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Red Winged

I STILL Cant Believe Hossa Is a Red Wing

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How has Hossa stacked up against his teammates? He's led his team four times, finished second twice, and finished sixth once. Only once in his career has he finished outside the top six in scoring on his team in the playoffs.

Let's compare to Lecavalier...

Lecavalier finished 4th, 4th, T4th, and 3rd in team scoring in his four playoff appearances. Not once in the top-two; somewhere Hossa has finished on his team six of eight seasons. Hossa was even doing it as a second liner while Lecavalier was the anointed franchise player.

Just because he was near or at the top of his team in scoring doesn't make him a playoff performer. If the team as a whole sucks and he just sucked less then the rest, that isn't something to write home about. TBH, this doesn't really have anything to do with Vinny other than Zion brought him up in comparison. The fact of the matter is Hossa (whether leading his team in scoring or not) hasn't been a good playoff performer *consistently* since the start of his career, and just because the team around him struggled doesn't in any way validate his performance or make him worthy of the title you labeled him.

As I said, Hossa's *numbers* are no more impressive than Vinny's and before Hossa's breakout postseason this year (playing alongside Crosby) his PPG in the playoffs was over 13% lower than Lecavalier's.

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Ok, then the fact that he has better career points-per-game in the postseason than Vinny surely makes Vinny a total playoff bust also.

I already stated that I was wrong calling him a playoff bust, so your point would be what again?

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Just because he was near or at the top of his team in scoring doesn't make him a playoff performer. If the team as a whole sucks and he just sucked less then the rest, that isn't something to write home about. TBH, this doesn't really have anything to do with Vinny other than Zion brought him up in comparison. The fact of the matter is Hossa (whether leading his team in scoring or not) hasn't been a good playoff performer *consistently* since the start of his career, and just because the team around him struggled doesn't in any way validate his performance or make him worthy of the title you labeled him.

As I said, Hossa's *numbers* are no more impressive than Vinny's and before Hossa's breakout postseason this year (playing alongside Crosby) his PPG in the playoffs was over 13% lower than Lecavalier's.

So what you're saying is...

Hossa's big season doesn't count because he was playing with Crosby, but Lecavalier, who was consistently third ON HIS LINE in scoring, doesn't get discounted for having always played with more productive players? Even though the gap between Hossa's production and Crosby's was much smaller than that between Lecavalier and Richards/St.Louis.

I will also remind you...this is the FIRST season Hossa has had a linemate with equal or greater ability than his own. Lecavalier played with two of them, consistently. Why does Lecavalier get a free pass on the 'playing with...' thing while Hossa does not?

I pointed out that Hossa was at the top of his team consistently because it backed up the idea that he was the best playoff performer on his team. Lecavalier has never led his LINE in scoring. Yet nobody has ever called Vinny a playoff bust; an accusation which has hounded Hossa since Ottawa.

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So what you're saying is...

Hossa's big season doesn't count because he was playing with Crosby, but Lecavalier, who was consistently third ON HIS LINE in scoring, doesn't get discounted for having always played with more productive players? Even though the gap between Hossa's production and Crosby's was much smaller than that between Lecavalier and Richards/St.Louis.

I will also remind you...this is the FIRST season Hossa has had a linemate with equal or greater ability than his own. Lecavalier played with two of them, consistently. Why does Lecavalier get a free pass on the 'playing with...' thing while Hossa does not?

I pointed out that Hossa was at the top of his team consistently because it backed up the idea that he was the best playoff performer on his team. Lecavalier has never led his LINE in scoring. Yet nobody has ever called Vinny a playoff bust; an accusation which has hounded Hossa since Ottawa.

Whether Lecavalier gets a free pass or not, or is a better/worse playoff performer isn't the point. I thought I made that clear in my previous post. If you want to argue who the better playoff performer is between these two, it could very easily go either way as they seem to have similar postseasons.

The bottom line is somehow this thread digressed and started comparing him to Vinny when that had nothing to do with your initial comment which stated that Hossa has always been a good playoff performer. The truth of the matter is he hasn't *regardless of what Vinny has done*.

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So what you're saying is...

Hossa's big season doesn't count because he was playing with Crosby, but Lecavalier, who was consistently third ON HIS LINE in scoring, doesn't get discounted for having always played with more productive players? Even though the gap between Hossa's production and Crosby's was much smaller than that between Lecavalier and Richards/St.Louis.

I will also remind you...this is the FIRST season Hossa has had a linemate with equal or greater ability than his own. Lecavalier played with two of them, consistently. Why does Lecavalier get a free pass on the 'playing with...' thing while Hossa does not?

I pointed out that Hossa was at the top of his team consistently because it backed up the idea that he was the best playoff performer on his team. Lecavalier has never led his LINE in scoring. Yet nobody has ever called Vinny a playoff bust; an accusation which has hounded Hossa since Ottawa.

UMMM Kovalchuk?

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Whether Lecavalier gets a free pass or not, or is a better/worse playoff performer isn't the point. I thought I made that clear in my previous post. If you want to argue who the better playoff performer is between these two, it could very easily go either way as they seem to have similar postseasons.

The bottom line is somehow this thread digressed and started comparing him to Vinny when that had nothing to do with your initial comment which stated that Hossa has always been a good playoff performer. The truth of the matter is he hasn't *regardless of what Vinny has done*.

I'll rephrase it slightly. "He's always been among the best playoff performers on his team."

Better?

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I’m stoked that Hossa is a Wing. Adding a player with his dynamic solidifies our second line as well as the 2nd PP unit. We’re no longer considered a 1 line team, even with the emergence of Franzen at the end of the 07-08 season. I don’t think anyone in the Wings front office is expecting him to come in and score 120 points, they want him to play within the system, one that sets us apart from the rest of the league.

We just went from winning our 11th cup to adding the most sought after FA not named Sundin, yet people still find a need to pick apart every last detail of this team. My only request is that he puts more stock into the crest on the front of the sweater than the name on the back.

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UMMM Kovalchuk?

The 2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers' top-three in regular season scoring (the only season Hossa went to the playoffs as a Thrasher)

Marian Hossa: 82 GP, 43g-57a-100pt

Slava Kozlov: 81 GP, 28g-52a-80pt

Ilya Kovalchuk: 82 GP, 42g-34a-76pt

How about total scoring line, Hossa vs Kovalchuk, in the past three seasons in an Atlanta uniform?

Marian Hossa: 222 GP, 108g-140a-248pt, 1.12PPG

Ilya Kovalchuk: 239 GP, 146g-115a-261pt, 1.09 PPG

So what does "UMMM Kovalchuk?" exactly mean? Hossa outperformed Kovalchuk offensively, and is better defensively. Oh, and they were usually on different lines.

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The 2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers' top-three in regular season scoring (the only season Hossa went to the playoffs as a Thrasher)

Marian Hossa: 82 GP, 43g-57a-100pt

Slava Kozlov: 81 GP, 28g-52a-80pt

Ilya Kovalchuk: 82 GP, 42g-34a-76pt

How about total scoring line, Hossa vs Kovalchuk, in the past three seasons in an Atlanta uniform?

Marian Hossa: 222 GP, 108g-140a-248pt, 1.12PPG

Ilya Kovalchuk: 239 GP, 146g-115a-261pt, 1.09 PPG

So what does "UMMM Kovalchuk?" exactly mean? Hossa outperformed Kovalchuk offensively, and is better defensively. Oh, and they were usually on different lines.

Wait weren't we talking postseason, what in the hell does regular season stats have to do with the post season, oh that is right they don't unless eva is trying to prove a point!

You really don't think Kovalchuk is on par with Hossa's ability, you really think those ppg stats that show an iota of difference between them means that Kovalchuck is not an equal hockey player?

Seriously dude, people bring up Kovi in top 10 players in the game, how often do you hear Hossa's name brought up in that conversation.

OHH my god they have a .03 difference in their ppg %, wow they must be no where near each other in talent, especially in 06-07 when Kovi put up 2 in four games while Hossa put up 1 in 4 games.

You are arguing completely different points then you started arguing, you have turned into a poster who can never admit he is wrong, you throw out whatever stat tickles your fancy that day and you think proves your point.

You originally said:

HOSSA IS ALWAYS A GOOD PLAYOFF PERFORMER

Now you are offering excuses and different points to try and make your point, admit you were wrong and say he has had great seasons and bad seasons, I admitted I was wrong in saying he was a playoff bust, right after you pointed out his good seasons. Why is it so hard for you to say, holy s*** I was wrong once, Hossa hasn't always been a good playoff performer. Instead you "slightly alter" your statement, from what it is above to :

He is always at or near the top of his team in scoring.

Well great but that is not a slight alteration that is a huge difference.

You were wrong admit it.

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Instead of looking at just the 06-07 numbers that helped your point Eva lets look at their careers:

Including playoffs Kovi:

2001-02 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 65 29 22 51 28 -- -- -- -- --

2002-03 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 81 38 29 67 57 -- -- -- -- --

2003-04 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 81 41 46 87 63 -- -- -- -- --

2005-06 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 78 52 46 98 68 -- -- -- -- --

2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82 42 34 76 66 4 1 1 2 19

2007-08 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 79 52 35 87 52 -- -- -- -- --

NHL Totals 466 254 212 466 334 4 1 1 2 19

Including playoffs Hossa:

1997-98 Ottawa Senators NHL 7 0 1 1 0 -- -- -- -- --

1998-99 Ottawa Senators NHL 60 15 15 30 37 4 0 2 2 4

1999-00 Ottawa Senators NHL 78 29 27 56 32 6 0 0 0 2

2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 32 43 75 44 4 1 1 2 4

2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 80 31 35 66 50 12 4 6 10 2

2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 80 45 35 80 34 18 5 11 16 6

2003-04 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 36 46 82 46 7 3 1 4 0

2005-06 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 80 39 53 92 67 -- -- -- -- --

2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82 43 57 100 49 4 0 1 1 6

2007-08 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 60 26 30 56 30 -- -- -- -- --

2007-08 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL 12 3 7 10 6 20 12 14 26 12

NHL Totals 701 299 349 648 395 75 25 36 61 36

Kovi is exactly a PPG player where as Hossa is below a ppg and in 235 less games Kovi has 45 less goals and 137 assists less (that is a huge gap btw, not saying that proves my point just pointing out their differences)

Add to that Kovi has played with the Thrash for his career, that can't help.

EDIT: I will say that Kovi may have been a bad example because they were not on the same line, I was unaware of that point, I was sure that after Savard left Kovi and Hossa were together.

Edited by Opie

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Wait weren't we talking postseason, what in the hell does regular season stats have to do with the post season, oh that is right they don't unless eva is trying to prove a point!

You really don't think Kovalchuk is on par with Hossa's ability, you really think those ppg stats that show an iota of difference between them means that Kovalchuck is not an equal hockey player?

Seriously dude, people bring up Kovi in top 10 players in the game, how often do you hear Hossa's name brought up in that conversation.

OHH my god they have a .03 difference in their ppg %, wow they must be no where near each other in talent, especially in 06-07 when Kovi put up 2 in four games while Hossa put up 1 in 4 games.

You are arguing completely different points then you started arguing, you have turned into a poster who can never admit he is wrong, you throw out whatever stat tickles your fancy that day and you think proves your point.

You originally said:

HOSSA IS ALWAYS A GOOD PLAYOFF PERFORMER

Now you are offering excuses and different points to try and make your point, admit you were wrong and say he has had great seasons and bad seasons, I admitted I was wrong in saying he was a playoff bust, right after you pointed out his good seasons. Why is it so hard for you to say, holy s*** I was wrong once, Hossa hasn't always been a good playoff performer. Instead you "slightly alter" your statement, from what it is above to :

He is always at or near the top of his team in scoring.

Well great but that is not a slight alteration that is a huge difference.

You were wrong admit it.

Now reconcile the fact that Hossa and Kovalchuk usually played on different lines and therefore regardless of whether Kovalchuk was comparable, he wasn't a regular linemate and has no bearing on this conversation.

But since you are so hung up on the 'always' comment....

Name me a player in NHL history who never had a 'down' playoff offensively as compared to his other playoffs, and was considered a star two-way player like Hossa.

Then you can trash my 'always' remark.

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Name me a player in NHL history who never had a 'down' playoff offensively as compared to his other playoffs, and was considered a star two-way player like Hossa.

Then you can trash my 'always' remark.

Brad Richards maybe,although he wasn't THAT great in his first NHL playoffs 2002-2003.

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Now reconcile the fact that Hossa and Kovalchuk usually played on different lines and therefore regardless of whether Kovalchuk was comparable, he wasn't a regular linemate and has no bearing on this conversation.

But since you are so hung up on the 'always' comment....

Name me a player in NHL history who never had a 'down' playoff offensively as compared to his other playoffs, and was considered a star two-way player like Hossa.

Then you can trash my 'always' remark.

I did reconcile the Kovi Hossa linemate issue, but it was in the thread I posted, I assume, after you started this post.

The word always exists outside of Hockey, it is a constant, hell it is almost the exact definition of the word constant.

Now your stance is he is always a playoff performer based on the fact that no one has a great playoff year every year that they are in the playoffs so therefore the word always actually means 3 out of 8 years.

And here is a name for you:

Mario Lemieux in 8 playoff seasons he never managed less points then games played. EDIT: Damn, in 00-01 he only put up 17 pts in 18 games, oh well that is still good in my book just disproves my theory of never less than ppg.

In 107 games 76g 96a 172pts

Therefore he was ALWAYS a good playoff performer.

Good enough for you or should I go beyond the 2nd name I looked up?

Am I free to trash your Always remark now?

Edited by Opie

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As for this whole discussion about playoff performance...

Seems that a majority of players seem to have adjustments when it comes to playoff hockey. Look at Datsyuk for instance...

2003-04 Detroit NHL 12 0 6 6 +1 2 19 .00

2002-03 Detroit NHL 4 0 0 0 -3 0 9 .00

2001-02 Detroit NHL 21 3 3 6 +1 2 20 15.00

In 3 playoff seasons in Detroit, 37 games and a whopping 12 points with only 3 goals.

What about Zets?

2003-04 Detroit NHL 12 2 2 4 0 4 23 8.70

2002-03 Detroit NHL 4 1 0 1 -4 0 10 10.00

Gee, only 5 points in 16 playoff games his first 2 seasons. Only 3 goals.

Lidstrom?

1993-94 Detroit NHL 7 3 2 5 +4 0 20 15.00

1992-93 Detroit NHL 7 1 0 1 -2 0 8 12.50

1991-92 Detroit NHL 11 1 2 3 -5 0 16 6.25

His is a little better, in 25 games he got 9 points. Not bad for a defenseman.

Point is that it seems that players need some time to adapt to what playoff hockey is like. Like Malkin struggled after the first two rounds last season. This coming season he will be even better when the playoffs roll around. Some players and coaches think the playoff slump happens more to rookies and newer players to the NHL because of the regular season 82 game grind. Most other seasons in college and overseas are half that if not less. I am sure there are other reasons that people can come up with.

Hossa had a great playoffs last season. Its my hope that he will have another good playoff performance this coming season too.

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Guest Crymson

Good grief. Some of you never cease to amaze me with your negativity. Be happy that we got the guy, for goodness`sake, instead of moaning about how he's not as good as some player or another.

"OMG Hossa is great!"

"Yeah, sure. He's way overrated."

Guess what? Hossa was a one-man team on the Thrashers. He had no help on the line he played on. He's a pretty damned good player. Nobody yet knows what he can do now that he's in his prime if he has very good linemates for an entire season.

Sigh.

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Good grief. Some of you never cease to amaze me with your negativity. Be happy that we got the guy, for goodness`sake, instead of moaning about how he's not as good as some player or another.

"OMG Hossa is great!"

"Yeah, sure. He's way overrated."

Guess what? Hossa was a one-man team on the Thrashers. He had no help on the line he played on. He's a pretty damned good player. Nobody yet knows what he can do now that he's in his prime if he has very good linemates for an entire season.

Sigh.

How dare you take a level headed approach to this issue! HOW DARE YOU SIR!

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Seriously dude, people bring up Kovi in top 10 players in the game, how often do you hear Hossa's name brought up in that conversation.

I don't think either of them comes up too much in that conversation. Depending on whether you value overall play or pure goal scoring more, they are usually in the top 15.

1) Crosby

2) Ovechkin

3) Thornton

4) Zetterberg

5) Datsyuk

6) Iginla

7) Malkin

8) LeCavalier

9) Heatley

10) Alfredsson

Vying to round out the top ten and at a comparable level to Heatley and Alfredsson you have:

Hossa

Kovalchuk

Spezza

St. Louis

M. Richards

Jagr

Sundin

Staal

Savard

Gaborik

B. Richards

I would have them at the top of this list, but just outside of the top ten.

Edited by egroen

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Good grief. Some of you never cease to amaze me with your negativity. Be happy that we got the guy, for goodness`sake, instead of moaning about how he's not as good as some player or another.

"OMG Hossa is great!"

"Yeah, sure. He's way overrated."

Guess what? Hossa was a one-man team on the Thrashers. He had no help on the line he played on. He's a pretty damned good player. Nobody yet knows what he can do now that he's in his prime if he has very good linemates for an entire season.

Sigh.

Can I ask you were anyone said they didn't want him on the team, or where anyone was suggesting that there was a better player available. No one even said he wouldn't be great on this team, we were discussing his past, you know as in what happened before now, none of use were discussing the future, the things yet to happen.

I made a comment (that was wrong at the time) that contradicted someone's opinion, then some of us debated that topic.

What exactly did your last comment add to the previous discussion or the one we were having?

You don't like the direction of the conversation, oh well, it wasn't like the other day when I derailed a thread with insults (sorry about that BTW), this was a hockey discussion about the player the thread was made about.

Where is the problem, it lies in the fact you don't like the fact that we were talking negatively about a player on the roster, who happens to be an all world talent which none of us Denied.

Again, where is the problem?

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egroen,

You and I will disagree on the top 10 a little bit (which is fine not arguing just backing up my other statement)

1) Ovechkin

2) Crosby

3) Thornton

4) Zetterberg

5) Datsyuk

6) Iginla

7) Malkin

8) LeCavalier

9) Heatley

10) Kovalchuk

Now after this year that list could look miles different but that is to be said with any top 10 list for any sport where we are talking current players.

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Guest Crymson
How dare you take a level headed approach to this issue! HOW DARE YOU SIR!

You're right! I should be executed for heresy.

I can't believe people are actually involving themselves in arguing that Hossa is 'not that good.'

Edited by Crymson

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You and I will disagree on the top 10 a little bit (which is fine not arguing just backing up my other statement)

I can see how you arrived at that list --

1,2 are one level

3-8 another

And then there are a bunch of players in the next grouping -- I can see a lot of reasons to put a lot of different guys at the top of that third grouping, Hossa and Kovalchuk for sure -- though I like Hossa's (and Alfredsson's) overall game better the Kovalchuk who is awfully one-dimensional.

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