Kenny has some work left to do

[overHandright1 2]

I know that change can be scary and I know that I'm in the minority here, but seriously, where is Sammy and Huds going to play? On the third or fourth line? Perhaps some PP time? With the signing of Hossa and Helm and other skilled forwards coming up, we could get a good return for those two. Perhaps trading them for prospects was a little harsh. The third and fourth lines are more for the grinder style players, and we all know that Sammy and Huds certainly are not grinders. The Wings need a better balance between skilled players and tough players.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

key point number 1 = signing downey and mac.

Not really. Both are extremely replaceable.

The key point is to sign Ericsson, Howard and Filppula. Filppula is safe until arbitration, but Ericsson and Howard could still be had via offer sheets- so they're absolutely key right now.

Ericsson is widely regarded as the Wings most attractive prospect as far as other teams are concerned.

[Rivalred 630]

Someone did mention in this thread or the other thread about Nolan taking an assistant job - wonder if that is even an option and how that would pan out...

Like Booster stated above, keep Stevie away as he played with these players - same thought goes for Murphy in my eyes - keep it as a business type atmosphere to a certain point...

The key point is to sign Ericsson, Howard and Filppula. Filppula is safe until arbitration, but Ericsson and Howard could still be had via offer sheets- so they're absolutely key right now.

Ericsson is widely regarded as the Wings most attractive prospect as far as other teams are concerned.

I really do not see Ericsson or Howard going anywhere right now even if money was thrown at them... Those players know they have a good thing going on in Detroit as long as they play hard and stay focused...

A good example is the decision Hossa made...

Edited July 15, 2008 by Rivalred

[Booster313 138]

I know that change can be scary and I know that I'm in the minority here, but seriously, where is Sammy and Huds going to play? On the third or fourth line? Perhaps some PP time? With the signing of Hossa and Helm and other skilled forwards coming up, we could get a good return for those two. Perhaps trading them for prospects was a little harsh. The third and fourth lines are more for the grinder style players, and we all know that Sammy and Huds certainly are not grinders. The Wings need a better balance between skilled players and tough players.

I think it's a foregone conclusion that Sammy will be gone after his contract is up and he certainly has his downsides, but that being said he's a properly valued player in a cap world. Of course we'd all like every player on the team to be a Datsyuk or a Zetterberg but that's just not possible. As for Hudler he's fine as long as we don't expect super-stardom. I firmly believe that many on the boards hate him because some of us have unreal expectations of his potential. He is not a top six forward. He has the skill but not the size or the speed.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

I think it's a foregone conclusion that Sammy will be gone after his contract is up and he certainly has his downsides, but that being said he's a properly valued player in a cap world. Of course we'd all like every player on the team to be a Datsyuk or a Zetterberg but that's just not possible. As for Hudler he's fine as long as we don't expect super-stardom. I firmly believe that many on the boards hate him because some of us have unreal expectations of his potential. He is not a top six forward. He has the skill but not the size or the speed.

I think Hudler is a top 6 forward on almost any team in the leauge

Hudler is fast enough to be a top 6 forward. The fact that he puts up more than .5 points a game while playing garbage time with s*** players is a testment to him. Also in the playoffs he was unreal. If any one of our young guys becomes a consistant scorer me thinks it HUdler not Filp

[Drake_Marcus 890]

As for Hudler he's fine as long as we don't expect super-stardom. I firmly believe that many on the boards hate him because some of us have unreal expectations of his potential. He is not a top six forward. He has the skill but not the size or the speed.

Well he managed to be in the top six in Red Wings forward scoring during the regular season AND the post season... So um... yeah. He's a damn good 3rd/4th liner in that case. Also note that he always plays in the top six on power plays.

[overHandright1 2]

I think it's a foregone conclusion that Sammy will be gone after his contract is up and he certainly has his downsides, but that being said he's a properly valued player in a cap world. Of course we'd all like every player on the team to be a Datsyuk or a Zetterberg but that's just not possible. As for Hudler he's fine as long as we don't expect super-stardom. I firmly believe that many on the boards hate him because some of us have unreal expectations of his potential. He is not a top six forward. He has the skill but not the size or the speed.

I agree that Sammy is "cap-friendly" at 1.2 million. He produced 53 points during the regular season and playoffs which is a good return on Holland's investment. However, he lacks the physicality that the team will need this coming season. Your are right that he will probably be gone after this season so I guess I will just have to deal with it.

As far as Huds is concerned, he will be a RFA after this season unless Holland re-ups him before the conclusion of 08-09. If Holland doesn't re-sign him, he might receive an offer sheet from another team that he might not be able to turn down. In that case we will receive a first round draft pick in return which in my estimation is not a good deal. Shop Huds now and at least see what he may bring. Most likely, however, Holland and Huds will probably agree to go to arbitration, like Flip, and take a hometown discount which makes this post a pointless exercise.

[Guest Crymson]

What exactly are you figuring, my mile-high friend?

Well, let's see: you're proposing trading away two people who were very important to our Stanley Cup victory, who combined for 24 goals and 58 assists in the regular season and 10 goals and 17 assists in the postseason, and who have a combined salary of only $2.2m. Further, you're suggesting trading them away for absolutely no reason, because we have plenty of prospects and absolutely no need to rebuild.

[Tr!PoD#19 524]

I agree that Sammy is "cap-friendly" at 1.2 million. He produced 53 points during the regular season and playoffs which is a good return on Holland's investment. However, he lacks the physicality that the team will need this coming season. Your are right that he will probably be gone after this season so I guess I will just have to deal with it.

As far as Huds is concerned, he will be a RFA after this season unless Holland re-ups him before the conclusion of 08-09. If Holland doesn't re-sign him, he might receive an offer sheet from another team that he might not be able to turn down. In that case we will receive a first round draft pick in return which in my estimation is not a good deal. Shop Huds now and at least see what he may bring. Most likely, however, Holland and Huds will probably agree to go to arbitration, like Flip, and take a hometown discount which makes this post a pointless exercise.

Wasn't a problem last year, why would it suddenly become one this year?

[rage 24]

Wasn't a problem last year, why would it suddenly become one this year?

Yeah, I agree with you. Sammy has always been scrappy.

What do you want from the guy anyway overHandright1?

[Dabura 12,232]

Again I say: Sammy is a sold third-line option, as he's a checking forward at heart. He proved this with an exclamation point when he played with Drake and Draper. He's not cut out to be a scoring force -- that's why he "struggles" on the second line.

Again I say: Hudler probably "deserves" second-line minutes, but Babs won't give them to him should Flip return. And that would be the right call. The way I see it, the line should be Franzen-Flip-Hossa. Then you've got a demolition man (Franzen), a lights-out scorer (Hossa), and -- crucially -- a playmaker in Flip. Hudler has a good game, maybe even better than Flip's at this point in time. But Flip is the better setup man. He and Hossa could be an absurdly dangerous duo.

[Cicada 4]

wonderful another thread turns into a trade Hudler and Sammy thread...

this board can suck beyond belief sometimes...

it wouldn't suprise me if Kocur became video coach. He still lives in the area as far as i'm aware. It weird how Holland had no trouble at all signing players like Hossa and Rafalski, yet seems to struggle to sign the lower end free agents. Hudler took ages last year. Williams went to arbitration, and now Flip taking an age...

[overHandright1 2]

Well, let's see: you're proposing trading away two people who were very important to our Stanley Cup victory, who combined for 24 goals and 58 assists in the regular season and 10 goals and 17 assists in the postseason, and who have a combined salary of only $2.2m. Further, you're suggesting trading them away for absolutely no reason, because we have plenty of prospects and absolutely no need to rebuild.

I already conceded that trading Sammy and Huds for just prospects was a little extreme (see two posts ago). Since when is trading two players considered to be rebuilding? 34 goals and 75 assists by Sammy and Huds combined (reg/post season) ... huh? That's close to what Hossa will put up all by himself this coming season (by the way ... no pressure Marian!). Hossa had 41 goals/51 assists/ 92 points in the regular season and playoffs combined. Keep in mind that he was with the Thrashers for the majority of the regular season. It's not that I don't appreciate their contributions. True, they were important to the Wings winning the Cup this year. All I'm saying is that we need players with more grit and Sammy's hooking and holding and Hudler's unfinished checks aren't going to get it done. If you expect all these skilled players to be hitting as hard during the regular season as they did during the playoffs without being injured, you are sorely mistaken. More balance between grit and skill is all that I'm suggesting.

In the end, Holland will do what he thinks is best for the team. What you or I say here really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. At this point, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We all want the Wings to repeat as Cup Champions. I'm sure you all won't disagree with me in that respect.

[redwinger4747 6]

Don't forget about Leino, he may be better than Downey and McCarty. BTW, does anyone know

1) Does Leino's contract allows him to return to Europe if the Wings send him to GR?

2) Is Leino an UFA or RFA after his 1-year contract expires?

3) How many times does a player have to be passed over in the draft before they become a UFA like Leino & Brunnstrom?

[EstonianWingsFan#1 0]

I have always been against trading Hudler, he's been great considering the icetime and he really can deliver. Samuelsson I also like and wouldn't trade. Helm should be given a bigger role for the team, he is a physical player too and he's fast plus can score. I think he was one of the best players in the finals considering overall play. Now we somehow got also Kronwall going like a beast, he has really improved the physical side. I don't thing making big changes in a team that won the cup should be done. And we got Hossa, that's a huge advantage in addition to last years team. I say let guys like Helm, Hudler, Filppula have more icetime. In my opinion the wings don't necessarily need any enforcers. We are really strong. Chelios in not needed anymore, rather we should use more Ericsson or Meech, they can do it.. Can't wait to see Hossa in red/white

[Guest Crymson]

I already conceded that trading Sammy and Huds for just prospects was a little extreme (see two posts ago). Since when is trading two players considered to be rebuilding? 34 goals and 75 assists by Sammy and Huds combined (reg/post season) ... huh? That's close to what Hossa will put up all by himself this coming season (by the way ... no pressure Marian!). Hossa had 41 goals/51 assists/ 92 points in the regular season and playoffs combined.

All I'm saying is that we need players with more grit and Sammy's hooking and holding and Hudler's unfinished checks aren't going to get it done.

So Hossa can put up as many points as those two combined. Great. Does that make them worthless?

Grit? Yeah, clearly we were absolutely screwed this last season without what you feel was the sufficient level of grit necessary. Yeah, you're right---the team went absolutely nowhere. They sucked in the regular season and then flamed out terribly in the playoffs. Eh? No, wait... they won the President's Trophy and then won the Stanley Cup. As such, your argument holds no water.

[Dabura 12,232]

I already conceded that trading Sammy and Huds for just prospects was a little extreme (see two posts ago). Since when is trading two players considered to be rebuilding? 34 goals and 75 assists by Sammy and Huds combined (reg/post season) ... huh? That's close to what Hossa will put up all by himself this coming season (by the way ... no pressure Marian!). Hossa had 41 goals/51 assists/ 92 points in the regular season and playoffs combined. Keep in mind that he was with the Thrashers for the majority of the regular season. It's not that I don't appreciate their contributions. True, they were important to the Wings winning the Cup this year. All I'm saying is that we need players with more grit and Sammy's hooking and holding and Hudler's unfinished checks aren't going to get it done. If you expect all these skilled players to be hitting as hard during the regular season as they did during the playoffs without being injured, you are sorely mistaken. More balance between grit and skill is all that I'm suggesting.

Should Flip re-sign, the Wings will march into this season with basically the same roster that just won the Cup -- only, now with Marian Hossa. One or both of Downey and Mac will probably be back. All the team would be missing in the "grit" department, then, is a Drake-type player. While Drake was valuable, it would be idiotic of Kenny to part with Sammy or Hudler just to clear space for a guy like that. Sammy and Hudler give the team depth, and for cheap. Kenny's ability to find cheap-but-solid depth like this is one of the reasons why this team has been able to stay so competitive in the cap era.

[overHandright1 2]

So Hossa can put up as many points as those two combined. Great. Does that make them worthless?

You just want to keep on going, don't ya? I never said that Samuelsson and Hudler were worthless. I know the cliché "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Holland is likely to mirror that saying in his tweaking of the team's roster. Dabura is correct in saying that Drake was a valuable player last season. He played 65 games last season. Downey played 56 games last season. Now Drake is gone and Downey is going to be offered a two-way contract. That's a substantial drop in team toughness. True, Dally and Downey didn't have a ton of minutes, but they did give the rest of the forwards some rest all while punishing the opposition physically.

By the way, your string of sarcastic statements makes you sound childish. Now get your PJs on, brush your teeth, and go to bed.

Edited July 15, 2008 by overHandright1

[rage 24]

I expect Kopecky to take Drake's role this coming season.

[Dabura 12,232]

I'm also correct in saying a player of Drake's caliber is, when you get right down to it, less valuable than a player like Sammy or Hudler. You may not care for these two, but the guys you're billing as key pieces are lower on the totem pole. If room needs to be made for "toughness," then scrubs will be moved around, not Sammy or Hudler.

[LeDs 0]

You cant have a team with all skill and no grit and win. Thats the reason we lost to the Ducks in the Conference finals last year. We added Drake and later Mac and Helm and that helped change the attitude of the team. Just take Datsyuk's comments about how he was hitting more because of watching Drake. For all of you who think we can just stay the same and win again thats not going to happen. Adding Hossa was great but he doesn't replace Drakes' intensity and grit. The reason its so hard to repeat is because the desire isn't as strong and players become complacent.

[Cicada 4]

You cant have a team with all skill and no grit and win. Thats the reason we lost to the Ducks in the Conference finals last year. We added Drake and later Mac and Helm and that helped change the attitude of the team. Just take Datsyuk's comments about how he was hitting more because of watching Drake. For all of you who think we can just stay the same and win again thats not going to happen. Adding Hossa was great but he doesn't replace Drakes' intensity and grit. The reason its so hard to repeat is because the desire isn't as strong and players become complacent.

no..

we lost to the ducks because we had Schenider and Kronwall out and Lilja playing top 4 minutes. Not to mention our second line at the time consited of Robert Lang, Todd Bertizzi and Kyle freaking Calder. Don't forget that we were seconds away from taking a real stranglehold on that series.

intensity and grit isn't a problem for us, even without Drake

and i think the Wings have shown before that they're not just anothe team. They would have likely repeated in 2003 if it wasn't for the Stay Puft Marshmallow man in goal for the ducks.

it would be utterly retarded to count us our just because we don't have Dallas Drake in our lineup anymore. May i remind you that during the regular season Kopecky actually outhit Drake, even though he had less ice time.

[UKWING 8]

cheli kick ass and was great during the playoffs. cheli had the same number of points as kopecky did last season (12) and did it in 8 less games.

erickson didn't do jack when he came up.

you must have been watching a different playoffs to me. cheli really struggled and was rightly benched in favour of everone's favourite whipping boy lilja. age seems to finally be catching up with chelios and i would rather see him in some kind of coaching capacity this season.

i thought ericsson showed a lot of promise when he came up and the only reason he is not a lock to be playing for the wings this year is because they have so many d-men already and ericsson is the only one who can be brought up and sent down without having to clear waivers.

[UKWING 8]

I already conceded that trading Sammy and Huds for just prospects was a little extreme (see two posts ago). Since when is trading two players considered to be rebuilding? 34 goals and 75 assists by Sammy and Huds combined (reg/post season) ... huh? That's close to what Hossa will put up all by himself this coming season (by the way ... no pressure Marian!). Hossa had 41 goals/51 assists/ 92 points in the regular season and playoffs combined. Keep in mind that he was with the Thrashers for the majority of the regular season. It's not that I don't appreciate their contributions. True, they were important to the Wings winning the Cup this year. All I'm saying is that we need players with more grit and Sammy's hooking and holding and Hudler's unfinished checks aren't going to get it done. If you expect all these skilled players to be hitting as hard during the regular season as they did during the playoffs without being injured, you are sorely mistaken. More balance between grit and skill is all that I'm suggesting.

In the end, Holland will do what he thinks is best for the team. What you or I say here really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. At this point, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We all want the Wings to repeat as Cup Champions. I'm sure you all won't disagree with me in that respect.

i hope hossa does get that many points. but even if he does then he will do it earning over $5m more then hudler and sammy combined.

yes grit and toughness are vital but i really don't see that being a problem for the wings as long as they sign at least one of downey and mac (though personally i hope kenny signs both of them!). with stuart, lilja and kronwall on the back-end the wings have enough physicality there and the forwards showed they are plenty gritty enough. the only thing lacking is one or two people to drop the gloves when needed which is where mac and downey come in.

but what this past season really showed is the importance of secondary scoring and nobody has as much scoring depth as the wings. there will be times (just like this season) where datsyuk and zetterberg (and now hossa) are kept off the score sheet. this is where you need other guys to step up just as sammy did in game 1 of the SCF and hudler did in game 4. at their respective salaries, these guys are almost irreplaceable.

quite simply, the wings showed that they are without doubt the best team in the nhl and now they have added marian hossa. the most important thing is to make as few other changes as possible.

[Zion 93]

Well, let's see: you're proposing trading away two people who were very important to our Stanley Cup victory, who combined for 24 goals and 58 assists in the regular season and 10 goals and 17 assists in the postseason, and who have a combined salary of only $2.2m. Further, you're suggesting trading them away for absolutely no reason, because we have plenty of prospects and absolutely no need to rebuild.

Slam dunk. Now STFU about Sammy/Huds. I was wrong about Sammy going into the playoffs, and will be the first to admit it. He's a bargain and responsible defensively. He'll still bruise goalies' chests, but is still good for a few points and a few BIG playoff points.

you must have been watching a different playoffs to me. cheli really struggled and was rightly benched in favour of everone's favourite whipping boy lilja. age seems to finally be catching up with chelios and i would rather see him in some kind of coaching capacity this season.

i thought ericsson showed a lot of promise when he came up and the only reason he is not a lock to be playing for the wings this year is because they have so many d-men already and ericsson is the only one who can be brought up and sent down without having to clear waivers.

And you must have been only watching the Dallas series.