Respect for the Red Wings and their fans

[egroen 384]

Sakic and Yzerman had a hard time winning trophies because they played with other great players, and also, they had to compete against Gretzky and Lemiux for those scoring trophies.

Yzerman and Sakic would have ONE scoring title between them if Lemieux and Gretzky never existed (Yzerman in 1989).

[redwingrob 0]

I have to go with Sakic over Hasek. When Joe was shown on the board congratulating Stevie Y on Stevie's jersey retirement night the place went nuts. And for us to respect an Av really says something. I think comparing trophies is flawed for the reasons already mentioned. I think they were both great at their position, but what swings it fo me is the way they conducted themselves. While the new Hasek is way more mature and a good team player, he hasn't always been. He was the reason Buffalo won any of their games for a lot of years, but he was not the voice or face of the franchise because of his demeanor. Dont get me wrong most of the great goalies have been loony tunes, but still Sakic has always been a consumate professional, great leader and great team guy. I am sad everyday that he brought all this to the avs. Frankly I still refer to him as a Nordique.

[Uncle Danny 155]

Sakic and Yzerman had a hard time winning trophies because they played with other great players, and also, they had to compete against Gretzky and Lemiux for those scoring trophies.

Not to pick nits, but Hasek was in his prime playing against the likes of Roy and Brodeur.

Hasek was the only star on his team, thus anything he did was more magnified as far as importance goes.

Very true.

No disrespect to Joe, but if I had to pick one to build a team around in their prime, I'd go with Hasek. Either would be a fine pick, but there are so many more options at center than there are at goalie.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Uncle Danny

[egroen 384]

I have to go with Sakic over Hasek.

That is fine... but anyone not factoring in how "great of a guy" Sakic is, will readily admit Hasek will go down in history as a much better hockey player.

I know it is tough to admit when you really like a player. I am just recently having to accept Sakic will end up in history as better than Yzerman (though not by much)... and that really hurts me to admit!

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Yzerman and Sakic would have ONE scoring title between them if Lemieux and Gretzky never existed (Yzerman in 1989).

Yeah, but the fact that they played with other great players still holds true, because the scoring tended to be more balanced. Gretzky and Lemieux were just too damn good, no matter who they played with. Hasek, on the other hand, played with a team that didn't score many goals, and who had no other superstars of any kind, or even all-star caliber players towards his later years in Buffalo.

Of course he was going to win all the MVP awards and Vezina trophies because of that image of carrying a team all by himself. I'm not saying he isn't great, but it's too much to say that he was better than two great players who didn't even play the same position as him, just because of his hardware.

Also, he won more Vezinas than Roy, so would you say that Hasek is better than Roy was just because of individual awards?

[bestkeeper_14 0]

That is fine... but anyone not factoring in how "great of a guy" Sakic is, will readily admit Hasek will go down in history as a much better hockey player.

I know it is tough to admit when you really like a player. I am just recently having to accept Sakic will end up in history as better than Yzerman (though not by much)... and that really hurts me to admit!

Well however this plays out, I was just wondering if I could think that guy was complete idiot... but yea these are great arguments for both... but i can honestly say I respected Stevie Y as one of the best...

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Not to pick nits, but Hasek was in his prime playing against the likes of Roy and Brodeur.

Very true.

No disrespect to Joe, but if I had to pick one to build a team around in their prime, I'd go with Hasek. Either would be a fine pick, but there are so many more options at center than there are at goalie.

But him competing against Roy and Brodeur has to be overshadowed by the fact that those guys had other stars on their teams, and he didn't. That weighs heavily in the voters minds as far as who was more valuable to their team.

[jbrwing21 0]

Welcome!

[Third Man In 2,091]

Welcome to the boards, bestkeeper! Here's to a series of great hockey, honest discussion, and no personal attacks aimed at posters--going either way. Players and coaches, as always, are fair game.

But I don't think anyone here really thinks Ryan Smyth sucks, at least in the way you mean it. He sucks in the way that Avs fans think the Wings suck, and in the way that the Avs (and yes, Ryan Smyth) do indeed suck. It is a versatile word.

Go Wings!

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

That is fine... but anyone not factoring in how "great of a guy" Sakic is, will readily admit Hasek will go down in history as a much better hockey player.

I know it is tough to admit when you really like a player. I am just recently having to accept Sakic will end up in history as better than Yzerman (though not by much)... and that really hurts me to admit!

Why would Sakic be better than Yzerman? Sakic never scored 60 goals, and never scored over 150 points in a season. Yzerman at his prime was better offensively than Sakic at his prime, and will go down as a better captain, and a more popular player in league history, which believe it or not, does make a difference in people's minds as far as all-time ranking.

Sakic has been great in recent years, but that has to do with him mostly staying healthy (until this year) thus he didn't have the lingering injury problems that Yzerman had.

The most impressive thing Sakic has ever done is his OT goals in the playoffs, but Howe, Lemieux, and Messier never had one OT playoff goal, and I don't think anyone will rank Sakic ahead of those guys.

I have Sakic in my top 20, but Yzerman would just barely make it in my top 10. I don't see how anyone who isn't a divealanche fan can say otherwise.

[awingsincebirth 0]

Welcome to the boards, bestkeeper! Here's to a series of great hockey, honest discussion, and no personal attacks aimed at posters--going either way. Players and coaches, as always, are fair game.

But I don't think anyone here really thinks Ryan Smyth sucks, at least in the way you mean it. He sucks in the way that Avs fans think the Wings suck, and in the way that the Avs (and yes, Ryan Smyth) do indeed suck. It is a versatile word.

Go Wings!

I also think that part of the "Smyth sucks" mentality comes from his role on the Aves in comparison to his role on the Oilers. The way that he played, working his ass of and giving his heart and soul to the organization, created a sort of aura around him given the team that he played for which was, at the time, not dominated by huge names and was in a huge Canadian market, nearby where he had grown up and developed his skills.

In reality, his stlyle hasn't changed (I'm sure, although I haven't seen him play to much either in his short stint with the Isles or with the Aves), hard working heart and sould guys don't tend to lose their defining characteristics, his team and his role have. He isn't a number 1 guy in Colorado, he's not the face of the franchise, and he plays in a market where he has considerably less exposure than he did in Edmonton.

All in all, whether or not he plays the exact same game that he did in Edmonton, it just feels like a large part of his influence on the game was dependent on the team for which he played. He's the kind of player that I can see returning to Edmonton one more time before its all said and done, its where he belongs.

(The reason I'm opinionated on this is because I've heard several of my non-Wing buddies exclaim that Smyth sucks and that he's lost his game since he got traded. I'm a big Smyth fan because of the way that he plays, and hell, he's Captain Canada. It's too bad the Wings are gonna beat the s*** out of him in the next few weeks! )

GO WINGS!

SMYTH SUUUUCKS!

[egroen 384]

Of course he was going to win all the MVP awards and Vezina trophies because of that image of carrying a team all by himself. I'm not saying he isn't great, but it's too much to say that he was better than two great players who didn't even play the same position as him, just because of his hardware.

I'm sorry, but any way you swing it, Hasek is a much better hockey player than Sakic and Yzerman. Even ignoring all the hardware, Hasek lead the league in GAA and SV% way more than Sakic or Yzerman ever lead the league (which is never, and only once if you eliminate Lemieux and Gretzky). He was competing against Roy, Brodeur and a Belfour, who in his prime was one of the best ever, as well.

Winning a Vezina does not have much to do with whether your team is good or not (like a Jennings trophy would)... it has more to do with pure goaltending. Yet, Hasek won both those awards, the fact he was on a crappy team for many of them makes it all the more impressive, not less.

If you assume Hasek won the Hart and Pearson both years because he was merely the "best player on a crappy team" you have another thing coming. Hasek had some of the greatest seasons ever, for any goaltender or hockey player ever, those years. He was the best player in the world those years.

Also, he won more Vezinas than Roy, so would you say that Hasek is better than Roy was just because of individual awards?

Hasek is not better than Roy just because of individual awards. There are more reasons than that

I was just wondering if I could think that guy was complete idiot...

He's not an idiot, in fact he is dead-on correct. Though it does sound like he is obnoxious.

Edited April 24, 2008 by egroen

[Mooker 0]

I've always thought of Sakic as the poor man's Yzerman. Class act all the way. ...except when we're playing against him, of course. Then he's just a speed-bump that's in our way.

[egroen 384]

Why would Sakic be better than Yzerman? Sakic never scored 60 goals, and never scored over 150 points in a season. Yzerman at his prime was better offensively than Sakic at his prime, and will go down as a better captain, and a more popular player in league history, which believe it or not, does make a difference in people's minds as far as all-time ranking.

Remember, Yzerman played much of his prime in the high-scoring 80s, while Sakic played much of his prime in the dead-puck era. That said, yes -- Yzerman at his prime was better offensively than Sakic (though not by as much as you think just by looking at points without considering eras). Sakic maintained a higher level for longer than Yzerman, however. Yzerman's offensive numbers came down a lot once he learned to play defence, while Sakic has always been very responsible defensively (enough to get second in voting for Selke) and continued to put up big offensive numbers.

Do not be so sure Yzerman will go down as a better captain and more popular player -- Sakic is just as popular and considered an incredible captain as well.

Yzerman has been in the top ten in scoring 10 times -- Sakic 13 times, in less seasons. Sakic's playoff performances have been better as well (184 points in 166 games for Sakic vs 185 points in 196 games for Yzerman), plus Sakic's 34 points alone in '96.

The most impressive thing Sakic has ever done is his OT goals in the playoffs, but Howe, Lemieux, and Messier never had one OT playoff goal, and I don't think anyone will rank Sakic ahead of those guys.

I would not put Sakic anywhere close to them...

I have Sakic in my top 20, but Yzerman would just barely make it in my top 10. I don't see how anyone who isn't a divealanche fan can say otherwise.

... But you would put Yzerman in the top ten??? Is that just for centers? Forwards? Or for all hockey players???

All-time, all-positions I would have them both in the Top 30-40.

[discohadestwo 0]

When did we become so politically correct around here? This is an Avs fan we are talking about people!

I can respect Sharkfan and Duck Guy.....but honestly, I have to reach way down to respect Avs fans, if I can at all.

I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself when I say:

Sorry...I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but by virtue of being an Avs fan, I hate you. Enjoy your stay I guess, but I certainly won't be interacting with you. I won't flame ya or purposely cause disruptions with you during the series, but I certainly don't have to pretend were bosom buddies either.

Going further, I'm a Michigan transplant in Minnesota, and I can say with absolute certainty that hockey fans in Minnesota are 10 times more knowledgeable about the sport than fans in Colorado. You may just think they are uncivil because they hate the Avs and their fans about as much as Red Wings fans.

I can respect this... I just think the rivalry ended when we massacred them 7-0 & left them in the dust.

[#96 16]

The rivalry will never end between Detroit and Colorado. McCarty will be 75 years old and still playing for the Wings and during one game, he will pop Patrick Roy's son in the mouth.

"Tell your dad I said hi."

[discohadestwo 0]

Skill wise, in his prime, Hasek was better than Yzerman...

But as far as being a hockey player... There will never be a better HOCKEY PLAYER than Steve Yzerman.

If you know what I mean, you'll agree. If not, I may sound stupid, but you wouldn't understand.

WTF. How/why am I comparing a goalie to a forward?

[stevie for president 42]

Remember, Yzerman played much of his prime in the high-scoring 80s, while Sakic played much of his prime in the dead-puck era. That said, yes -- Yzerman at his prime was better offensively than Sakic (though not by as much as you think just by looking at points without considering eras). Sakic maintained a higher level for longer than Yzerman, however. Yzerman's offensive numbers came down a lot once he learned to play defence, while Sakic has always been very responsible defensively (enough to get second in voting for Selke) and continued to put up big offensive numbers.

Do not be so sure Yzerman will go down as a better captain and more popular player -- Sakic is just as popular and considered an incredible captain as well.

Yzerman has been in the top ten in scoring 10 times -- Sakic 13 times, in less seasons. Sakic's playoff performances have been better as well (184 points in 166 games for Sakic vs 185 points in 196 games for Yzerman), plus Sakic's 34 points alone in '96.

I would not put Sakic anywhere close to them...

... But you would put Yzerman in the top ten??? Is that just for centers? Forwards? Or for all hockey players???

All-time, all-positions I would have them both in the Top 30-40.

yzerman also won more stanley cups, he played much of his career with nagging injuries, and he has shown much more perseverance and dedication than sakic ever could. yzerman only missed the playoffs twice, sakic did 6 times. sakic only scored 50 goals twice, he never got close to 150 points, he never got 90 assists, going from sakics rookie year until the 1st lockout in 94 yzerman was far and away the better player and he was past his prime. sakic was in his prime. obviously im extremely biased but i just cant see how anyone can win the argument that sakic was better than yzerman.

[egroen 384]

yzerman also won more stanley cups, he played much of his career with nagging injuries, and he has shown much more perseverance and dedication than sakic ever could. yzerman only missed the playoffs twice, sakic did 6 times. sakic only scored 50 goals twice, he never got close to 150 points, he never got 90 assists, going from sakics rookie year until the 1st lockout in 94 yzerman was far and away the better player and he was past his prime. sakic was in his prime. obviously im extremely biased but i just cant see how anyone can win the argument that sakic was better than yzerman.

I think most (outside of Detroit and Colorado) would rate them close, but Sakic would have the slight edge. More PPG in regular season and playoffs, despite Yzerman being in the higher scoring era. If you read around a bit, go to hockey history forums, top 100 lists and the like you will see some very compelling arguments for Sakic. It *is* debateable though, so I am not going to spend too much time on it in a Red Wings forum

Now Hasek vs. Yzerman and Sakic is not debateable. Hasek wins hands down.

[DYags 0]

welcome, and i think you'll get along fine here just as long as you follow these 10 simple guidelines:

1. hasek can suck AND play amazingly all at the same time, it all depends on how the defense was playing.

2. every loss has something vaguely to do with mike babcock, ken holland, and the assassination of archduke francis ferdinand.

3. you understand that pierre mcguire is a royal douchelord. of course you do, let's move on.

4. players that have been on our team and pissed us off in the past (fedorov, et al) we want back ON our team years later. So, using this formula, once cut, lilja will return to the wings in 5-6 years to general fanfare only to haunt us once again.

5. the $#%@ wings lose just to $@%# with me, man! seriously! every $!@% year they pull this ^$#@!

6. red wings fans are paranoid.

7. after a decade of hating the avalanche, and slinging poo at all of their players, past and present, not one negative thing can ever be muttered about joe sakic. how he keeps his angel wings tucked neatly under all of that equipment is beyond us all.

8. bad mouthing steve yzerman is not recommended, just ask the guy next to you. what, there is no guy next to you? now you understand.

9. little known fact: ian laperriere's nose is the single-most visited attraction in pisa, italy.

10. forsberg could have two soggy potatoes for ankles and no spine to speak of and he still scares the *$@# out of every one of us. but screw him, he sucks.

That was brilliant

[DYags 0]

I love your rules and will abide by them, both Sakic and Yzerman are gods of hockey, and therefore i would never talk bad about them!

One question that has come up on our boards which I have argued regulary and it was started by one of the more disrespecting wings fans on our boards, but do you gys think that hasek is a better overall hockey player then Sakic

his quote was "Hasek is the greatest current hockey player that is an automatic bid for the hall"

I said what about sakic really not trying to be a homer, and he said no they aren't even close, hasek wins..

What do some of you smart Wings fans think?

I'd have to say that the Red Wing fan who posted that has to be a complete idiot. Best current, sorry, GREATEST current hockey player of today is hasek eh? I thought to be the greatest you'd have to play.. I could be wrong, but that'd make that kid right. Yeah, I'm right

[bestkeeper_14 0]

I'd have to say that the Red Wing fan who posted that has to be a complete idiot. Best current, sorry, GREATEST current hockey player of today is hasek eh? I thought to be the greatest you'd have to play.. I could be wrong, but that'd make that kid right. Yeah, I'm right

I like where you are coming from!! oh and go Arsenal!!

[DYags 0]

oh and go Arsenal!!

Alright its official, I just made a new friend

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

[quote name='egroen' date='April 24, 2008 - 02:50PM' post='1328794'

... But you would put Yzerman in the top ten??? Is that just for centers? Forwards? Or for all hockey players???

All-time, all-positions I would have them both in the Top 30-40.

Yzerman is in my top 10 all time skaters. I used to include goalies, but that just complicates the list. Sakic would be right outside that list.

[Hockeytown Red Wings 245]

Alright its official, I just made a new friend

Booo Gunners....Hurray Wings!