Chelios, Downey, McCarty, and Quincey

[uk_redwing 495]

Greedy? If re-signing Filppula for five years means losing Downey and/or Mac, then so be it. That "no protection" garbage is nonsense. The Red Wings have proven two years in a row they are more than tough enough, and they don't shy away from any opponent team or player. How much winning do the Red Wings have to do to shed the "too soft" crap?

I didnt realise we won the Stanley Cup last year aswell...damn have I been living under a rock or what?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I didnt realise we won the Stanley Cup last year aswell...damn have I been living under a rock or what?

They didn't win the last two years, but what he/she was referring to 2 seasons ago that Detroit was perceived to just get the snot beat out of them "physically" by "physical" teams in Calgary, San Jose, and Anaheim in the playoffs. Even though they lost in the WCF 2 seasons ago, that perception proved to be a myth in the grand scheme of things.

[Shutemdown 23]

They didn't win the last two years, but what he/she was referring to 2 seasons ago that Detroit was perceived to just get the snot beat out of them "physically" by "physical" teams in Calgary, San Jose, and Anaheim in the playoffs. Even though they lost in the WCF 2 seasons ago, that perception proved to be a myth in the grand scheme of things.

Regardless, I think it would make people feel more comfortable if the team had SOMEONE to stick up for teammates. Remember in the playoffs when Z took a cheap shot and Datsyuk literally skated in and started swinging?

Yeah, great to see that Datsyuk is throwing more checks and sticking up for teammates, whilst being A.) A little bit smaller than some, B.) A superstar of the team, and C.) The Lady Byng winner... but the reality is, we can't have Datsyuk out there doing all of our dirty work.

We need SOMEONE, not because our guys are getting roughed up too much or pushed around, but to ensure that it DOESN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

I, for one, would love another season where our team stays healthy and remains injury-free... but one of the steps necessary to make that happen is keeping our stars safe.

[Opie 308]

Regardless, I think it would make people feel more comfortable if the team had SOMEONE to stick up for teammates. Remember in the playoffs when Z took a cheap shot and Datsyuk literally skated in and started swinging?

Yeah, great to see that Datsyuk is throwing more checks and sticking up for teammates, whilst being A.) A little bit smaller than some, B.) A superstar of the team, and C.) The Lady Byng winner... but the reality is, we can't have Datsyuk out there doing all of our dirty work.

We need SOMEONE, not because our guys are getting roughed up too much or pushed around, but to ensure that it DOESN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

I, for one, would love another season where our team stays healthy and remains injury-free... but one of the steps necessary to make that happen is keeping our stars safe.

Just to let you know having an enforcer stops nothing, if a guy is going to take a run at or cheapshot Hank, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the player will take the run/cheapshot and then fight.

An enforcer may get retribution for you, but what is going to stop Kyle Maclaren from running at Z if he wants to? Downey, Mac, Downie, Neil, who? I know the answer, no one will. If a guy is willing to cheapshot or take a run at another player, odds are he has done it before and knows that the consequence is getting into a fight or getting hit hard. That won't stop these guys.

BTW: When was the last time a Red Wing player was run, or the last time you remember some one taking a cheap shot at a Red Wing player?

[ilmickeyli 40]

Just to let you know having an enforcer stops nothing, if a guy is going to take a run at or cheapshot Hank, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the player will take the run/cheapshot and then fight.

An enforcer may get retribution for you, but what is going to stop Kyle Maclaren from running at Z if he wants to? Downey, Mac, Downie, Neil, who? I know the answer, no one will. If a guy is willing to cheapshot or take a run at another player, odds are he has done it before and knows that the consequence is getting into a fight or getting hit hard. That won't stop these guys.

BTW: When was the last time a Red Wing player was run, or the last time you remember some one taking a cheap shot at a Red Wing player?

When Lids was hit and injured. (not really RUN at per-say.. but you dont hit him)

Downey dealt with it.

[Opie 308]

When Lids was hit and injured. (not really RUN at per-say.. but you dont hit him)

Downey dealt with it.

Thanks for making my point, Downey was in the lineup and it stopped what exactly?

NOTHING!

Lappy still hit (imo a clean hit) Lids hard and a little high (maybe), McLaren still went after Z, the enforcer stops nothing, much like cops don't stop criminals. They deal out punishment for actions. Some players may not take a run at a guy in fear of getting their teeth knocked in, but those guys usually aren't the ones dealing out cheap/dirty hits.

[Dabura 12,207]

We need SOMEONE, not because our guys are getting roughed up too much or pushed around, but to ensure that it DOESN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

As Opie has said, dressing Aaron Downey will not ensure that our guys won't get roughed up. Now, maybe if we had, say, Probie, the opposition would think twice before trying anything. But as it stands, if the Wings dress a guy like Downey, his job is to respond to liberties taken with his team mates, not to completely deter them -- as that's entirely unrealistic.

But really, the fact that Kenny's more concerned about re-signing Chelios than he is Mac or Downey should tell you something about how important enforcers are to this team. (Hint: not very.) And for good reason: this team proved it can handle itself in the postseason without the aid of an enforcer. If the Wings sign/re-sign an enforcer, he'll probably just be along for the ride in the regular season, a la Downey last season.

[ilmickeyli 40]

Thanks for making my point, Downey was in the lineup and it stopped what exactly?

NOTHING!

Lappy still hit (imo a clean hit) Lids hard and a little high (maybe), McLaren still went after Z, the enforcer stops nothing, much like cops don't stop criminals. They deal out punishment for actions. Some players may not take a run at a guy in fear of getting their teeth knocked in, but those guys usually aren't the ones dealing out cheap/dirty hits.

i am pleased with the roster, and already acknowledge and have accepted that we will not have an ENFORCER... GASP.. ZOMG!

chill out there, chief

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Greedy? If re-signing Filppula for five years means losing Downey and/or Mac, then so be it. That "no protection" garbage is nonsense. The Red Wings have proven two years in a row they are more than tough enough, and they don't shy away from any opponent team or player. How much winning do the Red Wings have to do to shed the "too soft" crap?

I guess you missed the Philly and Calgary games two years ago. No one stood up for anybody in those games. If some team does decide to rough it up next year, we're going to look pretty pathetic with Datsyuk and Franzen doing the fighting for their teammates. That's not their job nor should it be.

Just to let you know having an enforcer stops nothing, if a guy is going to take a run at or cheapshot Hank, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the player will take the run/cheapshot and then fight.

An enforcer may get retribution for you, but what is going to stop Kyle Maclaren from running at Z if he wants to? Downey, Mac, Downie, Neil, who? I know the answer, no one will. If a guy is willing to cheapshot or take a run at another player, odds are he has done it before and knows that the consequence is getting into a fight or getting hit hard. That won't stop these guys.

BTW: When was the last time a Red Wing player was run, or the last time you remember some one taking a cheap shot at a Red Wing player?

Malone kept running Zetterberg in the Finals. Or did you forget that already?

BTW, what's wrong with retribution?

[Guest micah]

As Opie has said, dressing Aaron Downey will not ensure that our guys won't get roughed up. Now, maybe if we had, say, Probie, the opposition would think twice before trying anything. But as it stands, if the Wings dress a guy like Downey, his job is to respond to liberties taken with his team mates, not to completely deter them -- as that's entirely unrealistic.

What are you talking about? People took all sorts of liberties with our guys, Probert didn't prevent that stuff. He prevented it from happening twice. That's a little more realistic expectation to have of an enforcer, and I think aaron Downey is plenty capable of that job. He'll fight and do well against any agitator who tries something ungentlemanly with our other players, and he's tough enough to hang in there if even an elite goon on another team just has to find a wing to fight. He's also very disiplined and doesn't take half the stupid penalties that most toughguys do.

[Dabura 12,207]

I didn't mean to imply that Probert prevented s*** from happening. My point was more that we would need an enforcer of considerably greater clout (than Downey) before we could even begin to talk about preemptive deterrence ("Whoa s***! They dressed ___! Maybe I'll think twice before trying s***!") And even then, like you said, Probert couldn't even instill that kind of fear in people. Not consistently, at least. The point in all this being, enforcers respond, they don't preemptive strike.

GMR, you have to be careful with retribution. If someone goes way out of line, you know they'll be taken to task (see Roberts). The trick is knowing when it's not in your team's best interest to respond. For example, you cited Malone -- the Wings were right to mostly ignore his s***, as they knew exactly what he was doing (trying to rattle the Wings, looking for a PP opp.), and that by not giving him what he wanted (a show of frustration, stupid penalties, etc.), they were winning that battle, forcing him (one of the Pens' supposed offensive weapons) into playing the part of a half-assed agitator instead of a focused goal-scorer. The Wings aren't in the business of saying, "Oh look, ___ is giving Hank a hard time. Let's pound him" because they're smart -- in this case, smart in the way they pick their battles.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I didn't mean to imply that Probert prevented s*** from happening. My point was more that we would need an enforcer of considerably greater clout (than Downey) before we could even begin to talk about preemptive deterrence ("Whoa s***! They dressed ___! Maybe I'll think twice before trying s***!") And even then, like you said, Probert couldn't even instill that kind of fear in people. Not consistently, at least. The point in all this being, enforcers respond, they don't preemptive strike.

GMR, you have to be careful with retribution. If someone goes way out of line, you know they'll be taken to task (see Roberts). The trick is knowing when it's not in your team's best interest to respond. For example, you cited Malone -- the Wings were right to mostly ignore his s***, as they knew exactly what he was doing (trying to rattle the Wings, looking for a PP opp.), and that by not giving him what he wanted (a show of frustration, stupid penalties, etc.), they were winning that battle, forcing him (one of the Pens' supposed offensive weapons) into playing the part of a half-assed agitator instead of a focused goal-scorer. The Wings aren't in the business of saying, "Oh look, ___ is giving Hank a hard time. Let's pound him" because they're smart -- in this case, smart in the way they pick their battles.

Of course we have to be careful when to retaliate, but I always think back to game 5 against Calgary in 2007, or game 3 against Anaheim in 2007, and I can't believe we didn't try to retaliate, since both those games were blowouts by that point. Teams don't usually care about the score when they resort to dirty tactics. They're just trying to send a message instead. That's why we have to send them a message in return. I believe someone like Downey is better at sending that message than Franzen or Cleary are. I'd love to have a better enforcer than Downey, but that ship has already sailed.

Also, I wish you guys would stop talking about the Roberts situation. Datsyuk did a good job of standing up for himself, but if the refs hadn't stepped in there, Datsyuk would have been in the hospital for the Cup celebration.

[Opie 308]

I guess you missed the Philly and Calgary games two years ago. No one stood up for anybody in those games. If some team does decide to rough it up next year, we're going to look pretty pathetic with Datsyuk and Franzen doing the fighting for their teammates. That's not their job nor should it be.

Malone kept running Zetterberg in the Finals. Or did you forget that already?

BTW, what's wrong with retribution?

Absolutely nothing at all!!!!!!!!

But the point you and I agreed along time ago about the prevention thing, some one else posted that an enforcer would stop things altogether. That was what that reply was aimed at, not so much your statements

What about the Calgary series or SJ from the playoffs before last, you bring up two games from that year where the team got beat up, I can bring up 2 series against one of the teams you brought up in which the Wings held their own very well even when Calgary resulted to cheapshots and back up goalies spearing people.

And I didn't say anything before because you and I have gone round and round with this, but there was more to the loss against ANA than just them being more physical. Including but not limited to injuries, PP ineffectiveness, and sloppy bad turnovers, mind you the pp was down 1 point men from each unit and the defender that created the turnover is probably not on the ice if either Schieds or Kronwall were healthy. That however is speculation, the only fact you and I have about this conversation is that the Ducks won and the Wings lost. But your post makes it look like you think the injury issues were hogwash and that the toughness of ANA is what won them that series.

BTW: Malone running Z, what did that do to him, he won Conn Smythe, I don't recall hearing a thing about him having any ailments or nagging injuries. He owned the Pens offensively and Defensively, so Malone was running Z in the finals, what good did it do Pit, did it help them beat the wings, answer a resounding NO!!!

Edited August 7, 2008 by Opie

[uk_redwing 495]

Wow, the anti-enforcer lot are starting comparing enforcers to cops. So cops are needless are they? Cops dont do anything? Cops dont stop people breaking the law?

Hell if it didnt put me in prison Id go out and rob every bank I could...but I dont. For numurous reasons, mainly because of the prison thing.

You know which other country has no real police force? Zimbabwe. Yeh. Why havnt all countries followed suit?

[Dabura 12,207]

Teams don't usually care about the score when they resort to dirty tactics. They're just trying to send a message instead. That's why we have to send them a message in return.

The Wings do send a message in those cases: "Start booking your tee times." To fight would be to give the opposition what it wants, which could in turn translate into momentum. To skate away is to completely deny the opposition any kind of victory.

About Roberts -- I think you might be the only one who honestly gives two s***s about how he "got shafted" or whatever. Roberts blindsided Mule (hardly fair); he got in a scrum in which he got the short end of the stick; he didn't blindside anyone the rest of the series. Yeah, he probably would've kicked Datsyuk's ass, but in terms of "sending a message," what really matters at the end of the day is that the guilty party didn't try s*** for the rest of the series. That's the basic goal of enforcing.

[Opie 308]

Wow, the anti-enforcer lot are starting comparing enforcers to cops. So cops are needless are they? Cops dont do anything? Cops dont stop people breaking the law?

Hell if it didnt put me in prison Id go out and rob every bank I could...but I dont. For numurous reasons, mainly because of the prison thing.

You know which other country has no real police force? Zimbabwe. Yeh. Why havnt all countries followed suit?

So because we have cops we also have 0 crime! good logic there. I said cops don't stop criminals not Cops don't stop people from committing crimes, read the whole sentence not the part that you find inflammatory!

What my analogy points out is that people who are going to break the law will break it regardless of cops, much like if some one really wants to two hand a guy across the face being punch in the face is not a Deterrent!!

[skacore 2]

Thanks for making my point, Downey was in the lineup and it stopped what exactly?

NOTHING!

Lappy still hit (imo a clean hit) Lids hard and a little high (maybe), McLaren still went after Z, the enforcer stops nothing, much like cops don't stop criminals. They deal out punishment for actions. Some players may not take a run at a guy in fear of getting their teeth knocked in, but those guys usually aren't the ones dealing out cheap/dirty hits.

What a horrible comparison... do you think the streets would be the same if cops didn't exist? You basically just agreed that enforcers/cops prevent a ton from happening but they still can't stop absolutely everything. How would you be able to tell if having an enforcer prevented an incident? You can't, because it never happened... here, I'll make one up... March 5th against St. Louis, Wings are up 4-1 and on the PP late in the game, instead of Downey being on the ice and Walker, Mayers, and Johnson end up stalking him for about 15 seconds, Hudler is in his place. Mayers takes a big run at Z and knocks him head first into the boards, he's slow to get up. Hudler comes in to push Mayers but Walker grabs a hold of Hudler and pounds him until he's 4'5, every single person on these forums whines for the next week for Mayers' and Walker's head on a silver platter.

There I can make up s*** too..... Downey prevented that!!

[Opie 308]

I didn't make s*** up, Downey was in the lineup when Lappy hit Lids, what did his being in the lineup stop.

There I didn't make s*** up and he didn't stop s***.

My point in the cop analogy is that there are people out there that will commit a crime even when law enforcement (see the similarity there) is in place and may even be in the same location the crime is committed.

For example I speed all of the time, I usually drive about 10mph over the posted limit, I know that means a fine, I know that if I get enough speeding tickets I lose my license, does it stop me from speeding no. Just like Downey didn't stop Lappy.

Please point to me where I said law enforcement or enforcers in hockey were useless, what I said was they won't stop certain people's behavior regardless of the consequences, hence the reason there are full prisons all over America, because law enforcement isn't enough to stop people from doing illegal actions, it just punishes them after the fact, much like an enforcer on the ice!!

[Opie 308]

BTW because you don't like my take on the subject at hand doesn't mean I am anti-enforcer.

I have stated on this board many times since the end of the playoffs Downey is the perfect fighter for this team. My disagreement in this thread is that, pay attention you may have missed it by only reading half of my posts, that enforces deter nothing, they get you retribution. Which I have no problem with, but this board (ask GMR) has been round and round about what exactly will stop a guy like Steve Downie from doing what he does (he has done it in multiple leagues), the answer: nothing, if being kicked out of the league wasn't enough deterrent what makes you think a punch or 10 to the head is going to change his mind!

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

The Wings do send a message in those cases: "Start booking your tee times." To fight would be to give the opposition what it wants, which could in turn translate into momentum. To skate away is to completely deny the opposition any kind of victory.

About Roberts -- I think you might be the only one who honestly gives two s***s about how he "got shafted" or whatever. Roberts blindsided Mule (hardly fair); he got in a scrum in which he got the short end of the stick; he didn't blindside anyone the rest of the series. Yeah, he probably would've kicked Datsyuk's ass, but in terms of "sending a message," what really matters at the end of the day is that the guilty party didn't try s*** for the rest of the series. That's the basic goal of enforcing.

That's not a message. Other teams already know the Wings are skilled. In fact, that's the worst thing we can do, because it's basically like saying, "we won't fight back". That's what I think teams assume about the Wings already. That mindset has to be changed around in my mind.

Also, if it happens in the regular season, which is where fighting usually occurs, the whole "tee time" reference isn't going to work.

[Opie 308]

GMR,

Can we reach another agreement that fighting back and standing up to or for is a different set of criteria?

In my mind when you say fight back I think fists and blood, as opposed to I see standing up for each other or yourself is what the wings do. Defend yourself/teammate in a scrum.

But very rarely do they actually fight another person, that is why I think Downey fits this team perfectly, he doesn't have to be out there every night, yet when he is there he does his job and does what he and the coach (more importantly, for instance you wouldn't want him going Downie on people) want/need him to do. IE: Lappy!

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I didnt realise we won the Stanley Cup last year aswell...damn have I been living under a rock or what?

You missed my point completely. The Red Wings didn't lose to Anaheim because they weren't "tough enough." They lost because Kronwall and Schneider were both out with injuries. If the Red Wings truly weren't tough enough that season they would have just lost to bigger, physical teams in Calgary or San Jose during the first two rounds.

SWF pretty much summed up my point perfectly before-hand.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

GMR,

Can we reach another agreement that fighting back and standing up to or for is a different set of criteria?

In my mind when you say fight back I think fists and blood, as opposed to I see standing up for each other or yourself is what the wings do. Defend yourself/teammate in a scrum.

But very rarely do they actually fight another person, that is why I think Downey fits this team perfectly, he doesn't have to be out there every night, yet when he is there he does his job and does what he and the coach (more importantly, for instance you wouldn't want him going Downie on people) want/need him to do. IE: Lappy!

They are two different things, but defending your teammates in a scrum often results in someone like Datsyuk or Cleary having to fight, and we all know they can't. I'd rather see a fighter do that task instead, which is what they're paid to do.

I'm beginning to think that one of our skilled players has to get hurt in a fight before anyone here starts begging for some more toughness.

All in all, most of LGW is content with guys like Franzen and Cleary doing the fighting. I personally think that's kind of silly, but what can I do.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out next year if we don't bring back Downey.

And can people please stop making excuses about the Anaheim series. We had a chance to win that series but didn't. They outperformed us in the clutch. You all sound like those divealanche fans that were here months ago making excuses about how they only lost due to injuries. I'm sick of hearing that s***.

Edited August 7, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I guess you missed the Philly and Calgary games two years ago. No one stood up for anybody in those games. If some team does decide to rough it up next year, we're going to look pretty pathetic with Datsyuk and Franzen doing the fighting for their teammates. That's not their job nor should it be.

How did that cheap-shotting work out for Philly and Calgary ultimately? If teams want to run at the Red Wings, they are going to. McCarty and Downey are not going to prevent that from happening.

You keep arguing that other teams/players "perceive" the Red Wings as soft and not willing to fight back. Who the hell cares what they think? Have any of those "tough" teams sniffed a fraction of the success that the Red Wings have in the past decade? I don't get why you are so hung up on misconceptions that the media and other teams/players have of the Red Wings. Those big, tough teams clearly don't intimidate or hinder the Red Wings success.

[skacore 2]

I didn't make s*** up, Downey was in the lineup when Lappy hit Lids, what did his being in the lineup stop.

There I didn't make s*** up and he didn't stop s***.

My point in the cop analogy is that there are people out there that will commit a crime even when law enforcement (see the similarity there) is in place and may even be in the same location the crime is committed.

For example I speed all of the time, I usually drive about 10mph over the posted limit, I know that means a fine, I know that if I get enough speeding tickets I lose my license, does it stop me from speeding no. Just like Downey didn't stop Lappy.

Please point to me where I said law enforcement or enforcers in hockey were useless, what I said was they won't stop certain people's behavior regardless of the consequences, hence the reason there are full prisons all over America, because law enforcement isn't enough to stop people from doing illegal actions, it just punishes them after the fact, much like an enforcer on the ice!!

They don't just punish them after the fact, people are aware of the consequences and it changes the way they act... you say you go 10 over the speed limit, so does everyone else, if cops were non-existent you'd see people going 50 over the limit constantly, a drag race at every street light.

Lappy hit Lidstrom with Downey in the line up, yes... but that's probably the only significant incident that happened all year that's worth mentioning, a big change from last year and the year before... The world isn't perfect with cops and the game of hockey isn't perfect with enforcers, but they both help the cause dramatically.