Higher All Time Ranking: Yzerman or Lidstrom?

[eva unit zero 271]

Yzerman and Lidstrom are both top-5 All-Time in their respective positions. The major difference between the two can be pinpointed to a couple of things:

Yzerman, in his breakout season in 1988, suffered a freak injury that would hinder him the rest of his career, when he went crashing knee-first into the goal post. Lidstrom has been able to avoid missing time to injuries. Yzerman's injury prone years at teh end of his career were all extensions and reaggravations of the same injury. Despite that injury, Yzerman would post what I consider the greatest single season performance by any NHL forward ever the very next season.

Had Yzerman suffered no injury...he might have won several Hart trophies in the 90s. How good would he have been if not for that nagging knee injury?

Another thing people forget about Yzerman; Yzerman was very good defensively, especially for the numbers he was putting up offensively, for his entire career. People like to say that Bowman taught Yzerman defense. But 1988-89 was the second consecutive season Yzerman would score 50+ goals, 100 points AND finish top-20 in Selke voting.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Yzerman and Lidstrom are both top-5 All-Time in their respective positions. The major difference between the two can be pinpointed to a couple of things:

Yzerman, in his breakout season in 1988, suffered a freak injury that would hinder him the rest of his career, when he went crashing knee-first into the goal post. Lidstrom has been able to avoid missing time to injuries. Yzerman's injury prone years at teh end of his career were all extensions and reaggravations of the same injury. Despite that injury, Yzerman would post what I consider the greatest single season performance by any NHL forward ever the very next season.

Had Yzerman suffered no injury...he might have won several Hart trophies in the 90s. How good would he have been if not for that nagging knee injury?

Another thing people forget about Yzerman; Yzerman was very good defensively, especially for the numbers he was putting up offensively, for his entire career. People like to say that Bowman taught Yzerman defense. But 1988-89 was the second consecutive season Yzerman would score 50+ goals, 100 points AND finish top-20 in Selke voting.

I was waiting for your post Eva, although you didn't seem to give Lidstrom enough credit in the comparisons.

Also, how did Yzerman have the greatest season ever by a forward? Yeah I know he put up 150 points with minimal talent around him, but based on that, Lemieux's performance the season before would be better, since he didn't have much around him in Pittsburgh either in his earlier years, and he put up 199 points once in a season.

[eva unit zero 271]

I was waiting for your post Eva, although you didn't seem to give Lidstrom enough credit in the comparisons.

Also, how did Yzerman have the greatest season ever by a forward? Yeah I know he put up 150 points with minimal talent around him, but based on that, Lemieux's performance the season before would be better, since he didn't have much around him in Pittsburgh either in his earlier years, and he put up 199 points once in a season.

Lemieux put up 199 points in Yzerman's 155 point season. Yzerman won the Pearson that year, and was 12th in Selke voting.

[Majsheppard 203]

Lidstrom is better, but the amount of class and heart Yzerman had can never be matched.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Lemieux put up 199 points in Yzerman's 155 point season. Yzerman won the Pearson that year, and was 12th in Selke voting.

So that would defeat your argument of Yzerman having the greatest season ever for a forward, since Lemieux had a better year.

[eva unit zero 271]

So that would defeat your argument of Yzerman having the greatest season ever for a forward, since Lemieux had a better year.

Yzerman was named 'Most Outstanding Player' and was a top forward at both ends of the ice. Lemieux was not.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Yzerman was named 'Most Outstanding Player' and was a top forward at both ends of the ice. Lemieux was not.

Neither were Gretzky, Hull, Howe or Richard. Being a great defensive forward is fairly new in hockey compared to what was once expected out of forwards.

Besides, Lemieux had all those SH goals, thus he could have easily been considered a threat on both ends of the ice, although I admit a lot of that is due to breakaways. Yzerman didn't really become great defensively until the 90's.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

In terms of overall talent or skills in both the offensive and defenseive parts of the game, I'd had to give a slight edge to Lidstrom.

In terms of overall health, Lidstrom.

In terms of overall leadership, it might not be fair to compare since Lidstrom has only been a captain for 2 years, but nobody is going to ever come close to touching Yzerman in this regard.

They have or are both some of the best players to play their positions regardless, and Lidstrom being better than Yzerman IMO in some aspects and vice versa should not take away from how damned good both guys are on and off the ice.

[Datsyerberger 279]

On an all time list? Lidstrom, by a long shot.

I like him and Stevie about equally, and my jersey is a Stevie.

But Lids is easily an arguable top 5 defenseman.

Now, if its a matter of captaincy.. Stevie, by a long shot (that does not, however, means Lidstrom isn't a spectacular captain.. its just that Stevie Y is almost a deity in that sense)

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

The question should read, are you over or under 30. In no possible way is this disrespect to Lidstrom who is a great leader keeping them where they are. But Stevie Y MADE the Wings what they are. A pure goal scorer who lit up the scoreboard for a perennial loser. He learned D, led by example. His aggressively blocking shots set the stage for the big names the Wings brought in that if Stevie does the dirty work, you will too. Everyone who came here learned this was Yzerman's team and you're welcome if you want to win Cups. No matter how much you love Lidstrom, and I do, no way to someone who remembers both their careers and hasn't lost their mind they choose Lidstrom.

Edited June 11, 2008 by NomadFromKazoo

[Dano33 41]

Lemieux put up 199 points in Yzerman's 155 point season. Yzerman won the Pearson that year, and was 12th in Selke voting.

Lemieux missed a month of that season too, just putting that out there, probably the best offensive year of all time, if he had that month back he would've put up 225 points.

[RWK23 0]

Lemieux missed a month of that season too, just putting that out there, probably the best offensive year of all time, if he had that month back he would've put up 225 points.

He only missed 5 games in the '88-'89 season.

[egroen 384]

Re: Best season ever:

Yzerman's 155 point season. Yzerman won the Pearson that year, and was 12th in Selke voting.

If that was the single greatest season by a forward ever, where do you put Fedorov's 1994 season?

Hart - Winner

Pearson - Winner

Selke - Winner

56 goals

120 points

Sakic scored 118 pts in '01 winning the Hart. Pearson and was runner-up for the Selke... during the dead-puck era.

Was Yzerman's 12th in Selke voting really worth the extra 60 points Gretzky gave you in 86?

Esposito's 76 goal season in 1970-71?

Hull's 65-66 with 54 goals which was a record (broke his own record) and 69% higher than the runner-up who had 32.

Mario's 1993 cancer season. He had 69goals 91assists and 160points in 60 games.

1983-84 Edmonton Oilers NHL 74 87 118 205 -- Gretzky has 2.77 PPG compared to Lemieux's 2.67.

How about Probert going 29/33/62 with 398 PIM's?

I know you said forwards, but Orr's Norris/Ross/Hart/Smythe haul in '70 is probably the greatest of all time.

Edited June 11, 2008 by egroen

[Dano33 41]

He only missed 5 games in the '88-'89 season.

k, nvm, didn't look it up before i posted, just thought i heard it somewhere.

[Electrophile 3,554]

I love Steve, as much as anyone here. I remember the "Dead Things" era and how he was the only thing on that team worth watching (at least, he was in my mind). When he retired, I cried. He was the first hockey player I grew up idolizing and watching on TV and religiously checking his stats in the paper.

That being said, if you at the end of Nick's career, look at where he stands amongst all other defensemen and where Steve stands amongst all other forwards, Nick will be ranked higher. RIGHT NOW, Nick is being called one of the greatest to ever play this game at that position. Imagine what will be said when he hangs up his skates. First European to win the Norris Trophy, first European to win the Conn Smythe, first European born/trained captain to lead a team to the Stanley Cup.....this makes him an absolute no-brainer.

Nick will more than likely go down as the one of the Top 10-15 greatest hockey players EVER at any position. Maybe higher if we win a couple more Stanley Cups and he wins a few more Norris Trophies. Steve Yzerman was a great hockey player. An amazing hockey player. But no where near the caliber of player that Nick is.

[eva unit zero 271]

Neither were Gretzky, Hull, Howe or Richard. Being a great defensive forward is fairly new in hockey compared to what was once expected out of forwards.

Besides, Lemieux had all those SH goals, thus he could have easily been considered a threat on both ends of the ice, although I admit a lot of that is due to breakaways. Yzerman didn't really become great defensively until the 90's.

Yzerman's performance, pre-Bowman, was already good enough to rank him as one of the best two-way centers ever. Bowman did reinvent Yzerman's game, from the standpoint where previously he had been a top offensive center first, and he also played defense, he was changed to a top defensive center who was also capable of scoring at a high rate. Bowman didn't magically make Yzerman a good defensive player; he already was one. Bowman simply changed his primary focus.

Yes, Yzerman's best years defensively were in the 90s. But he was still very good, perhaps even great defensively before Bowman.

[eva unit zero 271]

Re: Best season ever:

If that was the single greatest season by a forward ever, where do you put Fedorov's 1994 season?

Hart - Winner

Pearson - Winner

Selke - Winner

56 goals

120 points

Sakic scored 118 pts in '01 winning the Hart. Pearson and was runner-up for the Selke... during the dead-puck era.

Was Yzerman's 12th in Selke voting really worth the extra 60 points Gretzky gave you in 86?

Esposito's 76 goal season in 1970-71?

Hull's 65-66 with 54 goals which was a record (broke his own record) and 69% higher than the runner-up who had 32.

Mario's 1993 cancer season. He had 69goals 91assists and 160points in 60 games.

1983-84 Edmonton Oilers NHL 74 87 118 205 -- Gretzky has 2.77 PPG compared to Lemieux's 2.67.

How about Probert going 29/33/62 with 398 PIM's?

I know you said forwards, but Orr's Norris/Ross/Hart/Smythe haul in '70 is probably the greatest of all time.

Those are all fine seasons. The difference? Gretzky had Jari Kurri, one of the best finishers in league history who ALSO happened to be an elite defensive forward. Lemieux in 1993 was playing with two of the top power forwards in the league in Rick Tocchet and Kevin Stevens, and had a dominant second line on his team featuring Ron Francis and Jaromir Jagr.

Bobby Hull rode shotgun for Stan Mikita, who was considered the top playmaking center in the league at the time.

Steve Yzerman had a career third-liner in Gerard Gallant playing his left wing for most of his prime, and that particular season had right winger Paul MacLean (the Wings assistant coach now) playing the right side. Yzerman scored 65 goals, 90 assists, and 155 points. Gallant and MacLean COMBINED to score 75 goals, 89 assists, and 164 points. Lemieux that season was in a similar situation, where he contributed just shy of 50% of his line's offense. The major difference? Yzerman did it while playing top-level defense.

Fedorov's 1994 season is probably the most comparable...and yet, Fedorov had two very skilled wingers and a much more competent defensive unit (Steve Chiasson's 47 points were the most of Wings defense in 1989 and good for 6th on the team overall; Chiasson was third in defense scoring with 46 points in 1994, behind Lidstrom's 56 and Coffey's 77...Coffey was fourth on the team in scoring.

And I will remind you...I stated I consider it the greatest single season performance by a forward. This means that the relevance of defense and teammates is based on how important a factor I deem them to be. I did not claim it as "universally hailed as the most epic single season any forward has played" because that is obviously not true. But IMHO, no forward has had a better complete season than Yzerman did in 1988-89.

[thedisappearer 291]

Higher all time ranking as WHAT? Hockey player? Red Wing? Both get different answers.

Lidstrom is the better hockey player. With almost no debate, he is one of the three greatest defensemen OF ALL TIME. Yzerman is debately (and it's one I don't believe...) not in the top three of HIS GENERATION. Nick- 6 Norris', 4 Cups, a Symthe. Stevie- 3 Cups, 1 Pearson.

But as a Wing, it's all Yzerman. He's The Captain. He was there during the Dead WIng era when we played in the Bore-Us Division. He is the textbook definition of "leader". He reinvented his game while still being among the best at his position. He turned us into Hockeytown.

*sigh* It's a tie. Let's move on...

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

They are 2 different players. 2 different positions.

IMO, Yzerman is the best leader in the NHL. Lids leads by example, and he is the PERFECT player.

So, Yzerman on offence is an A- overall throughout his career, Lids is an A+ throughout his.

In a clutch situation, I would want them both on the ice.

[Electrophile 3,554]

My post was referring to the all-time ranking. I think if Nick can rack up a few more accolades in his already trophy-laden career, he could seriously challenge Steve on the Red Wings all-time list.

[egroen 384]

Lemieux that season was in a similar situation, where he contributed just shy of 50% of his line's offense. The major difference? Yzerman did it while playing top-level defense.

I would say Lemieux scoring more points in 20 less games, WITH CANCER (missing two months for radiation treatments), is slightly more impressive than Yzerman's 12th place voting for the Selke... might also be a noteworthy difference there, IMO

Edited June 11, 2008 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

I would say Lemieux scoring more points in 20 less games, WITH CANCER (missing two months for radiation treatments), is slightly more impressive than Yzerman's 12th place voting for the Selke... IMO

I didn't say Lemieux's season wasn't a more impressive feat given the cancer. I said Yzerman had a better year as in better ON THE ICE.

Also, the fact that Lemieux's weakest linemate in 92-93 was better than Yzerman' strongest linemate in 88-89 is a factor. If Yzerman were playing with physically dominant players who were also among the best offensive players at their respective positions...you can be DAMN sure that he'd have had more impressive offensive numbers. Everyone isso quick to say 'Hank and Dats are better than Crosby and Malkin because they play defense' yet when I say 'Yzerman had the best season ever by any forward because he posted one of the best offensive seasons ever, and is the only person to post anything close to those kinds of numbers AND be considered a top defensive forward.' I get shat upon for 'What about these other seasons where guys posted more offense?'

I dunno...I just don't ge how defense SOMETIMES matters and sometimes doesn't, depending on the discussion. Either it does, or doesn't. There should be no 'sometimes' about it.

[Doggy 130]

Everyone isso quick to say 'Hank and Dats are better than Crosby and Malkin because they play defense' yet when I say 'Yzerman had the best season ever by any forward because he posted one of the best offensive seasons ever, and is the only person to post anything close to those kinds of numbers AND be considered a top defensive forward.' I get shat upon for 'What about these other seasons where guys posted more offense?'

I dunno...I just don't ge how defense SOMETIMES matters and sometimes doesn't, depending on the discussion. Either it does, or doesn't. There should be no 'sometimes' about it.

The difference is one is much closer to being true than the other. Stevie's 88-89 season was up there though. It was amazing but not as amazing as Mario's.

Mario was so spectacular, the way he got through defenders and past goalies was incredible. How could you not be impressed? He could do it all offensively. I loved it.

He and Stevie are my two favourite players of all time (incidentally Rick Tocchet is also top 5) and these years are some of the reasons why.

[Booster313 138]

Lets add a poll to this thread.

[Hiei 192]

Offense wins games.

DEFENCE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Nick Lidstrom.