weakest moment came last night after the 3rd goal and you still can't say he played anything but a solid game.

He was fine, but the team playing badly can make you look silly a lot of times. People on this board--not you in particular--are a lot more forgiving of Osgood when the team hangs him out to dry (like last night...he probably couldn't have stopped any of those) whereas if it was Dom, all we'd hear about is how he sucks and how Ozzie would've found a way to stop that because he's OMG so good. Don't try and say it's not true. We've seen it several times this year.

Hasek on the other hand hasn't been so consistent. He let in 3 goals in those first 3 games back but 2 especially were completely bunk games.

And that's where I say you're full of crap. I don't care about the shot totals. I watched all three of those games and he made some really nice stops. It wasn't a game where you'd be like "OMG give him the Vezina" but it's just as silly to completely write him off as if he had nothing to do.

I'm not saying it was bad, but his play wasn't quite as hot considering what he had to face after that wasn't much tougher. He's let in quite a few soft goals that he should stop. The reality of the matter is that just about any goalie should be putting up great numbers when you've got the Red Wings skaters in front of you. While this does neutralize Osgood's stats somewhat, it also doesn't say much for the fact that Hasek has put up descent/average numbers and efforts at best since he "returned."

5-0-1, 1.75, .913 is average/decent?

You can say he's improved. He has. But you have to admit he's played some bad games whether his team hung him out to dry or not.

That would be fair.

You should be saying he played as bad as the rest of the team on those nights because he didn't do anything to help matters whereas on similar nights Osgood has stolen games and kept us in.

I'm sorry, but if you give a team enough short-handed breakaways, odd man rushes, and uncontested shots from the slot, they're going to score goals. Even Vezina-Hasek would've been giving up goals in those games. There have been nights where the Team D in front of Osgood hasn't been great, but he hasn't had to face anything like those games against St. Louis and Chicago where the team was asleep at the switch the entire damn night.

In fact, I don't think you can say that Hasek has played one outstanding game yet. I'm not saying it's been all bad, but he hasn't been a standout in any game and again, in those games when he could be a standout, he played as mediocre as everyone else on the Wings.

I'd be inclined to agree with that, depending on your definition of outstanding.

Again, to be far too redundant, I'm not saying he sucks. He doesn't. He's improved. But you can't in your right mind say he's played great for anything more than brief moments this year...just flashes of brilliance between average and sometimes even mediocre play. You don't have to like Osgood and you're correct in recognizing that his numbers are somewhat padded by the team he's on, but so are Hasek's this year which aren't remotely as good. Not to mention the countless other great goalies on great teams in the past. The fact is, game in and game out, Osgood's gotten it done. No bad games. Great stats. Stolen games.

Osgood has done his job about as flawlessly as one reasonably can this year. Hasek hasn't. Osgood's play is not always as brilliant as some make it out to be, but it hasn't had to be. He gets the job done, again, about as flawlessly as possible. And again, Hasek has not. Anything but. Bottom line.

That's fair as well, though I think you don't give him enough credit for this last stretch, writing it off as average. He's been really solid the last six games and his truly bad games this year have coincided with truly bad games out of the Red Wings team. But he gets killed for those. That game against St. Louis where he got the hook b/c of giving up 4 on 12 shots: There wasn't a damn thing he could've done about the first three of those goals. The fourth was on the weak side, but at that point, the confidence is shaken, things are starting to steamroll, and Mayers made a great shot. 1 "bad" goal, 3 that weren't dissimilar from the ones we gave up last night, and people wanted to run him out of the city. It's just not consistent.

Time out on the goalies for a second, I think the biggest thing we learned from this game is that if you play us physical, we have the potential of losing our composure like last night. That's worrisome. Granted, Maltby and Downey weren't in the lineup and they add some more grit to the equation, last's night game raises some eyebrows about what we might need to add come the trade deadline.

I'd agree with that. As well as Dats has played, you can still rattle him somewhat by taking the body--and to be fair it's like that with a lot of smaller star players. I don't know what you all see in Downey. I appreciate that he's not afraid to fight, but the guy just can't play the game. He's useless out there. Ideally, I'd like to see a decent player that's able to fight, but I know every team in the league would like one of those guys.

I'll hafta catch ya the next time around. I'm heading home for Christmas, so I doubt I'll be back on the internet before this go-round is over.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Packer487

[Kp-Wings 3]

The loss was inevitable. You can't win them all, and I don't know why everyone is throwing the season away because of that one loss. Besides: St. Louis has the Wings number right now, and for a variety of reasons. The biggest one, I feel, is toughness. But... that's another story for another day.

In all, I actually enjoyed the game. Nice to see a fight, and from Dallas Drake no less.

[wingslogo19 281]

I still have to say it, Jackman is a PUNK

[cprice12 117]

Please, if anything I saw more good hits coming from Datsyuk last night than I've ever seen, so thank you Blues! Saying the puck was covered is certainly relative as the play was still live (no whistle).

That doesn't change the fact that if you go poking around the goalie, you are going to get roughed up.

Jesus. It's not the ice capades. It's hockey.

If you're going to cry about it, you need to find a new sport to watch.

Downey not being in the lineup doesn't change the fact that turdboy still seeks out non-fighters.

Maybe it just seems that way to you because Detroit's whole lineup is filled with non-fighters. Hmmm...

Also, I've got Center Ice and watch other divisional games, Jackman does not do that to everybody.

Center Ice, eh? Good for you.

However, I am from St. Louis and have FSMW and CW11...I also split season tickets with two other guys.

I see Jackman play every game, and you're wrong. Sorry. But, hey... why take my word for it? I've only seen him play in just about every game since he came into the league. What do I know?

If you want to pick on Jackman, pick on his defensive play, which has lacked this year...but he's ALWAYS going to stick up for his goalie and players taking liberties after the puck is covered.

Good day.

[Nero 20]

I don't know. I prefer people in our lineup who have talent, rather than being just a goon.

The 25-7-3 speaks for itself.

[esteef 2,679]

That doesn't change the fact that if you go poking around the goalie, you are going to get roughed up.

Jesus. It's not the ice capades. It's hockey.

If you're going to cry about it, you need to find a new sport to watch.

Maybe it just seems that way to you because Detroit's whole lineup is filled with non-fighters. Hmmm...

Center Ice, eh? Good for you.

However, I am from St. Louis and have FSMW and CW11...I also split season tickets with two other guys.

I see Jackman play every game, and you're wrong. Sorry. But, hey... why take my word for it? I've only seen him play in just about every game since he came into the league. What do I know?

If you want to pick on Jackman, pick on his defensive play, which has lacked this year...but he's ALWAYS going to stick up for his goalie and players taking liberties after the puck is covered.

Good day.

No one's crying, you just apparently needed further explanation on everything. So I obliged. Detroit has fighters, I listed at least four of them twice for you but you still don't seem to get it. Jackman's a twit who chases after smaller guys. You seeing more Blues games than me doesn't take away all of the games I've seen where Jackman wasn't Mr. Tough guy around the net with bigger tougher players.

So essentially your argument is a big Nuh-uh! To which I say Yeah-Huh!!!!!

esteef

[gcom007 1,465]

I thought I'd say, I thought we might lose this game beforehand for no reason other than that we were more or less due for a loss, Osgood definitely was due for a loss and the Blues were due for a win plus the game a night before...so I wasn't surprised.

[Grateful Gadsby 10]

It's important not to forget how and why the Blues always seem to play the Wings as if it's a SCF Game 7: the Blues have been the Wings' ***** for a decade. Can't blame them for being sick of it. Couple that with the fact that the franchise really has never accomplished anything in its 40-year history, and it's easy to see why the team and its fans start foaming at the mouth at the very sight of a Winged Wheel.