NHL's disappointing players

[up2here 41]

BTW....what the does age have to do with anything here? Both have spent 3 season in the NHL.

1 year older is one year closer to physical maturity,it wont be a huge difference but noticeable. By the way,no one has mentioned Brian Lawton. He was picked first overall ahead of Yzerman,Lafontaine and Barrasso.

Edited March 24, 2008 by UP2HERE

[DenJ91 0]

1 year older is one year closer to physical maturity,it wont be a huge difference but noticeable. By the way,no one has mentioned Brian Lawton. He was picked first overall ahead of Yzerman,Lafontaine and Barrasso.

yup, if your going that route, how about claude boivin for the flyers, picked ahead of selanne and i'm sure other great players that year. boivin was their first pick i think

edit: ok i was wrong selanne was picked just a couple spots before boivin, however boivin was picked by the flyers 12th overall ahead of players like recchi, mogilny, rob blake and tony amonte to name a few. boivin scored just 12 goals in his nhl career! haha

Edited March 24, 2008 by DenJ91

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

Crosby is still the best player in the game today. BAR NONE. NOT LIDSTROM NOT LUONGO NOT OVECHKIN

No disrespect...but you're Flat out WRONG. He's not even #2.

[awingsincebirth 0]

BTW....what the does age have to do with anything here? Both have spent 3 season in the NHL.

There is a physical peak that players can reach at a certain point in their LIVES (not their CAREERS). Theoretically, at that peak, you should play the best hockey of your career. Ovechkin is closer to that peak, closer to physical maturity, and is thus at an advantage.

Gretzky's peak season was in 85-86 when he scored 215. I realize that he had outstanding numbers before that as well, and that there are other factors that make a great player than just points, but it is no coincidence that he reached this peak when he was 24-25, and not when he was 20-21.

[DenJ91 0]

No disrespect...but you're Flat out WRONG. He's not even #2.

wow, saying that crosby isn't top 2 best players is like asking to be called an idiot.

[Opie 308]

I would say this year AO and Crosby have been the best offensive players in the game, followed closely by Malkin.

[zombiewing 3]

Anyone remember Link Gaetz?

He was supposed to be another next Probert. Then, he got smoked by both Bruise Brothers. Joey especially cleaned his clock.

He also had some off ice issues. He ended up playing semi-pro roller hockey. really. A poetic failure.

His low point came in 1993, when he was arrested for breaking into his old roommate's apartment, stealing his television, and urinating on his bed.

great picture of the missing link himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Gaetz

Edited March 24, 2008 by zombiewing

[awingsincebirth 0]

Anyone remember Link Gaetz?

He was supposed to be another next Probert. Then, he got smoked by both Bruise Brothers. Joey especially cleaned his clock.

He also had some off ice issues. He ended up playing semi-pro roller hockey. really. A poetic failure.

His low point came in 1993, when he was arrested for breaking into his old roommate's apartment, stealing his television, and urinating on his bed.

great picture of the missing link himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Gaetz

If this thread were a competition, this guy would win it HANDS DOWN! Although, come on, poetic failure??? The guy's playing semi-pro roller hockey man! He's livin' the dream!

[DenJ91 0]

If this thread were a competition, this guy would win it HANDS DOWN! Although, come on, poetic failure??? The guy's playing semi-pro roller hockey man! He's livin' the dream!

i've played semi-pro roller hockey, it's not the dream. haha

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I said see above, not below. Crosby and and Vinny have nothing to do with each other in this case. Here is the post I was referring to:

"With Crosby, he was hyped as the best player ever. He has produced, but I think Ovechkin has been more impressive. Crosby has had a very solid supporting cast, yet can't get his team out of the first round of the playoffs. To me, what Ovechkin has done with the cast he has been given, is much more impressive.

Take Ovechkin away from the Caps, and you have a team that is in the lottery for Stamkos. Take Crosby away from the Pens, and they don't really miss a step."

I don't care what type of production people expect out of a player. I know that productions is directly effected by the surrounding cast you have.

What is disappointing about Crosby to me is that he has failed to make any real impact in the playoffs. Again, without Crosby the Pens are still in the playoffs. So technically speaking, the only real gain that the Pens get from having Crosby is financial. He was hyped as the best player since Gretzky. Yes, he is young, but he hasn't really done anything all that impressive. He has a good enough supporting cast to make noise in the playoffs. And he hasn't done that. That is why I am disappointed in Crosby.

I'm not saying he needs to win a Cup. But I am saying he needs to at least get the Pens out of the first round.

How many playoffs has Sidney Crosby been in?

Don't hurt yourself looking, the answer is 1.

Take a look at the Pens kids, Whitney, Fleury, Staal, Malkin, Crosby, exactly how much playoff experience did they combined?

NONE OF THEM EVER PLAYED IN THE PLAYOFFS BEFORE AND THEY LOST TO THE EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMP OTTAWA SENATORS.

What was he supposed to do win the Stanley Cup his first year in the playoffs? Steve Yzerman and quite a few Wings players didn't win Cups their first time in the playoffs. Most first time playoff teams don't do very well in case you didn't know that.

Sorry for yelling but I have to be emphatic on this. So in your eyes he is a dissapointment because in his first playoff year, surrounded by players in key positions (including Goalie) playing in their first every playoffs and losing in the first round to the EC champs means he's a dissapointment?

Maybe you should look at it in these terms:

His rookie year the Pens only won 22 games

His second year the Pens won 47 games and made the playoffs, that's one hell of an improvement. Of course Malkin's arrival helped but regardless, Sid still won the Hart, Ross and Pearson at 20 years of age.

If you think he's a dissapointment at least provide some evidence that would help your position and not hinder it.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

because your basically saying that because the guy didn't win the cup in his first playoff season, he's not lived up to his hype. it's ridiculous! i don't care if you come back with saying he just needed to get to the 2nd round, it's just as ridiculous. you can't base anything on one year in the playoffs. he did his part, it's not his fault the pens didn't make it to the 2nd round last season. give the guy 5 years in the playoffs before you say something like this. i mean seriously, i can't believe you're actually saying these things

DenJ91, you and I are on the same page on a freakish level today.

I'm trying not to flame here but imisssergie is coming off as the biggest fuggin' moron i've seen in awhile.

Seriously, expecting Crosby to do something brilliant in his first ever playoffs, surrounded by young players with ZERO playoff experience and losing to Ottawa who went to the Finals and calling Sid a dissapointment on those grounds is beyond ridiculous. It's just stupid.

I mean, why not ask him to turn water into wine?

imissergei's problem is he has formulated his opinion without any real thought being put into it. Which is ignorant IMO.

For instance, he probably has no clue how many seasons it took Steve Yzerman to advance the Wings in the playoffs or to advance deep and eventually win a cup.

And you could swap Stevie's name out with a horde of other unbelievable players over the past 20 years.

But this guy wants to dub him a dissapointment without taking into account anything we've pointed out.

It's him being too lazy to dig into the details to form a rational opinion and being too stubborn to backtrack on his words now. Idiocy and pride is all this is about now and frankly, you can't talk to people like that.

So i'm giving up on him.

Edited March 24, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Anyone remember Link Gaetz?

He was supposed to be another next Probert. Then, he got smoked by both Bruise Brothers. Joey especially cleaned his clock.

He also had some off ice issues. He ended up playing semi-pro roller hockey. really. A poetic failure.

His low point came in 1993, when he was arrested for breaking into his old roommate's apartment, stealing his television, and urinating on his bed.

great picture of the missing link himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Gaetz

Damn, I forgot to mention Link in my post. He was probably the scariest most dangerous man ever to play hockey anywhere. Some of the stories I've read about Link are just unreal.

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

wow, saying that crosby isn't top 2 best players is like asking to be called an idiot.

Again, no disrespect intended (even though your reply comment held some venom).

Lids and AO are two, right off the top of my head that are better players.

Not saying Sid isn't a great player...just not in the top two.

wow..how bout them apples (sorry to ruin your media-hype-Penguins-homer fantasy). Enjoy the rage that comes when your wrong and realize it.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Learn2LuvIt

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Again, no disrespect intended (even though your reply comment held some venom).

Lids and AO are two, right off the top of my head that are better players.

Not saying Sid isn't a great player...just not in the top two.

wow..how bout them apples (sorry to ruin your media-hype-Penguins-homer fantasy). Enjoy the rage that comes when your wrong and realize it.

Just curious, if Crosby had not been injured there's a chance he could be leading the league in scoring or be in the top 3.

Hypothetically, if that were the case, would he still be ranked 3rd behind AO and Nick even though at age 20 he already got the Pens into the playoffs, has a Hart, a Pearson and an Art Ross.

Would he still be only 3rd?

[Opie 308]

That lids comment was a little homer-ish, he is the most valuable wing (IMO) but to say he is top 2 in the league players wise is a little bit of a stretch.

As D-men go he is the best in the league hands down, as far as overall players go, not so sure. IF he was lighting the lamp at a torrid pace as well as getting the assists he gets, the +/-, toi maybe. But he only has 8 goals, 8 goals is plenty for my expectations of him BTW, but the last D-man to win the Hart award was???? and what were his offensive numbers.

Pronger 14g 48a 62 pts 52 +/- 92 pim. Edit: Damn not finishing thoughts: I don't think Pronger deserved it his year.

And yes I understand that as far as D-men go he is great, awesome, phenomenal, whatever adj you want, but if you are talking best overall players in the game I would have to say 4. Thornton, 3. Malkin, 2. Crosby, 1. AO are better than him. I would put him in the top 10 maybe he takes the 5 spot, but I would be hard pressed to say he is a top 3 player in the league.

But this is like comparing Dats and Hossa as in who is better, they provide a lot of different aspects to their play, I prefer Dats over Hossa, but I can see how some one would go the other way. Maybe you like the pure goal scoring Hossa brings, maybe you like the puck handling skill dats has.

Picking the top 2 players in the league you may pick Lids because you think D is the most important aspect of the game. However without you clarifying that I have to believe you are going on play alone. In that case in my mind Lids would be top 5 at best but not top 3.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Opie

[zombiewing 3]

Damn, I forgot to mention Link in my post. He was probably the scariest most dangerous man ever to play hockey anywhere. Some of the stories I've read about Link are just unreal.

yeah man, he was a real nut case. makes simon look lady bing worthy.

he through a skate...at his coach.

he even got kicked out of a mexican hockey league. i mean...how does one do that?

Edited March 24, 2008 by zombiewing

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

yeah man, he was a real nut case. makes simon look lady bing worthy.

he through a skate...at his coach.

he even got kicked out of a mexican hockey league. i mean...how does one do that?

I'd love to have a guy like that the next time we face the Ducks.

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

Just curious, if Crosby had not been injured there's a chance he could be leading the league in scoring or be in the top 3.

Hypothetically, if that were the case, would he still be ranked 3rd behind AO and Nick even though at age 20 he already got the Pens into the playoffs, has a Hart, a Pearson and an Art Ross.

Would he still be only 3rd?

Good post/question.

If this were hypothetically the case....IMO I'd say no. Lids and AO are better players all things being equal (all players 100% healthy, playing on exact equal teams). I ask myself who I'd get rid of (if absolutley forced to) if these three came down to playing on my favorite team (Wings baby). I always end the debate with Sid. There's just something about AO and his play that sets him above all the rest....he's freakin unbelivable and refuses to be stopped. If I had to build a proto-type hockey player...he'd most likely resemble AO-including his mean-streak.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Learn2LuvIt

[Opie 308]

Saying there is just something about some one takes this from objective to subjective. You are now placing your criteria on the debate, once you do that you can't be wrong, neither can I nor anyone else if we are sticking to what we feel or our preferences.

If it were me I would keep Crosby over AO because to me he has more to offer my team, yes AO can absolutely fill the net and that is needed,

But:

AO scores a lot of goals off of one timers.

Crosby sets up a lot of one timers.

Lids stops a lot of one timers.

AO Dazzles in the open ice.

Crosby Dazzles in the open ice.

Lids steals the puck away from guys who think they are in open ice.

But at least you used IMO, and didn't state it like a fact !

But again I think building a team around some one is different than best player in the league. I would build my team around Lids, no doubt, defense wins championships in my book, but I would still have him at best #5 looking in on 4 other players.

The best part about his discussion, debate, argument is that 3 of the players I mentioned and others have been floating around are all under 25!!!!!!! Good for the game, then you have guys like Toews, Kane, coming a long that look like great players. The youth of this league looks promising!!

[DenJ91 0]

Again, no disrespect intended (even though your reply comment held some venom).

Lids and AO are two, right off the top of my head that are better players.

Not saying Sid isn't a great player...just not in the top two.

wow..how bout them apples (sorry to ruin your media-hype-Penguins-homer fantasy). Enjoy the rage that comes when your wrong and realize it.

haha, first i never said you WERE an idiot, i said "it's like asking to be called an idiot". i think you'll be basically alone on the entire forum to say crosby is not top 2. to say lidstrom is better is being a blatent homer. and since when is philly home for pittsburgh?? you realize they are 6 1/2 hours apart right? at least i think that's what you trying to say when you called me a penguins-homer. anywho, i'm a red wings fan first and foremost, and i love lidstrom, but he is not top 2, questionably top 4 to me. it's hard to debate because it's a who is better overall topic and if i really took the time to break down each of the top 5 players in my mind i'd have a better result for you.

oh and i'm not wrong, i'm never wrong. how long is it gonna take for people around here to realize that. haha nah i'm kidding!! i've actually admitted to having my opinions swayed here and there.

and gordiesid&ted, we are def on the same page today!! where were you in the ovechkin thread when i needed ya!! lol

Edited March 24, 2008 by DenJ91

[Winther 6]

You MUST be a member of the Canadian media.

I agree that a goalie can't be the best player. They don't do enough to consider them a complete player.

When asked who is the hardest player to play against, Crosby said Lidstrom. Would Lidstrom say Crosby? I think he would probably name a goalie.

Lidstrom is the best player of the entire game of hockey (within the rules) in the world. Being a defenseman, he will never win the Richard, he will never lead the league in assists. But, he will probably win the +/- this year, he will be the highest scoring Dman this year and he is ALWAYS up against the BEST players on the other team. He is a great passer, has a great shot, great control of the stick. And he is no doubt the best player at his position. He is PROVEN reliable and he is consistent in all aspects. There are no slumps. He is better as a player.

As for AO being better than Crosby, time will determine that. But this year AO is the MVP of the league.

Just FYI;

Lidström actually thinks Crosby is the best player in the NHL, ive just read an article about it in aftonbladet (i know, not to reliable, but this was an interview ). Can't get you any link though, have to have some special access to read it ^^. They had a big poll with all the swedes in the NHL, Crosby got like 40% of the votes, Lidström 15%. Its really interesting to see what the players themselves thinks..

[SweWings 45]

Pretty cool topic although the Crosby-discussion is ruining it a tad.I'm reluctant to bring my own opinion into it but Crosby can't really be compared with guys like Daigle or Brendl (although Brendl is having a half-decent thing going for him in Sweden). Although I hate Crosby - can't tell you why though, I'd love to say it's because he's a Penguin or Canadian or is this or that. I can't explain it - something about him rubs me the wrong way. But I'd never call him a bust. And now I've gone and done and made things worse. I should just shut up about Crosby. Please ignore the crossed over text.

[DenJ91 0]

Pretty cool topic although the Crosby-discussion is ruining it a tad.I'm reluctant to bring my own opinion into it but Crosby can't really be compared with guys like Daigle or Brendl (although Brendl is having a half-decent thing going for him in Sweden). Although I hate Crosby - can't tell you why though, I'd love to say it's because he's a Penguin or Canadian or is this or that. I can't explain it - something about him rubs me the wrong way. But I'd never call him a bust. And now I've gone and done and made things worse. I should just shut up about Crosby. Please ignore the crossed over text.

haha funny how you crossbed most of it out focusing on the crosby part. i agree, when with ya. when i created the topic, i never in a million years would have thought someone would post crosby as a disappointment. it's insane. so hopefully it gets back to regular players who make sense. glad you liked the idea of the topic though.

pavel brendl is def one!! dude scored mad amounts of goals before being drafted.

[Cern 0]

I'm more inclined to dislike Crosby because he's the poster child for everything that sucks about the 'new' NHL

[Opie 308]

Sorry am I the only person who likes crosby, and hopes he becomes the next MJ. It can only help the game, and the kid, yes kid, is great I don't give a care if he is the next Gretzky or not.

Do any of you that are his detractors think that being labeled the next great one adds pressure to him where as AO doesn't have to deal with that, Crosby is the poster child for the league, AO is not.

AO can be a young adult and have fun on and off the ice, Crosby has the game on his shoulders.

Not saying he does or doesn't desserve it, just that it is pressure on a young kid. I saw him play in the QMJHL and he is talented and plays hard. People who call him a whiner, who haven't you seen whine when a penalty is called, guys who get fighting majors because they know they can't argue it. Almost every other penalty every player skates to the box and whines about it.