Anyone picture Franzen as a 20-goal man?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

So you think it is realistic to expect 6 forwards to be putting up points all the time? We're at the top of the league in goals and we don't even have that. I think you're expectations are a little high.

Maybe they are, but I honestly think there's at least 3 teams in the West that have a better forward group than us, namely the Ducks, Stars, and divealanche.

I don't expect our 2nd line to score all the time, but consistency will be needed, because come playoff time, there's no chance to rebound from a long slump.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Not in the least little bit. I thought it'd be a stretch (and successful) if he got 15, especially since he started off so slowly this year.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Name a western team that has gotten consistent secondary scoring throughout the whole season.

Or an Eastern Conference team possibly outside of Pitt for that matter...

[kozac 10]

I did.

If you remember, at the beginning of the season our first line was Datsyuk-Holmstrom-Franzen. And they were tearing it up in the preseason too. In the second game of the season Franzen went down with a knee injury and then missed all of October. After that, the lines kind of developed new chemistry by the time he returned he was an odd man out. It took him a while to get into that first line shape again.

I was fully expecting him to put up 25 goals, he was just unfortunate to start the season the way he did. Oh well, as long as he brings it in the playoffs, it doesn't really matter right?

[Kp-Wings 3]

No, not at all. He's been a nice surprise these past couple games. Now he just needs to keep up the pace.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Maybe they are, but I honestly think there's at least 3 teams in the West that have a better forward group than us, namely the Ducks, Stars, and divealanche.

I don't expect our 2nd line to score all the time, but consistency will be needed, because come playoff time, there's no chance to rebound from a long slump.

What makes them so much better? We have 11 more goals than the Stars, 28 more goals than the Avs, and 42 more goals than the Ducks.

Also our defense hasn't been too bad either. We have allowed 20 less goals than the Stars, allowed 27 less goals than the Avs, and allowed 11 less goals than the Ducks.

That creates a differential of 31 goals compared to the Stars, a whopping 55 goals compared to the Avs, and 53 goals compared to the Ducks.

Finally, the Wings have 1 guy with more than 30 goals and 5 with 20 or more. The Stars have none with 30 and 4 with 20, the Avs have none with 30 and 3 with 20, and the Ducks have none with 30 and 3 with 20.

[digitaljohn88 4]

What makes them so much better? We have 11 more goals than the Stars, 28 more goals than the Avs, and 42 more goals than the Ducks.

Also our defense hasn't been too bad either. We have allowed 20 less goals than the Stars, allowed 27 less goals than the Avs, and allowed 11 less goals than the Ducks.

That creates a differential of 31 goals compared to the Stars, a whopping 55 goals compared to the Avs, and 53 goals compared to the Ducks.

Finally, the Wings have 1 guy with more than 30 goals and 5 with 20 or more. The Stars have none with 30 and 4 with 20, the Avs have none with 30 and 3 with 20, and the Ducks have none with 30 and 3 with 20.

The wings sit in 22nd place in goals-for since the break. We may have created a massive differential in the first half, but the last half hasnt been quite so dominant:

Goals For/Against Since the AS Break: (Not all teams shown obviously)

Dallas- 63/47

Colorado- 62/56

Detroit- 55/54

Anaheim- 51/37

Hopefully we can blame all that on February. Anaheim is killing the league since the AS break in goals against...

Also interesting, the Wings are 29th in shot % with 7.2%, while the leaders are all around 12%. Damn you Samuelsson

[Icer 0]

I don't think anyone expected the second line guys to carry this team and they haven't. Any points by them is a bonus. Franzen's 20 are a gift.

Detroit's strength is defense plain and simple. Any other teams in this league have 3 defensemen with more than 30 points? How about 4 players in the top 10 in +/-? They should also win the Jennings barring a major meltdown the last 9 games. Hasek and Osgood are good but not that good.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

What makes them so much better? We have 11 more goals than the Stars, 28 more goals than the Avs, and 42 more goals than the Ducks.

Also our defense hasn't been too bad either. We have allowed 20 less goals than the Stars, allowed 27 less goals than the Avs, and allowed 11 less goals than the Ducks.

That creates a differential of 31 goals compared to the Stars, a whopping 55 goals compared to the Avs, and 53 goals compared to the Ducks.

Finally, the Wings have 1 guy with more than 30 goals and 5 with 20 or more. The Stars have none with 30 and 4 with 20, the Avs have none with 30 and 3 with 20, and the Ducks have none with 30 and 3 with 20.

Those are old stats. All 3 of those teams have added something to their top 6 forwards. The divelalanche have added Floppa, the Ducks have added Selanne, and the Stars have added Richards. That's a lot more scoring right there for you. So none of those stats you just wrote up mean squat.

[55fan 5,133]

To be entirely honest, I have underestimated Franzen terribly.

Johan, I'm sorry. Keep up the good work.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Those are old stats. All 3 of those teams have added something to their top 6 forwards. The divelalanche have added Floppa, the Ducks have added Selanne, and the Stars have added Richards. That's a lot more scoring right there for you. So none of those stats you just wrote up mean squat.

Yeah none of it matters???? Maybe we should cut the season down to 15 games since the rest of the season don't matter. Furthermore, those are not old stats tons of Franzen's goals and several of Flip's are recent. Forsberg has been hurt again and who knows if he will even play. Selanne has done well and has 8 goals but he was someone that they had last year so it doesn't really change their scenario. Richard's is one of the three 20 goal guys that I listed in my stats so your argument that they have added him doesn't mean squat without him they had two 20 goal scorers now they have 3 (furthermore, and there has been talk that he probably won't score as much in Dallas as he did in Tampa Bay). Plus, none of the guys that you listed (except maybe Forsburg now) are secondary scorers they we brought in (or brought back) to be one of their primary scorers. Quit screaming about the sky falling - we have a good team - almost everyone agrees that we have one of the best and as was the point of my previous posts (the subtlety might have eluded you) whining that we don't have enough secondary scoring is ludicrous because we now have 5 guys with at least 20 goals and another with 19. How many other clubs have that many? WE HAVE MORE SECONDARY SCORING THAN ALMOST ANYONE. There are few (if any - I didn't check them all) that will end up with at least 6 20 goal scorers.

[thedisappearer 291]

Those are old stats. All 3 of those teams have added something to their top 6 forwards. The divelalanche have added Floppa, the Ducks have added Selanne, and the Stars have added Richards. That's a lot more scoring right there for you. So none of those stats you just wrote up mean squat.

If none of those "old" stats mean anything, then either does past inconsistency by our second line scoring.

Also... The Avs have "added" Foppa??? I mean, they signed him and all... but added him? I'll wait until he does anything to be concerned.

[Frozen-Man 144]

If none of those "old" stats mean anything, then either does past inconsistency by our second line scoring.

Also... The Avs have "added" Foppa??? I mean, they signed him and all... but added him? I'll wait until he does anything to be concerned.

Great point. His arguement is that the "old" stats don't matter even though they show our scoring and yet they show that they are inconsistent.

Also, great point about Forsburg. He has really been tearing up the scoring sheet lately I think he has 0 goals!!!!!

[YoungGuns1340 1]

You guys are forgetting that our 2nd line scoring has been horribly inconsistent all year. Franzen has been non-existent this year until the last few weeks.

Likewise, Flip has been on and off this year with his scoring. He started the season cold as an iceberg, and had one stretch when Hank was hurt, where he lit things up offensively. Ever since then, he's come down to earth somewhat.

Hudler had a stretch where he scored in several consecutive games, but he's dead in the water right now.

The only thing that has remained constant is that each time any of these 3 players play well for a period of a week or two, people here start overreacting and making those guys out to be better than what they are. One more week of this, and people here will project Franzen as a future 40 goal scorer like they did before the season started.

Our 2nd line has also been a mixture of 8 forwards all season. Its no surprise that since Babcock has more or less gone with 2 cemented lines of late, were getting production from everyone. Confidence in all players has come and gone because Babcock cant decide whos gonna get Top 6 minutes, and whos gonna be squandering their talent on the bottom lines. That messes with your confidence, and your line chemistry. If he stops f*cking around with the lines, our top 6 will go places.

Flip - Datsyuk - Homer

Cleary - Hank - Franzen

Datsyuk and Hank are both centering decent talents, and both Franzen and Flip get confidence by being given an All Star center to play with. Chemistry, Consistency of linemates, Confidence. Thats whats gonna get us places in the spring.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Well, that's a good reason to not care about the issue.

I'm just worried that come playoff time these 2nd liners will go cold like we've seen them do at times this year. Also, I don't care what other teams in the West have done statistically. There's only one team that comes out of the West, and I think the team that has 2nd line scoring will have an edge on other teams.

Oh and if it makes you feel any better, I think the Ducks, Stars, and the divealanche have better 2nd line scoring than us the way their current roster looks.

Thats funny because, if I remember correctly, Cleary, Filppula, and Franzen all played their best hockey of the season in the playoffs last year.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

The wings sit in 22nd place in goals-for since the break. We may have created a massive differential in the first half, but the last half hasnt been quite so dominant:

Goals For/Against Since the AS Break: (Not all teams shown obviously)

Dallas- 63/47

Colorado- 62/56

Detroit- 55/54

Anaheim- 51/37

Hopefully we can blame all that on February. Anaheim is killing the league since the AS break in goals against...

Also interesting, the Wings are 29th in shot % with 7.2%, while the leaders are all around 12%. Damn you Samuelsson

I always hate it when people choose some arbitrary date and decide that thats a great indication of a team/player over an entire season. I saw the other day that Johnathan Cheechoo has the most goals since January 15th. Why am I bringing this up? Because you can choose any arbitrary date throughout the year and use it to show that your team or your favorite player has been better than everyone else. Tell me, who in their right mind is going to say Johnathan Cheechoo must be a better goal scorer than Alexander Ovechkin because he has more goals than Ovy since some stupid date in January.

How bout you try factoring in injuries and scheduling to that bulls*** time period and see how it goes. Lets define Colorado only by the part of the season when Theo was playing well. Lets define Anaheim over the part of the season where they were more or less 100% healthy. Lets define Detroit by the part of the season where they had the worst rash of injuries.

Fact of the matter is, with the personnel that the Wings have, theyve put up better numbers than anyone in the league. Stats change all over the place throughout the year. Rosters change little.

[Thunderpriest 8]

Actually, I did picture Franzen as a 15-20 goal scorer.

I also envision Cleary, Hudler & Filpulla as being 20 goals scorers, and I actually think Flip has the ability to hit 30. A lot of it depends on lines & chemistry, and much of that was thrown out of whack by injuries.

Hudler is cold, but he thrived when played with Zetterberg & Cleary.

Filpulla's skating and playing style reminds me of Z's, and he has complimented Pavel nicely.

Someone lamented the fact that Franzen was slted as the 3rd line center when everyone is healthy, but I see that as a plus. (I'd actually have him center the fourth line.)

I think that our scoring will jump again once we have everybody back in the lineup.

[WhiteLightning91 105]

Someone lamented the fact that Franzen was slted as the 3rd line center when everyone is healthy, but I see that as a plus. (I'd actually have him center the fourth line.)

Correct.

When the playoffs roll around and the Detroit Red Wings get all of their injured forwards back, coach Mike Babcock envisions Johan Franzen as his third-line center.

He's a big, strong player who can match up physically against some of the Western Conference's good-sized centers, like San Jose's Joe Thornton and Anaheim's Ryan Getzlaf.

MLive

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

If none of those "old" stats mean anything, then either does past inconsistency by our second line scoring.

Also... The Avs have "added" Foppa??? I mean, they signed him and all... but added him? I'll wait until he does anything to be concerned.

You're wrong because you're comparing proven playoffs scorers to guys that had one decent playoff season a year ago. That's blatant homerism.

Excuse me if I think Floppa, Richards, and Selanne are all better forwards than Franzen, Flip, and Hudler.

[TRD604 8]

I totally did not expect Franzen to put up 20 goals. Maybe i should add him to my hockey pool..hehe

[Albeh 1]

I never thought at the start of the year that Franzen would have a 20 (probably plus) goal scoring season this year. I have been really impressed with the way that he has been coming on lately. It seems to me that there may be some good effects of all the February injuries as several of our guys have finally contributing.

I figured he would be without question. He's big, got a good shot. His biggest problems have been playing time and confidence. He's going to be an important wing for a long time.

[digitaljohn88 4]

I always hate it when people choose some arbitrary date and decide that thats a great indication of a team/player over an entire season. I saw the other day that Johnathan Cheechoo has the most goals since January 15th. Why am I bringing this up? Because you can choose any arbitrary date throughout the year and use it to show that your team or your favorite player has been better than everyone else. Tell me, who in their right mind is going to say Johnathan Cheechoo must be a better goal scorer than Alexander Ovechkin because he has more goals than Ovy since some stupid date in January.

How bout you try factoring in injuries and scheduling to that bulls*** time period and see how it goes. Lets define Colorado only by the part of the season when Theo was playing well. Lets define Anaheim over the part of the season where they were more or less 100% healthy. Lets define Detroit by the part of the season where they had the worst rash of injuries.

Fact of the matter is, with the personnel that the Wings have, theyve put up better numbers than anyone in the league. Stats change all over the place throughout the year. Rosters change little.

Geez i was just showing stats since the break, not really an arbitrary date. After the break is when teams gear up, make trades, and prepare for the playoffs. People regularly compare stats after the break because sometimes it gives a more accurate representation of which teams or players are hot now, you know, when it matters.

Nobody is saying Cheech is a better goal scorer than AO, but it would be a reasonable assumption that he will perform well down the stretch and into the playoffs, because he scored the most in the last half of the season.

To put this in a Wings persepective for you, look at Hasek. His overall SV% is a POINT EIGHT ******* NINE NINE. .899%. 38th in the league. Should Babcock send him down to GR because of his performance over the entire season, or would it be better to estimate his performance over the last half of the season, you know since an arbitrary date like, let's say January 15th, when deciding on his play time?

This is why people use stats from the after all-star break. Because nobody really ******* cares what happened in October when trying to gauge their team for the playoffs.

(However, I don't like Hasek and I wouldn't mind seeing him in GR )

Edited March 18, 2008 by digitaljohn88

[thedisappearer 291]

You're wrong because you're comparing proven playoffs scorers to guys that had one decent playoff season a year ago. That's blatant homerism.

Excuse me if I think Floppa, Richards, and Selanne are all better forwards than Franzen, Flip, and Hudler.

I'm wrong, you're right. Got it. But let's play this charade a little longer...

Floppa (a few years ago), Richards, and Selanne ARE better than Franzen, Flip, and Hudler. But they are first liners, not second. Apples and oranges. (You were talking about second line scoring inconsistency, right? Or were you just running your mouth, calling peopelewho disagree a "homer" and pretending to know every damn thing about the sport?)

Floppa ain't done jack yet, and I'm not sure he will this year. Psst- he has a history of injuries. And Selanne was with the Ducks last year so he's not "new". Psst- Lils had a turn-over most people here can't forget. So the Avs and Ducks haven't "improved".

Ok, Richards makes the Stars better. So? One player makes the Wings future dim?

You talk about SECOND LINE SCORING and compare our second line to TWO HALL OF FAMERS and a dude who could make it as well. First liners, dude, first liners.

Also, Franzen, Flip, and Hud's playoff stats are "old" and therefore not relevant... right????

Nevermind... I'm wrong.