Chelios, Downey, McCarty, and Quincey

[norrisnick 1]

I guess some of you guys are actually convinced that if the Wings got into more fights, we wouldn't have as much success. Several of you have argued that point or danced around it in some way.

I can't agree that there's any correlation there. If Downey had 35 fights last year, we would have finished middle of the pack in fights, and would still have won the Cup.

I don't see the Wings system taking any hits if there's more fights.

Downey only played because we had people hurt near the bottom of our lineup. Downey doesn't play or fight if we stay healthy. If we're healthy we're a better team.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I guess some of you guys are actually convinced that if the Wings got into more fights, we wouldn't have as much success. Several of you have argued that point or danced around it in some way.

I can't agree that there's any correlation there. If Downey had 35 fights last year, we would have finished middle of the pack in fights, and would still have won the Cup.

I don't see the Wings system taking any hits if there's more fights.

I don't see the reason you push for enforcers so hard when you can't correlate them being on the team and the team's success.

You seem convinced that if the Wings don't have an enforcer, we wouldn't have as much success.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't see the reason you push for enforcers so hard when you can't correlate them being on the team and the team's success.

You seem convinced that if the Wings don't have an enforcer, we wouldn't have as much success.

I never said that. I believe we would still have success on the scoreboard, but I still personally don't like seeing our guys get run at knowing that no one will back them up. And I'm not content with guys like Datsyuk or Stuart doing any of the fighting either.

There's more to pride than winning on the scoreboard.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I never said that. I believe we would still have success on the scoreboard, but I still personally don't like seeing our guys get run at knowing that no one will back them up. And I'm not content with guys like Datsyuk or Stuart doing any of the fighting either.

There's more to pride than winning on the scoreboard.

Personally, our smaller guys seem to have a better awareness of their surroundings than the bigger guys. I'm not really worried, but I enjoy one enforcer because I loved the gritty style from the 90s with guys like Kocur and McCarty and Shanahan among others.

[norrisnick 1]

I never said that. I believe we would still have success on the scoreboard, but I still personally don't like seeing our guys get run at knowing that no one will back them up. And I'm not content with guys like Datsyuk or Stuart doing any of the fighting either.

There's more to pride than winning on the scoreboard.

That's 100% true. Though the more is not fighting when you feel slighted. It's playing the game honorably, by the rules, and respecting your opponent.

Losing the game but winning a fight shouldn't fill you with pride. Quite the opposite in fact.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

That's 100% true. Though the more is not fighting when you feel slighted. It's playing the game honorably, by the rules, and respecting your opponent.

Losing the game but winning a fight shouldn't fill you with pride. Quite the opposite in fact.

How about winning the game and at the same time having someone there who's job is to stand up for guys. What would that take away from the team? In my opinion, nothing.

If a team is trying to goon it up, that's part of hockey. It always has been and will be until fighting is completely taken out of the game. Fighting back is not dishonorable, despite what you might be suggesting.

[norrisnick 1]

How about winning the game and at the same time having someone there who's job is to stand up for guys. What would that take away from the team? In my opinion, nothing.

If a team is trying to goon it up, that's part of hockey. It always has been and will be until fighting is completely taken out of the game. Fighting back is not dishonorable, despite what you might be suggesting.

That's fine. Find someone that's a better hockey player than the non-fighters we have now. I don't give a s*** if someone is willing to fight so long as he can play the game of hockey.

Neither is not fighting back no matter how much you want it to be.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

That's fine. Find someone that's a better hockey player than the non-fighters we have now. I don't give a s*** if someone is willing to fight so long as he can play the game of hockey.

Neither is not fighting back no matter how much you want it to be.

Teams need balance. We have enough skill as it is to be able to afford an untalented goon. Case in point, look at Downey last year when he played around 50 games, and the team was no worse off from the fact that he couldn't score.

Also, don't forget that McCarty didn't exactly put up huge numbers in the playoffs, yet he played in most of the games. What did that hurt? Nothing, we still won the Cup.

The 4th line is supposed to be for grit and toughness. If one guy on the 4th line isn't scoring, it's not going to make the team that much worse. It isn't an enforcer's job. If it was otherwise, no team in the league would dress enforcers.

[uk_redwing 495]

You seem convinced that if the Wings don't have an enforcer, we wouldn't have as much success.

Well seeing as we have never won a Stanley Cup without one...

[norrisnick 1]

Teams need balance. We have enough skill as it is to be able to afford an untalented goon. Case in point, look at Downey last year when he played around 50 games, and the team was no worse off from the fact that he couldn't score.

Also, don't forget that McCarty didn't exactly put up huge numbers in the playoffs, yet he played in most of the games. What did that hurt? Nothing, we still won the Cup.

The 4th line is supposed to be for grit and toughness. If one guy on the 4th line isn't scoring, it's not going to make the team that much worse. It isn't an enforcer's job. If it was otherwise, no team in the league would dress enforcers.

The balance needed is between offensive and defensive skill. Too much skill is a ridiculous concept.

McCarty was in the running with Chelios as the 2nd biggest detriment in our Cup run (Dom was #1 in a rout). If we had more offensively/defensively skilled players he wouldn't have been on the ice and we'd be a better team (read that as Kopecky being healthy).

The 4th line is supposed to avoid being a liabilty at all costs and sometimes pitch in with some offense or a great defensive shift if possible. Nowhere is it writ that you need a fighter on the 4th line.

[norrisnick 1]

Well seeing as we have never won a Stanley Cup without one...

McCarty couldn't enforce a kindergarten at this point. We had no enforcer in our most recent Cup run.

[uk_redwing 495]

McCarty couldn't enforce a kindergarten at this point. We had no enforcer in our most recent Cup run.

Wouldnt you count the regular season as part of the cup run?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The balance needed is between offensive and defensive skill. Too much skill is a ridiculous concept.

McCarty was in the running with Chelios as the 2nd biggest detriment in our Cup run (Dom was #1 in a rout). If we had more offensively/defensively skilled players he wouldn't have been on the ice and we'd be a better team (read that as Kopecky being healthy).

The 4th line is supposed to avoid being a liabilty at all costs and sometimes pitch in with some offense or a great defensive shift if possible. Nowhere is it writ that you need a fighter on the 4th line.

Now you're making things up. McCarty was not a huge liability to the team in any way. He wasn't a huge help, but judging from past history, Kopecky wouldn't have done better.

And how would we have done better than winning the Cup. Could we have gone undefeated in the playoffs if not for Mac?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Wouldnt you count the regular season as part of the cup run?

Didn't you hear? If not for Downey and McCarty, we would have gone 98-0 this season.

Norrisnick is starting to crack me up with his theories on enforcers.

[norrisnick 1]

Wouldnt you count the regular season as part of the cup run?

Only if you start praising the glories of our enforcer-less domination of the regular season in '05-'06.

We've owned the regular season for a long long time. With or without enforcers. Downey had no impact one way or the other.

[norrisnick 1]

Now you're making things up. McCarty was not a huge liability to the team in any way. He wasn't a huge help, but judging from past history, Kopecky wouldn't have done better.

And how would we have done better than winning the Cup. Could we have gone undefeated in the playoffs if not for Mac?

McCarty was being beaten to loose pucks and to areas he should have been to receive pucks all playoffs long. The 4th line was unable to get out of our own end whenever he needed to be part of the breakout. You don't remember that 2 and a half minute shift where Mac iced the puck twice before they got scored on? He can't keep up with the play anymore. He hasn't been able to for over 5 years now.

Doubt it. The 3rd pairing was pretty weak as well.

[Dabura 12,232]

I'm going to make this as simple as I can.

- The Wings just won the Cup.

- Downey played in the regular season, but only because the team was injured.

- Beyond "boosting morale," he didn't make a huge impact. Proof: he was rewarded with exactly 0 minutes of postseason playing time.

- For the playoffs, McCarty essentially took his spot -- not because "he's a better enforcer," but because he's a better all-around player. Proof: McCarty "enforced" only once, which is not surprising considering 1. He holds no weight as an enforcer these days, and 2. He wasn't being used in an enforcing capacity.

- Logical extension: had Babs wanted MORE FIGHTS!1, he would have just dressed Downey, who could have easily racked up 8-10 fights versus Mac's 1. The fact that Babs dressed Mac over Downey means that Mac offers something Downey doesn't, and that Babs puts stock in it.

- No poor, defenseless Wings were mauled at any point in the run.

So tell me, where is the "need" for more fighting?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I'm going to make this as simple as I can.

- The Wings just won the Cup.

- Downey played in the regular season, but only because the team was injured.

- Beyond "boosting morale," he didn't make a huge impact. Proof: he was rewarded with exactly 0 minutes of postseason playing time.

- For the playoffs, McCarty essentially took his spot -- not because "he's a better enforcer," but because he's a better all-around player. Proof: McCarty "enforced" only once, which is not surprising considering 1. He holds no weight as an enforcer these days, and 2. He wasn't being used in an enforcing capacity.

- Logical extension: had Babs wanted MORE FIGHTS!1, he would have just dressed Downey, who could have easily racked up 8-10 fights versus Mac's 1. The fact that Babs dressed Mac over Downey means that Mac offers something Downey doesn't, and that Babs puts stock in it.

- No poor, defenseless Wings were mauled at any point in the run.

So tell me, where is the "need" for more fighting?

There is no need for more fighting. In fact, according to norrisnick, Downey and McCarty held the team back last year from going to where it wanted to go. You can figure out for yourself where that might be.

Oh but I forgot, you're not anti-enforcer so there's no need to argue with you.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

WE NEED MORE TOUGHNESS

WE NEED MORE GRIT

WE NEED MORE FIGHTING

WE NEED MORE ENFORCERS

Now please complain about what i said with your same reasonings for another 8 pages.

[miller76 463]

WE NEED MORE TOUGHNESS

WE NEED MORE GRIT

WE NEED MORE FIGHTING

WE NEED MORE ENFORCERS

Now please complain about what i said with your same reasonings for another 8 pages.

you honestly believe all that excessive grit, fighting, and enforcers is what this team needs? I thought the team faired pretty well with the style they played with Downey in while playing teams with certain individuals that enjoyed cheap shotting talent. and then a healthy scratch when there isn't a viable threat.

Remember were talking Detroit hockey here, not thug hockey like that avatar you advertise.

[norrisnick 1]

There is no need for more fighting. In fact, according to norrisnick, Downey and McCarty held the team back last year from going to where it wanted to go. You can figure out for yourself where that might be.

Oh but I forgot, you're not anti-enforcer so there's no need to argue with you.

They were the 14th and 15th forward for us. Them playing meant better players were hurt. We were the best team even though they played. That doesn't mean we couldn't have been better.

Teams should always strive to improve even when they're at the top, otherwise they won't be at the top for long.

You're pro-enforcer. Apparently making me anti-enforcer. I'm pro-hockey player. Does that make you anti-hockey player?

[Spinner 6]

WE NEED MORE TOUGHNESS

WE NEED MORE GRIT

WE NEED MORE FIGHTING

WE NEED MORE ENFORCERS

Now please complain about what i said with your same reasonings for another 8 pages.

We could maybe use a little more toughness but if you would have told me 3 years ago that Datsyuk would lead the team in hits during the playoffs, I would have asked for a sample of the medication you were on.

More grit? I think we had plenty during the playoffs. I think we sandbagged a little during the regular season to save on the injuries, but that's just my opinion but we surprised a lot of people in the playoffs when we didn't back down from the hits.

I like a good fight as much as anyone but we don't need them to win

I do like having an enforcer. Not much is more exciting than someone coming off the bench specifically to go kick the azz of someone like Pronger after making a dirty hit. Gets me out of my seat every time.

Not complaining about what you said, just stating my opinion

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

They were the 14th and 15th forward for us. Them playing meant better players were hurt. We were the best team even though they played. That doesn't mean we couldn't have been better.

Teams should always strive to improve even when they're at the top, otherwise they won't be at the top for long.

You're pro-enforcer. Apparently making me anti-enforcer. I'm pro-hockey player. Does that make you anti-hockey player?

If you pro-hockey player, you wouldn't talk about enforcers as if they're not even part of the team. I guarantee you the guys in the locker room didn't think of Downey or Mac in that kind of fashion.

Character guys are important to every team, or else skilled players would have to fill in those roles. You either don't know much about hockey, or you've been watching some European league for too damn long.

In brief, enforcers are hockey players. That's what their profession is whether you like it or not.

[evil204 4]

You guys seem to think that just because we won the Cup this year without an enforcer, it means we don't need one at all. Did you forget that we lost for 4 years because of a lack of toughness and grit?

We didn't have to play against the big, tough teams in this year's playoffs. We didn't face Anaheim or San Jose. If we did, I bet things would be different. I know I'd want Downey in there to take out Pronger after he elbows Datsyuk in the face. I'd want him in there to fight and give us some energy when we're down by 1 or 2 goals.

Other than Nashville, our playoff opponents this year tried to play a skilled game against us, so we didn't need that tough guy in the line-up. But that doesn't mean we don't need one at all. So we should definitely sign Downey, or someone like him, and he may not play every game, but he'll be ready when we need him.

[Herr Hockey 0]

You guys seem to think that just because we won the Cup this year without an enforcer, it means we don't need one at all. Did you forget that we lost for 4 years because of a lack of toughness and grit?

We didn't have to play against the big, tough teams in this year's playoffs. We didn't face Anaheim or San Jose. If we did, I bet things would be different. I know I'd want Downey in there to take out Pronger after he elbows Datsyuk in the face. I'd want him in there to fight and give us some energy when we're down by 1 or 2 goals.

Other than Nashville, our playoff opponents this year tried to play a skilled game against us, so we didn't need that tough guy in the line-up. But that doesn't mean we don't need one at all. So we should definitely sign Downey, or someone like him, and he may not play every game, but he'll be ready when we need him.

Three. Last year had nothing to do with toughness and grit. Not even in the slightest. Unless if by a lack of toughness and grit you mean Nick Lidstroms stick being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Herr Hockey