Top 10 players in the world today

[Frozen-Man 144]

I stopped reading when you said the world's top three players are in Detroit. Come on. Try to be a tiny bit unbiased. I just can't respect your list in any way because of that.

I thought he made a very cogent arguement as to why Lids Dats and Z should be on the top three. Many people would argue that Lids is number 1 for all that he does (points, TOI, +-, all the intangibles) and I thought he made a great arguement for Dats and Z. I don't think that enough credit is given to the fact that they are both up for the Selke and considered to be at least 2 of the top 3 defensive forwards in the league. To me this honor is componded by how phenomenal they both are offensively. Compare the three finalists.

Dats = 31 goals 66 assists 97 points +41

Z = 43 goals 49 assists 92 points +30

Madden = 20 goals 23 assists 43 points +1

It is amazing that Dats and Z can be that impressive offensively and still be the best defensively. Furthermore, Dats had 67% more take aways than anyone else in the league. When you look at the total package I think that an arugement can be made for these guys being right up there at the top. They may not have quite as many goals as a few other guys but they aren't responsible for the other team scoring near as many either. It is always said that defense wins championships and these two guys almost never miss a shift either on the offensive end or on the defensive end which is more than can be said for some of the guys that many consider higher on the list. Yzerman said that he became a better player after Bowman came and he began to focus on the two way nature of the game and I think that is visible in these guys as well.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't see why; Z is the better player at both ends of the rink. Not by much, and not every night...but overall yes.

When Z leads the Wings in scoring 3 consecutive years maybe your argument will hold some water.

[Opie 308]

When Z leads the Wings in scoring 3 consecutive years maybe your argument will hold some water.

Don't hold your breath, for some reason Eva has a grudge against Datsyuk, I am guessing here, in the Selke thread he didn't think Dats deserved even the nomination, he says that Z is easily the better of the two.

I personally have asked him multiple times to defend that statement and he never defended his position, and for Eva not to throw stats at me until I cry uncle is just weird. So I am not sure what his deal is with Z being better than Dats, he didn't strike me as one of the posters that has to have everyone agree his guy is better than others (See Ozzie Hasek threads, Dats Z threads).

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Don't hold your breath, for some reason Eva has a grudge against Datsyuk, I am guessing here, in the Selke thread he didn't think Dats deserved even the nomination, he says that Z is easily the better of the two.

I personally have asked him multiple times to defend that statement and he never defended his position, and for Eva not to throw stats at me until I cry uncle is just weird. So I am not sure what his deal is with Z being better than Dats, he didn't strike me as one of the posters that has to have everyone agree his guy is better than others (See Ozzie Hasek threads, Dats Z threads).

Opie, Eva is a stat ***** as we all know. And I too have asked him to defend his position on this. You want to know the reason why he won't? Because the stats don't back up his opinion this time.

Here's the stats

2008

Dats

31 goals/66 assists/97 points/+41/21:23 ice time/54.4% face off/1.18 ppg

Z

43 goals/49 assists/92 points/+30/22:04 ice time/55% face off/1.22 ppg

2007

Dats

27 goals/60 assists/87 points/+36/19:57 ice time/56.2% face off/1.10 ppg

Z

33 goals/35 assists/68 points/+26/20:50 ice time/52.5% face off/1.08 ppg

2006

Dats

28 goals/59 assists/87 points/+26/17:53 ice time/53.1% face off/1.16 ppg

Z

39 goals/46 assists/85 points/+29/18:57 ice time/50.2% face off/1.10 ppg

In summary, over the past 3 years Datsyuk has 55 more assists, 26 more points, +18 higher

Zetterberg has 29 more goals.

Datsyuk has a higher average face off win percentage over 3 years

Datsyuk has a higher points per game output average over 3 years.

Datsyuk averages about 1 minute less playing time per game yet still posts better numbers.

Then you look at shooting percentages. The past 2 years they've been about the same. In 2006 Datsyuk scored on a whopping 19.3% of his shots or roughly once every 5 times he shot the puck. All you have to do is look at the number of shots they take to see why Z scores so many more goals.

Z took 358 shots this year, Datsyuk only took 264! If you do the math, if Datsyuk had taken 358 shots this year, statistically he would've bagged 42 goals to Z's 43 goals.

Bottom line is Z scores more goals than Dats and that's about it. Everything else they do defensively is a wash, face offs a wash, shooting percentages a wash. Datsyuk does more with less ice time and his points differential far outweighs Z's goal differential, telling you than Datsyuk gets in on more goals than Zetterberg does, which in my mind means he makes those around him better than Zetterberg does.

In one sense its a ludicrous argument because they're like 1A and 1B. They're both amazing. The bone I have is that Zetterberg always gets top billing over Datsyuk and there is no evidence to support that.

You can make an argument that Datsyuk is better than Z and you can make an argument that Datsyuk and Z are equal. But where's the evidence to show Z is better than Datsyuk? There isn't any.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I only considered forwards. No defenseman.

Of course that Lidstrom is the best player in the World.

Whew, in that case I think you have a pretty good list.

[eva unit zero 271]

Opie, Eva is a stat ***** as we all know. And I too have asked him to defend his position on this. You want to know the reason why he won't? Because the stats don't back up his opinion this time.

Here's the stats

2008

Dats

31 goals/66 assists/97 points/+41/21:23 ice time/54.4% face off/1.18 ppg

Z

43 goals/49 assists/92 points/+30/22:04 ice time/55% face off/1.22 ppg

2007

Dats

27 goals/60 assists/87 points/+36/19:57 ice time/56.2% face off/1.10 ppg

Z

33 goals/35 assists/68 points/+26/20:50 ice time/52.5% face off/1.08 ppg

2006

Dats

28 goals/59 assists/87 points/+26/17:53 ice time/53.1% face off/1.16 ppg

Z

39 goals/46 assists/85 points/+29/18:57 ice time/50.2% face off/1.10 ppg

In summary, over the past 3 years Datsyuk has 55 more assists, 26 more points, +18 higher

Zetterberg has 29 more goals.

Datsyuk has a higher average face off win percentage over 3 years

Datsyuk has a higher points per game output average over 3 years.

Datsyuk averages about 1 minute less playing time per game yet still posts better numbers.

Then you look at shooting percentages. The past 2 years they've been about the same. In 2006 Datsyuk scored on a whopping 19.3% of his shots or roughly once every 5 times he shot the puck. All you have to do is look at the number of shots they take to see why Z scores so many more goals.

Z took 358 shots this year, Datsyuk only took 264! If you do the math, if Datsyuk had taken 358 shots this year, statistically he would've bagged 42 goals to Z's 43 goals.

Bottom line is Z scores more goals than Dats and that's about it. Everything else they do defensively is a wash, face offs a wash, shooting percentages a wash. Datsyuk does more with less ice time and his points differential far outweighs Z's goal differential, telling you than Datsyuk gets in on more goals than Zetterberg does, which in my mind means he makes those around him better than Zetterberg does.

In one sense its a ludicrous argument because they're like 1A and 1B. They're both amazing. The bone I have is that Zetterberg always gets top billing over Datsyuk and there is no evidence to support that.

You can make an argument that Datsyuk is better than Z and you can make an argument that Datsyuk and Z are equal. But where's the evidence to show Z is better than Datsyuk? There isn't any.

You conspicuousky left out games played. Datsyuk scored 5 points more than Z this year in seven more games. In other words, had Z not missed time injured, he would have led the team in scoring. The way he was going to close out last season, he would have led the team in scoring last year as well had he not been injured.

As far as defense, that's more from watching Z and Dats play. Dats is big with the offensive zone takeaways, as others have noted. Z's defense is more related to always being in the right position. Watch him on the penalty kill sometime....he reads the play and cuts off the attacking forward's passing lane before the puck even reaches the forward in question. It's uncanny. Datsyuk is more of a reactive defense. Both are excellent; I just think Z is better. And for the record, my point of view in the Selke thread was more along the lines of 'Datsyuk does not deserve to win' and that 'he will probably not be nominated.' This is not the same as saying he does not deserve nomination. Simply that he is not the BEST defensive forward, and I didn't expect him to get nominated for the award.

And as I said...it's not like Zetterberg is Yzerman and Datsyuk is Stacy Roest. It is more along the lines of Yzerman vs Fedorov in the mid 90s. On any given night, one could be the better player. Both were top notch players at both ends of the ice. Both were very good on faceoffs. Some arguments simply came down to preference; who you thought was better, more consistent, more important to the team...whatever tiebreaker a person picked. As I said earlier...both of them are in that 2-6 group where any of them can be #2 or #6 at any given point.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

You conspicuousky left out games played. Datsyuk scored 5 points more than Z this year in seven more games. In other words, had Z not missed time injured, he would have led the team in scoring. The way he was going to close out last season, he would have led the team in scoring last year as well had he not been injured.

As far as defense, that's more from watching Z and Dats play. Dats is big with the offensive zone takeaways, as others have noted. Z's defense is more related to always being in the right position. Watch him on the penalty kill sometime....he reads the play and cuts off the attacking forward's passing lane before the puck even reaches the forward in question. It's uncanny. Datsyuk is more of a reactive defense. Both are excellent; I just think Z is better. And for the record, my point of view in the Selke thread was more along the lines of 'Datsyuk does not deserve to win' and that 'he will probably not be nominated.' This is not the same as saying he does not deserve nomination. Simply that he is not the BEST defensive forward, and I didn't expect him to get nominated for the award.

And as I said...it's not like Zetterberg is Yzerman and Datsyuk is Stacy Roest. It is more along the lines of Yzerman vs Fedorov in the mid 90s. On any given night, one could be the better player. Both were top notch players at both ends of the ice. Both were very good on faceoffs. Some arguments simply came down to preference; who you thought was better, more consistent, more important to the team...whatever tiebreaker a person picked. As I said earlier...both of them are in that 2-6 group where any of them can be #2 or #6 at any given point.

I didn't conspicuously leave anything out. I SPECIFICALLY noted each player's points per game output for you. It's right there in plain math for you. And what does it show, that Datsyuk has a higher average output per game over the past 3 years. So yup, Z could've bagged more points for himself had he played more (likely). But as it stands, given the actual games played, Dats has a higher PPG. Oh, and let's not get into the durability of a player playing a role in who is better as clearly, we all know who the more durable player is.

You have a great point that if Z was always healthy he could or may have lead the team in points. But he didn't. Just like Datsyuk didn't take 358 shots nor did he score 42 goals. So all we have is what we have, whose numbers are better.

And clearly Datsyuk's numbers are better.

As for defense, you admit it's a personal preference of yours that Z is better. I watch them both and think they're both so evenly matched how must I decide? So then I look at +/-. Story doesn't lie there. Datsyuk has a far superior +/- the past 3 years which IMO = tiebreaker.

I will agree with you 100% that on any given night one of them can outshine the other. That's a luxury we have that just makes me all giddy inside.

But that's 1 game or 1 night or 1 week of games. We're talking about who is better and statistically, over a 3 year span the clear, better all around player has been Datsyuk.

[Opie 308]

You conspicuousky left out games played. Datsyuk scored 5 points more than Z this year in seven more games. In other words, had Z not missed time injured, he would have led the team in scoring. The way he was going to close out last season, he would have led the team in scoring last year as well had he not been injured.

As far as defense, that's more from watching Z and Dats play. Dats is big with the offensive zone takeaways, as others have noted. Z's defense is more related to always being in the right position. Watch him on the penalty kill sometime....he reads the play and cuts off the attacking forward's passing lane before the puck even reaches the forward in question. It's uncanny. Datsyuk is more of a reactive defense. Both are excellent; I just think Z is better. And for the record, my point of view in the Selke thread was more along the lines of 'Datsyuk does not deserve to win' and that 'he will probably not be nominated.' This is not the same as saying he does not deserve nomination. Simply that he is not the BEST defensive forward, and I didn't expect him to get nominated for the award.

And as I said...it's not like Zetterberg is Yzerman and Datsyuk is Stacy Roest. It is more along the lines of Yzerman vs Fedorov in the mid 90s. On any given night, one could be the better player. Both were top notch players at both ends of the ice. Both were very good on faceoffs. Some arguments simply came down to preference; who you thought was better, more consistent, more important to the team...whatever tiebreaker a person picked. As I said earlier...both of them are in that 2-6 group where any of them can be #2 or #6 at any given point.

So Z gets credit for the time he would have played had he been healthy, but Dats doesn't get credit for the ability to stay healthy.

And I don't think it is Yzerman V. Feds part 2, that wasn't a skill battle(for lack of a better term) or complete player battle that was one guy showing up every night regardless of injuries or whatever was going on and one guy showing up when he wanted to!

I think Feds was great as a Wing but if he had Yzerman or Z or Dats work ethic he would have been bar none the best player in the world!!!!

I think it is more of a Yzerman/Shanny situation, they play great together, play very well on different lines, they do what the team needs them to do.

The difference being that Z and Dats have a lot more similarities in their game than Yzerman and Shanny did. Yzerman and Shanny complimented each other very very well, Dats and Z do that as well, but they at times are mirror images of each other.

Either way I think the Wings are lucky to have the two of them and hopefully come July or some time during next season the Wings get Z locked up long term!

[Inultus 12]

This thread is retarded.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

This thread is retarded.

Says the retard to the retards keeping the thread going.

[NHLrules? 32]

I know its fun to throw out the word retard, but how would you feel if you had a family member that was retarded. I know lots of retards that are smarter than posters on this board and they could most definatley kick most of your asses.

Sorry, I thought I was Crymson for a second there, carry on.

[Inultus 12]

I know its fun to throw out the word retard, but how would you feel if you had a family member that was retarded. I know lots of retards that are smarter than posters on this board and they could most definatley kick most of your asses.

Sorry, I thought I was Crymson for a second there, carry on.

I apologize to any retards who are offended by the word retarded. Perhaps I should retard my fingers the next time I retardedly think about typing retarded.

Oh, and I already had it out with Crymson about the *** thing.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Inultus

[Opie 308]

Yeah right, I mean why have manners, it is only the internet, no one really knows who you are, so they can't recognize you for the rude, degrading a-hole you really are. You can be as impolite as you want and no one really knows who you are!

It is just like being an internet tough guy, it works on your keyboard but no where else in life.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I know its fun to throw out the word retard, but how would you feel if you had a family member that was retarded. I know lots of retards that are smarter than posters on this board and they could most definatley kick most of your asses.

"I know plenty of retards who are living kick ass lives. My ex used to be tarded......she's a pilot now"

From the movie Idiocracy. retarded movie but has great lines like that one in it.

Edited May 21, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[Inultus 12]

Yeah right, I mean why have manners, it is only the internet, no one really knows who you are, so they can't recognize you for the rude, degrading a-hole you really are. You can be as impolite as you want and no one really knows who you are!

It is just like being an internet tough guy, it works on your keyboard but no where else in life.

Seriously dude, chill out. I wasn't trying to offend anybody, but I honestly don't give a s*** if I did either. And I'm like this in real life, not just on here.

And for that matter, I'm not the one saying how retards are smarter and can beat up other people. Seems like that should offend me, but guess what, I don't give a rip.

Finally, I didn't even say any person is retarded, I said this damn thread is! That's why I won't be posting in it again.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Inultus

[Opie 308]

Whether you were trying to offend or not means jack s*** if what you were doing or saying or in this case typing offended.

If you don't care what people think of you than fine, but when people call you an ******* for saying things like that don't get upset with them.

And I am chill, how can you infer any kind of inflection or meaning from typed words. I love it when people tell others to chill out or calm down, you have no idea if I am wound up over this or just making a statement.

But by throwing the words retarded or *** around as an insult to people who are not *** or retarded is insulting and offending to those who are *** or retarded.

Much like using words like the N word, it may not mean jack s*** to you and it may not be that you are trying to offend, but the bottom line is you are offending others.

And it is your right to post whatever you want here, however there are rules and guidelines and when/if you break those rules or guidelines don't be too surprised when you can not post here anymore. Not that I am a mod and have that control or that I am any way shape or form threatening you, just saying don't be surprised!

[fastballspecial 0]

1. Hal Gill

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

and that's all that matters!

LETS GO RED WINGS!!!!!!!!!!

[Graybeard 0]

1. Hal Gill

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

and that's all that matters!

LETS GO RED WINGS!!!!!!!!!!

Top 10 pylons?

[Pensfan 0]

Who has Datsyuk played with? Who has Zetterberg played with?

Who has Crosby played with before Hossa? Who has Ovechkin played with? That's why they're the top two players.

/endthread

[eva unit zero 271]

So Z gets credit for the time he would have played had he been healthy, but Dats doesn't get credit for the ability to stay healthy.

No; Z gets credit for how well he has played in his time healthy. I simply stated that two of the past three seasons Z has beaten Dats in points per game, and in the other one he went down with an injury in the middle of a RIDICULOUS scoring streak. Had Z been luckier in terms of health, he'd be the one who had led the team in scoring three seasons in a row. It's very close in the regard of actual point totals, and the minor difference in games played is what, more than anything, determined who end up on top at season's end.

Ultimately, I feel Zetterberg is, and has been, the better defensive player. But here's what I don't get; Datsyuk having better scoring numbers over the past couple seasons is what has been argued as why he's better offensively. Zetterberg has been an elite defensive forward for three years; Datsyuk has not. So the argument that Dats and Z are close defensively is based entirely on this season, when Z clearly outperformed Dats offensively.

Which is it? Three-year span or a single season performace that matters?

I was accused of picking and choosing my arguments because of stats...when that's actually what GST just did.

[Pavel Bure 0]

Wow lots of homerism here (to be expected though and at other team's boards since no board is called "non-biased hockey thoughts"). Not that I don't think Datsyuk or Zetterberg are great players but top 10 in the world? Niether has ever cracked 100 points. Niether has won any award greater than the Lady Byng and somehow they're being put ahead of Hart/Ross/Richard winners? Give me a break. They are stars but top 10 in the world no. As some of you mentioned the gaudy +/- numbers. Really? That puts them over the top? The Wings D and great transition game along with puck possession would sky rocket nearly any top line players +/- It's not like H/D/Z line is out trying to shut down other team's top lines on a constant basis. Sorry +/- doesn't matter as much as some would like it to. Like I said great talents and star players but not top 10.

[Dano33 41]

Wow lots of homerism here (to be expected though and at other team's boards since no board is called "non-biased hockey thoughts"). Not that I don't think Datsyuk or Zetterberg are great players but top 10 in the world? Niether has ever cracked 100 points. Niether has won any award greater than the Lady Byng and somehow they're being put ahead of Hart/Ross/Richard winners? Give me a break. They are stars but top 10 in the world no. As some of you mentioned the gaudy +/- numbers. Really? That puts them over the top? The Wings D and great transition game along with puck possession would sky rocket nearly any top line players +/- It's not like H/D/Z line is out trying to shut down other team's top lines on a constant basis. Sorry +/- doesn't matter as much as some would like it to. Like I said great talents and star players but not top 10.

So then lets see your top ten.

[fastballspecial 0]

Who has Datsyuk played with? Who has Zetterberg played with?

Who has Crosby played with before Hossa? Who has Ovechkin played with? That's why they're the top two players.

/endthread

THE THREAD IS STILL GOING, DUDE.

a forward slash isn't going to stop NOTHIN'.

boo yah.

LETS GO RED WINGS!!!!!!!!

[Pavel Bure 0]

So then lets see your top ten.

I intentionally didn't make a list because it is all opinion. The point is to show rampant homerism in blowing players up to be bigger than they are. Oh and before you say I'm just a nay-saying Pens fan. I don't consider Malkin top 10. If he shows consitency next year then I'll include him.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Wow lots of homerism here (to be expected though and at other team's boards since no board is called "non-biased hockey thoughts"). Not that I don't think Datsyuk or Zetterberg are great players but top 10 in the world? Niether has ever cracked 100 points. Niether has won any award greater than the Lady Byng and somehow they're being put ahead of Hart/Ross/Richard winners? Give me a break. They are stars but top 10 in the world no. As some of you mentioned the gaudy +/- numbers. Really? That puts them over the top? The Wings D and great transition game along with puck possession would sky rocket nearly any top line players +/- It's not like H/D/Z line is out trying to shut down other team's top lines on a constant basis. Sorry +/- doesn't matter as much as some would like it to. Like I said great talents and star players but not top 10.

I don't really know if I can make a list of the top ten best players in the world, but I think you should know that the bolded comment is false, as Datsyuk and Zetterberg are almost always out against the other team's top line, and not only shut it down, but continue to produce themselves. They're also our top penalty killers. Keep an eye on that in the next round.