"That's a reputation call... Sutherland blew it"

[10 Minute Misconduct 104]

agreed. even if that goal counts we only would have scored two, well below average for us in these playoffs. and it's not like we didn't have powerplays. frankly, our power play looked like s*** tonight. when the best player in the league can't put a puck into an open net 6-on-3 you know we're not firing on all cylinders. now i'm not getting too down on the wings here--you're going to lose some games on the way to the cup, and it's not as if WE were the one's facing elimination at home. you have to know how desperate the stars were. i'm not too concerned about this game. saturday's game, much more so. yeah, the call was absolutely absurd, but we still could have won 4-3 if we'd scored some more goals. *shrug* either way, we'll get 'em in five. there's no shame in that.

like the other poster said, would have totally changed the game. they would have had to open up more and start taking chances. sure we could have still lost if they did count it, but i doubt it.

[arpawocky 0]

I will repeat, as much as I didn't like the call and it was wrong, blaming the referees tonight is a cop-out excuse. And Wings fans have been jumping all over Stars fans and analysts these first 3 games with "excuses" of them being tired and the like.

For me its not the loss. Its the fact that this happens to Homer over and over and over and over again. It was an obviously bad call, and there is a good chance that the same bad call will be made again in this series.

I think Holland should be screaming in Betman face with video in hand.

[PaVel DaTsYuK fan13 0]

Not 1, but 2 wings goals taken away. Unbelievable!

It was disgusting watching Gary Bettman sit there grinning his ass off watching his cronies ensure there was a game 5. That was the most one sided playoff officiating I've ever scene. Period.

I'm just so sick of the Stars moaning about having Holmstrom in there crease when Turcos sitting back there taking cheap shots and Otts beating his head into the ground with no time left in a game.

[Firehawk 305]

1. That non-goal hurt the wings mentally in the game, and motivated Dallas.

2. The non-goal happened at 0-0 score so you can't simply say "well the wings lost because of that", even though I understand had that goal counted, it would have been DEVASTATING for Dallas.

3. We had 2 goals taken away, not just 1.

4. Anyone else notice how overly happy Dallas was at the end of the game? It was almost like they were just trying to get one proud win for themselves before knowing they were coming to Detroit to get knocked out. It seemed they were 'a bit too happy' for having been down 3-1 in a series. Just my opinion.

Game 5, wings win 5-0.

I believe this loss will be better for the Wings in the long run. I'd rather they lose now than lose in their first game in the playoffs or something. I mean think about it, they were due to lose. To have kept the streak going means they'd have had to go 12-0 (win both games at home) before it being 'ok' to lose a playoff game. I'll take the loss now over risking something happening in the next round. It'll be good for the Wings.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Firehawk

[va Winger 0]

1. That non-goal hurt the wings mentally in the game, and motivated Dallas.

2. The non-goal happened at 0-0 score so you can't simply say "well the wings lost because of that", even though I understand had that goal counted, it would have been DEVASTATING for Dallas.

3. We had 2 goals taken away, not just 1.

4. Anyone else notice how overly happy Dallas was at the end of the game? It was almost like they were just trying to get one proud win for themselves before knowing they were coming to Detroit to get knocked out. It seemed they were 'a bit too happy' for having been down 3-1 in a series. Just my opinion.

Game 5, wings win 5-0.

I believe this loss will be better for the Wings in the long run. I'd rather they lose now than lose in their first game in the playoffs or something. I mean think about it, they were due to lose. To have kept the streak going means they'd have had to go 12-0 (win both games at home) before it being 'ok' to lose a playoff game. I'll take the loss now over risking something happening in the next round. It'll be good for the Wings.

I totally agree, especially with the last portion of your post. everyone who watches Hockey knows how huge momentum is..............simple for me. Goal counts = different complexion of the whole game. Not to say we would have Won, just a different game. I hate the fact that a 'blown" call could have been one of the deciding factors. Not to mention the penalties Not called in this game. To me it was almost like..OK Dallas, you are playing for your playoff life, it's OK to HOLD, Interfere with, rough etc...........Had the REfs been consistent, as they have been for most of this series.....many more RW PP's and a differnt outcome as well.

I am a firm believer that sometimes a loss (not that I like it) can be a great motivator) and like you, I think this will cause us to refocus and remember what it took to get this far........... Not to mention the fact that " I too would much rather see it now than later, when it may be at a much more critical point in this or the SCF series....................I think Dallas is in big trouble for game 5............I would not want to be in their shoes..................I BELIEVE they will suffer the wrath of a true champion...................!

[Mooker 0]

So they call a no goal on a phantom goaltender interference, whatever. My problem is this: IF Turco would have gotten lucky and the made the save or the puck misses the net, I think they would NOT have given Homer 2 minutes for GT interference. This isn't the first time this scenario has played out this year each time I'm left wondering why in the hell we don't get a penalty if it's goaltender interference. It's like Homer has his own version of the "Avery rule" with the difference being that one is in the rulebook now and the other just pops into the ref's head once in a while.

[russianswede919293 95]

"It's in the rules," McCarty said. "The rule says the goalie's got to be able to make the play and it's the referee's discretion. Whether you agree with it or not, that's the call and you have to bounce back from there. ... It wasn't because that goal was disallowed that we didn't win."

DMac has it right. You can complain, but you can't use it as a reason why the team lost, they need to win despite those calls.

Also I think that it is hypocritical that when Dallas fans say officiating is handing games to the Wings, we call them out and say fess up don't slather us with BS excuses, but now everyone seems to be saying the refs "fixed" the game and Bettman is "arranging" for the series to last longer.

I would like to think there is still integrity left in the game of hockey.

Does the league hire crappy refs and need to penalize the ones that miss calls in crucial games YES

Does the league fix games for their own benefit....I would like to think not

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Not 1, but 2 wings goals taken away. Unbelievable!

It was disgusting watching Gary Bettman sit there grinning his ass off watching his cronies ensure there was a game 5. That was the most one sided playoff officiating I've ever scene. Period.

I'm just so sick of the Stars moaning about having Holmstrom in there crease when Turcos sitting back there taking cheap shots and Otts beating his head into the ground with no time left in a game.

We've been giving Stars fans and media so much s**t the first three games for giving the Stars "excuses" why they lost.

While the call itself last night was bad yes, I can think of plenty of different things the Wings didn't do or could have done to win this game. And the referees certainly gave us more chances to win the game with more PPs in the 2nd and a 6-ON-3 opportunity in the third.

You or us doing the same thing last night as we claim Stars fans and annoucers have done the first three games doesn't make it justifiable or right all of a sudden.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

DMac has it right. You can complain, but you can't use it as a reason why the team lost, they need to win despite those calls.

Also I think that it is hypocritical that when Dallas fans say officiating is handing games to the Wings, we call them out and say fess up don't slather us with BS excuses, but now everyone seems to be saying the refs "fixed" the game and Bettman is "arranging" for the series to last longer.

I would like to think there is still integrity left in the game of hockey.

Does the league hire crappy refs and need to penalize the ones that miss calls in crucial games YES

Does the league fix games for their own benefit....I would like to think not

[McCartyFanForLife 17]

The Wings only had 1 goal taken away from them last night.

The "2nd supposed" goal should not have counted. Datsyuk reached for the loose puck and fell down. His momentum carried him into Turco and pushed the puck in; you can't push the goalie into the net and expect it to count.

Wings should have rebounded from the 1st goal taken away, but they didn't. Total lack of execution on our part last night

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

I have seen better crap coming out of the South end of a North bound horse

[jvxp 0]

All I can say is HORRIBLE!! Just HORRIBLE!! In fact this game reminds me of the Game 6 against Edmonton!! That is how bad the officals were tonight!! All I can say is we better win Game 5, or we're in BIG TROUBLE!! All in all I thought we played pretty good tonight, its just Dallas could do no wrong!! I simply cannot stand how terrible the Refs have been this year in the playoffs. Last night in the Pitt/Philly series they we're calling hooking peanlties that weren't even close. There is no consistancy, and I blame the NHL and Bettman for this. They put so much pressure on the refs to call these cheese-dick calls, and it almost seems like they call things they don't actually see because they are under the microscope! The NHL should be ashamed for this, this is why there ratings are down because they always want to change things!! Sorry, I'm ranting, but DAMN!!!

Totally agree. The refs have been terrible throughout the playoffs.

[Opie 308]

There are no excuses in Playoff hockey just wins and loses.

Should that goal have counted, YES!!

Should the Wings lost the game because it didn't count, NO!!!

One goal/call can change momentum or the tide, but only if the players let it!

[va Winger 0]

I think the League will look at the officiating for this game. I am hopeful that someone will be accountable, not to change outcome so far , but to insure the game is called as it should be............I said already, to much @ stake to have an outcome dependent on a couple of calls..............Hat's off to these guys on the ref crews, I would think it a very ,very difficult job. We can't base our opinions of them or the entire series on last night............. We can only hope that the remaining game(s) are decided by play.

[Hank 0]

As much as i hate blaming third parties, it seems this playoofs those who ***** and whine get their way so I'm glad it was said and in a discrete but truthful manner.

What pisses me off the most about this is I'll have to miss Saturday's game.

I agree. It's one of the things I hate most about playoff hockey. Every coach and GM has to ***** and moan to win a battle of propoganda.

The non-goal was a direct result of Tippet and Turco bitching to the refs before games.

And as much as Babcock said it was a blown call I was proud of him for not tacking the loss solely on that incident.

Babcock wants to move on and all of us should.

Let the Wings do their talking on the ice. They didn't look good last night so I'm interested to see how they respond on Saturday.

[dicksmack 33]

That call was brutal, but it's partially Homer's fault. If he hadn't bowled turco over just prior (another missed call) then there wouldn't have been the result we saw: A perfect shot gets nullified.

[TheMapman 0]

No excuses, certainly. But that goal would have been huge.

How much lighter in the ol' wallet do you think Babsy will be after that? $10k? $15k? Is there a "Red Wings Discount" (i.e. extra cost) for this?

I knew everything was going to go to s*** when Bettman was in the house. Good metaphor for the league. Maybe he'll reinstate Phoenix in the playoffs so they can have an all-warm weather finals.

[calfan 0]

I already mentioned the same thing in another thread. God willing.

As for the OP's initial post, I would hope everyone in the hockey world (including Stars fans) would know they got away with murder on that one.

Hardly. Let's grab a dose of reality people - it was one call. Sure it negated a goal, but it wasn't like it was an OT goal to win or lose the series. Earlier Homer backed into Turco and the puck just missed going in. Earlier in the series he interfered with Turco and the goal counted. These were clearly interference and there was no call. The Wings still had their chances - Dallas was simply better on the night.

Let's face the facts. Homer plays on the edge (of the crease, of the rules, etc). There is no one better in the league and if he didn't play that way, its doubtful he'd still be with the Wings/in the league/get the ice time he does (fill in your own preferred ending). How much of his ice time does he spend parked in front of the goalie? How many shots come when he's there? Each and every time the refs have to make a judgment call on what he's doing. And in the split second without the ability to slow down, rewind and over-analyze they make a judgment call. More goals count than are disallowed. Babcock knows that. He's simply posturing for the next time. If he said nothing, then perhaps the next time it goes against the Wings again. Homer knows that. If he was truly concerned about his play hurting the Wings, he'd be a foot in front of Turco instead of an inch. The fact is, the Wings are willing to have the call go against them because the inch is much more effective than the foot.

[calfan 0]

like the other poster said, would could have totally changed the game. they would have had to open up more and start taking chances. sure we could have still lost if they did count it, but i doubt it.

See my edit. For all we know Dallas could have gotten fired up and won 5-1 instead of 3-1.

[PenaltyShot 96 521]

The Wings only had 1 goal taken away from them last night.

The "2nd supposed" goal should not have counted. Datsyuk reached for the loose puck and fell down. His momentum carried him into Turco and pushed the puck in; you can't push the goalie into the net and expect it to count.

Wings should have rebounded from the 1st goal taken away, but they didn't. Total lack of execution on our part last night

Really? That seemed to work so well last year when Rob Neidermeyer pushed Hasek into the net while the puck was stuck in Dom's pads...

Sorry for bringing up old news, but I just hate how the refs on the ice have unquestionable authority at times. They can't always see exactly what happened on the ice - that's what instant replay is for! Why do we even have it if the refs are just going to rely on their 'gut feelings' and never use it? Sure we had enough time to get it back after both non-goal calls, but I agree with the posters who said that the non-goal calls take away a lot more than a tally on the scoresheet. It's not like air hockey where it's either just a goal or it's not, the momentum, the penalties, the players' attitudes, the arena atmosphere, other factors and etc. could have been very differently affected.

That being said, Dallas did play hungry last night. No worries, we'll finish 'em off at the Joe on Saturday.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Hardly. Let's grab a dose of reality people - it was one call. Sure it negated a goal, but it wasn't like it was an OT goal to win or lose the series. Earlier Homer backed into Turco and the puck just missed going in. Earlier in the series he interfered with Turco and the goal counted. These were clearly interference and there was no call. The Wings still had their chances - Dallas was simply better on the night.

Let's face the facts. Homer plays on the edge (of the crease, of the rules, etc). There is no one better in the league and if he didn't play that way, its doubtful he'd still be with the Wings/in the league/get the ice time he does (fill in your own preferred ending). How much of his ice time does he spend parked in front of the goalie? How many shots come when he's there? Each and every time the refs have to make a judgment call on what he's doing. And in the split second without the ability to slow down, rewind and over-analyze they make a judgment call. More goals count than are disallowed. Babcock knows that. He's simply posturing for the next time. If he said nothing, then perhaps the next time it goes against the Wings again. Homer knows that. If he was truly concerned about his play hurting the Wings, he'd be a foot in front of Turco instead of an inch. The fact is, the Wings are willing to have the call go against them because the inch is much more effective than the foot.

What does the fact that it ws "one call" or "that it wasn't like it was an OT goal to win or lose the series" have to do with anything. I don't care if its triple OT in Game 7 of the SCF's or Game 23 of the regular season. The point is that it was a falsely negated goal.

That being said, I've already mentioned that the Wings (and their fans) can't use that as an excuse in other threads. The Stars won last night, and the Wings will have to get back to their game in order to win on Saturday.

[motorcitykid 42]

I understand the frustration by him and us as well, but solely blaming the referees is a cop-out excuse.

Listen, it seems just about everybody is on board with the disgust in those two calls last night.

Homer did not interfere with Turco. It was a goal.

Did you see Turco's reaction right after we scored? He slumped his shoulders and let out a sigh like he just let in a bad one that his team needed him to stop. He sat there. Said NOTHING. Yet the ref decides it's interference. And it's a whole new game. How we were playing is irrelevant.

Pavel's goal?. He slides down and towards Turco. He makes minimal contact, not at all on purpose, which happens ALL THE TIME, and Turco HIMSELF goofs and slides back into his OWN NET, carrying the puck over the line. They call that off! It was a legit goal. Again - the refs deciding the outcome.

I'd expect the NHL to come out with some sort of apology; some type of comment about how these calls were wrong. What happens when these type of calls are made in a OT game?

For me it doesn't matter what the series lead is, or which team these calls go against. It's about the integrity of the game. I'm not just a Wings fan, i'm a hockey fan. And i'm getting sick of officials deciding these games. Take Detroit out of the equation, and i'll still sit here and discuss the poor calls in other series. Crosby, Malkin and the Pens, for one, have been getting away with ALOT. Our goal earlier in the series which Homer directly interfered with Turco shouldn't have counted. My buddies and me were saying how wrong that goal was, Dallas just can't get a break.

Screw the attitude, "well, the refs have a hard job .." nonsense. Last night's first bad call very much decided the outcome as far as i'm concerned, since a 1-0 lead would've been the proverbial dagger; we know the Stars were a nervous group - that would've been backbreaking.

It sucks, no matter what jersey you root for.

[eva unit zero 271]

Listen, it seems just about everybody is on board with the disgust in those two calls last night.

Homer did not interfere with Turco. It was a goal.

Did you see Turco's reaction right after we scored? He slumped his shoulders and let out a sigh like he just let in a bad one that his team needed him to stop. He sat there. Said NOTHING. Yet the ref decides it's interference. And it's a whole new game. How we were playing is irrelevant.

If the ref felt that Homer's positioning impeded Turco's ability to attempt to save the puck, then it ws goaltender interference. as I was unable to watch more than the first period, I missed pretty much every interesting moment. However, the argument that 'Turco didn't ***** about it' doesn't prove it wasn't goaltender interference.

Pavel's goal?. He slides down and towards Turco. He makes minimal contact, not at all on purpose, which happens ALL THE TIME, and Turco HIMSELF goofs and slides back into his OWN NET, carrying the puck over the line. They call that off! It was a legit goal. Again - the refs deciding the outcome.

Ultimately, there are two ways this goal can be waved off. If Datsyuk's contact is what caused Turco to fall into his own net, even indirectly, then no goal on goaltender interference if it was intentional, and no goal on dead puck if it wasn't.

I'd expect the NHL to come out with some sort of apology; some type of comment about how these calls were wrong. What happens when these type of calls are made in a OT game?

For me it doesn't matter what the series lead is, or which team these calls go against. It's about the integrity of the game. I'm not just a Wings fan, i'm a hockey fan. And i'm getting sick of officials deciding these games. Take Detroit out of the equation, and i'll still sit here and discuss the poor calls in other series. Crosby, Malkin and the Pens, for one, have been getting away with ALOT. Our goal earlier in the series which Homer directly interfered with Turco shouldn't have counted. My buddies and me were saying how wrong that goal was, Dallas just can't get a break.

Bad calls happen. What hurts the integrity of the game is not that they happen, nor that some calls are not reviewable via video. It is that in the NHL, we never see what happens in football sometimes, where one ref goes to call a penalty, but after a discussion the officials choose not to call a penalty. Admittedly, it is easier o do so in football because the play was going to stop at that point anyway; but there are rules in the NHL about 'accidental' play stoppages and how they should be handled.

As far as refereeing goes...referees have been more consistent from ref to ref and period to period in recent years than ever before, so anyone sitting there saying 'Man I hate Bettman, he ruined the game' over occasional arguable calls are really just looking for an excuse to *****, not providing any real thought or insight into problems the league may have.

Screw the attitude, "well, the refs have a hard job .." nonsense. Last night's first bad call very much decided the outcome as far as i'm concerned, since a 1-0 lead would've been the proverbial dagger; we know the Stars were a nervous group - that would've been backbreaking.

It sucks, no matter what jersey you root for.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Basically, different reffing tandems call the game differently. The refs in game 1 were not the same pair that reffed last night's game. If they were then you could draw comparisons between the two Holmstrom plays in each game.

But there was clearly a vibe throughout the game last night that Sutherland and Danny boy were appointed officiating duties for a reason.

It's all great to have Dallas win a game, NBC get another TV spot on Saturday, the league make some more $, etc. But if Dallas squeaks one out in Detroit on Saturday, then we have bad news on our hands......

Edited May 15, 2008 by rick zombo

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It was a weak call on Homers goal, but he got away with one earlier in the series when it deflected off his knee and past Turco. That same game the Wings benefitted from a 5-on-3 on an incredibly soft call against the Stars.

The bad officiating goes both ways. The good teams seize opportunities and overcome bad calls. The Wings have done that most of this playoffs, and will again.

What irritates me is just the total inconsistency within a series (and within a season) on how they're calling Homer's interference. He plays right on the edge, but that edge seems to keep moving.