Ken Holland Was SMART!

[Dabura 12,232]

How crazy is it that the two players people wanted Holland to pick up, Hossa and Stuart, are playing against each other, showing us which one was worth the cost to acquire?

You put Stuart in a Pens jersey and Hossa in the Winged Wheel and it would probably be a different story. Just saying -- EAT YOUR WORDS FOOLZ is a pretty stupid argument. The people who were bitching at the deadline -- including me -- wanted more secondary scoring. After the last several seasons of disappointments, and even after some stretches of play in this postseason, that was not an unrealistic demand at all, and people had every right to be upset with Holland for not doing something he had been saying he needed to do for months and months.

[Nightfall 871]

Mathematically your are right it isn't over. But in every other aspect it is. The Pens now have to beat us 4 out of the next 5 times and they haven't even been able to score a goal in 120 minutes.

It's over. The only question is how many more games we will play and how long will it take them to score a goal.

Yea, statistically speaking, this series is over. As a goalie, I have been on both sides of a comeback and I can say its possible, but very improbable. I just choose to look at the big picture. When the horn sounds signaling the end of the game when Detroit wins the Cup, then I will say mission accomplished. Thats just the kind of guy I am.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Newsflash: Lapointe sucks. Big time.

How could he help more than Filppula, Hudler, Cleary, Drake or Draper or Helm or...? All these players played great when Mule was out.

I know Ottowa only played 4 games in the playoffs but LaPointe had 0 goals 0 assists and was a -1. I agree I don't think that he would have been a big help.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

OH MY LORD, THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID! If you could have guaranteed me a Cup in February then I'd have been happy. But, if my memory serves me correctly, there were A LOT of people on here who were not happy that secondary scoring and depth were not addressed. I think Holland not adding depth was a very risky move. It's worked out very well, fortunately, but I don't find his lack of activity at the deadline "smart".

I prefer to judge GMS on how their moves actually work out in reality, not in how I "thought" they would work months ago.

[therock48880 14]

I can't see it any other way, nor did I say that we needed a trade in order to compete. In fact, if you look at the Ducks last year, they didn't make a deadline deal that helped them win the Cup. I know ESPN looked back on the deadline deals and found that a majority of them didn't result in the team doing it winning a championship.

As for the OPs point on apologizing, I intend to see a lot of apology threads here on this forum and I expect a lot of people to admit they were wrong. Heck, these are the same people that have said, "Told you so" after every playoff upset we have been a part of. You can't win a championship every year, but when everything works out and you win it all, the least the fans can do is be supportive and apologize.

My big apology to Kenny would be the Rafalski signing. I was livid when they signed him. I thought they needed a gigantic second line scorer. I certainly didn't expect Franzen to become that person.

[Opie 308]

If there was a 12th forward who didn't suck as much as McCarty, he could have played more minutes than the 3-4 minutes McCarty got, which would mean less ice time for the big guns, less penalties, etc.....

A roster with a 12th forward who is better than the current 12th forward is a better roster.

This is all so meaningless. I simply refuse to call Holland smart for not adding players at the deadline when the Wings were banged up and losing much more than winning. Luckily, everyone's gotten healthy and things are going great. However, I can't call him smart for standing pat when he had extra money available.

By the way, I WILL call him smart for his masterful cap work and getting the young guns signed to long term deals (except Z, so far) as well as making certain the D-corp is solid for years to come.

I realized what it is that is misconstruing your message.

You continue to use words like Luckily, if the Wings were to lose would you say it was unluckily that they lost or would you blame Holland for not getting player x?

[eva unit zero 271]

I was one guy who honestly did not want Hossa. If we could have got him much cheaper than he went for then sure, but the cost would have been too high for a rental. I would have rather had them get a second line player who we could have possibly resigned next year. I doubt they would have been able to sign Hossa for the 7 mill he will be trying to get, nor do I think he is worth it.

I maintain that, had the Wings been able to acquire Hossa for Flip straight up (or less) and sign him to an extension that would have fit under the cap, it would have been a good deal. Even with Flip's crazy goal, i'd still make that deal.

[therock48880 14]

I prefer to judge GMS on how their moves actually work out in reality, not in how I "thought" they would work months ago.

True and as it's turned out, everything is fine.

Plus, you're just happy that Huds wasn't traded.

[Dabura 12,232]

I maintain that, had the Wings been able to acquire Hossa for Flip straight up (or less) and sign him to an extension that would have fit under the cap, it would have been a good deal. Even with Flip's crazy goal, i'd still make that deal.

Well, that just makes you a hater. ATONE FOR YOUR SINS. EAT YOUR CROW!!!11oneone

[therock48880 14]

I realized what it is that is misconstruing your message.

You continue to use words like Luckily, if the Wings were to lose would you say it was unluckily that they lost or would you blame Holland for not getting player x?

I used "luckily" because as a wing's fan, i feel very lucky that it's worked out. 2-0 in the Stanley Cup finals? We're the luckiest fans in all of hockey. I don't think it was because Holland was smart at the deadline, it was because he's been smart getting young talent, signing them long term to reasonable salaries, taking a gamble on Osgood, etc...

[Nightfall 871]

You put Stuart in a Pens jersey and Hossa in the Winged Wheel and it would probably be a different story. Just saying -- EAT YOUR WORDS FOOLZ is a pretty stupid argument. The people who were bitching at the deadline -- including me -- wanted more secondary scoring. After the last several seasons of disappointments, and even after some stretches of play in this postseason, that was not an unrealistic demand at all, and people had every right to be upset with Holland for not doing something he had been saying he needed to do for months and months.

As every true hockey fan knows, winning a championship goes far beyond the skill that you have on the team. You have to factor in the breaks you get, injuries, and so on. Chemistry is the most important element though. If we picked Hossa up, would we be playing in the finals? Thats hard to fathom because we may have had to give up Hudler and/or Flip to get him. No one can say for sure how things would have worked out.

You can call it dumb luck, or you can call it a tactical plan by Ken Holland. Either way, he made the right move by not making any HUGE changes. He got Stuart for 2 draft picks which will end up being a great move for him in the end if the Wings make it.

If this does end in the Wings winning the cup, there should be some apologies given to the Red Wings management. After years of fans saying that Ken Holland and the rest of the management were morons for not getting scoring or some other player, they make the right moves this year. The least they can do is give him some credit.

Winning the Stanley Cup is a very hard goal to achieve when you take into account all the factors.

[Opie 308]

Well, that just makes you a hater. ATONE FOR YOUR SINS. EAT YOUR CROW!!!11oneone

For a second I thought you were talking to yourself!

Oh wait even if the wings win the cup you still think Holland sucks. Good thing this isn't a results based business.

What, it is oh!

[Nightfall 871]

My big apology to Kenny would be the Rafalski signing. I was livid when they signed him. I thought they needed a gigantic second line scorer. I certainly didn't expect Franzen to become that person.

I have a laundry list of apologizing to do as well. I intend to make a thread for everyone to apologize in after the Wings carry the cup around the ice.

[Dabura 12,232]

As every true hockey fan knows, winning a championship goes far beyond the skill that you have on the team. You have to factor in the breaks you get, injuries, and so on. Chemistry is the most important element though. If we picked Hossa up, would we be playing in the finals?

The implication being that I'm not a "true hockey fan"? Whether that's what you were implying or not, let me just say this: I've played hockey at the highest level I could at my age, I've watched hockey my whole life, and I've had experience with the sport in a coaching position as well as a managerial one. So believe me when I say I understand the nuances and various intricacies of the game.

Saying, "Had we picked up Hossa, we might not have made the SCF!" is not much of an argument. It's completely plausible that giving up Flip and a couple of prospects would have also allowed us to get this far, perhaps even more convincingly (i.e., no struggles against the Preds and the Stars).

But we're dealing in "What if..."s, which I don't really like to do.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I was perfectly content all year with all of Holland's decisions, and constantly defended him against the many attackers that he has on LGW.

Also, I have always been a firm believer in "team toughness"

[Dabura 12,232]

For a second I thought you were talking to yourself!

Oh wait even if the wings win the cup you still think Holland sucks. Good thing this isn't a results based business.

What, it is oh!

As I've said, I think Holland is far and away the best GM in the league. But I'm entitled to my opinions about him -- specifically, that he's prone to make mistakes that are often not the best possible ones available.

Oh, and I hate your freedom.

[Opie 308]

As I've said, I think Holland is far and away the best GM in the league. But I'm entitled to my opinions about him -- specifically, that he's prone to make mistakes that are often not the best possible ones available.

Oh, and I hate your freedom.

And as I have said, your tone was not always what it is now!

BTW, I love your freedom!

[StevieY9802 6]

People were worried back at the deadline because the team wasn't playing well but they were missing 4 of their top 6 d-men. Thats why people were looking at it and saying they needed a forward!! You think the Ducks would be doing good with Pronger and Schneider and Neidermeyer being out? That essentially what the Wings had to deal with. People don't or didn't realize how big Lidstrom, Rafalski and Kronner are with the offensive side of things. They get everything going. And I would take McCarty over Lapointe in the situation that presented itself. They got Mac for nothing and would have had to give up something for Lapointe and in the cap world I wouldn't give up a prospect or pick for Lapointe. McCarty's fit in well on the 4th line. This is why I reserve my judgement on things until after they play out. Holland has taken this team from 78mil to 48mil in 3 years while finishing 1st in the west all 3 years, one trip to the WCF's and one trip to the SCF's and now being 2 wins away from the cup. Everyone jumps on him when he doesn't do what they want and yet they don't know what teams are asking for what from them. Just because something doesn't happen doesn't mean he wasn't talking. Stuart has been great. I thought he would fit in but I didn't think this well. I'm gonna be nervous until or when this thing is done.

[Dabura 12,232]

And as I have said, your tone was not always what it is now!

And as I have said, tough luck!

Sorry, but you won't see me "eating crow." You can keep on saying, "OMG, yeah, but like, this one time, you were all like mean and stuff!" But I'm content with where I am right now -- being someone who has problems with the GM, but has never given up on the team itself.

Just to anticipate your next reply, Opie: I really don't care.

[Guest Crymson]

So, you're saying you'd rather have had McCarty playing the last two weeks than having someone like LaPointe or Fedorov or some other rental they could have picked up for next to nothing? Not me. Being 5 mill under the cap means nothing to a guy like Illitch, who regularly spent 80 million a year on the wings before the cap. They had a need at the deadline and he could have filled it cheaply, yet he didn't. It's all worked out ok, though, so he gets a pass this time. Still, it wasn't a SMART move, as you described it.

Picking up someone at the deadline means dealing away players and prospects, smart guy.

On that note, this thread hasn't done anything besides remind me that people will always find something to complain about, so I'll remove myself from this thread (I edited this one after making my post below).

Edited May 27, 2008 by Crymson

[Opie 308]

Denial it is more than just a river in Egypt!

[Dabura 12,232]

I realize, Opie, that you get off on putting posters "in their place," or however you want to refer to it. But seriously, give it a rest. Right now, you're the one who's looking foolish, as I'm not denying anything.

[Guest Crymson]

Hossa is Pittsburgh's best player so far. He's their strongest backchecker and has hit at least one post. His line has generated the most offensive chances, even if none have gone in. Datsyuk has no points, but I'm sure you wouldn't imply he's a throwaway player because he doesn't have numbers. Hossa isn't Malkin. Watch the games.

I believe the point the OP is making is that we're decisively winning this series without Hossa and, more specifically, without everything we'd have had to give up for next season in order to get him.

That fact is what counts here, and it indeed speaks for Holland's skill.

That said, when was the last time someone who wasn't Jason Williams was traded from this team? Holland just doesn't work that way, and nor do the Illitches.

[therock48880 14]

Picking up someone at the deadline means dealing away players and prospects, smart guy.

Ok, that's your opinion and I have mine. Personally, I'd have added some depth at forward and not counted on a 36 year old, past his prime, McCarty.

BTW, Dabura, I'm with you about Holland. I'm not a huge fan although he has done some good things since the cap has gone in.

[Opie 308]

I realize, Opie, that you get off on putting posters "in their place," or however you want to refer to it. But seriously, give it a rest. Right now, you're the one who's looking foolish, as I'm not denying anything.

Defensive much!!

So that you know I wasn't referring to you when I posted that, when I am referring or talking to you I will quote you or I will put your name at the top of the post, but man that reply really looks like you care what I said which would contradict your last post.

But it is not putting you in your place, it is reminding you that the things you say now weren't what you always said, that way it doesn't appear to others that all along you thought Holland was the best GM!

Oh and so that you know, if you don't like my posts you will have to ignore me, I will not stop responding to what anyone posts. That is just the asshat in me!!!

Edited May 27, 2008 by Opie