Bertuzzi disobeyed Crawford's orders in Moore attack

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Quote from the article on TSN...

"Just prior to the attack on Moore, Bertuzzi had been on a shift to kill a penalty, had missed the shift change and had remained on the ice for longer than the rest of his line,'' states Crawford's third-party defence.

This seems like a weak argument to where Crawford is trying to cover his rear. Players don't necessarily miss shift changes, but can't always get to the bench cleanly or immediately to make a change.

There is plenty of blame to go around in both Crawford and Bertuzzi and other parties, and I'm just going to leave it at that, as I don't feel like arguing the degree of blame for people or go through these events again. I just want this thing to be over and done with and everybody involved in the incident to be at peace with the decisions and move on so I don't have to hear details about this again.

I don't totally loathe Crawford, I don't totally loathe Bertuzzi or want bad things to happen to them intentionally, I just want thing thing to be over and done with.

Edited August 20, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[betterREDthandead 58]

Baseball. Just because steroids were illegal, they weren't banned from the MLB. Throw a rock at a person's head on purporse, that's intent to injury and a slew of other charges, in baseball, it's a good play.

Just because Fighting is illegal, doesn't mean NHL should ban it.

I'm not talking about legal in the courts sense. As far as what the league allows and what the league doesn't, banned and illegal mean the same thing, as in, an illegal trip.

Fighting is banned, illegal, whatever you want to call it. It is not allowed in the league any more than a good old-fashioned cross-check. The only question, again, is how severe to make the penalty?

[hamip1998 3]

No one really knows for sure except Crawford and Bertuzzi, and even then the truth depends on the source of the information. Wasn't there a full blown investigation of the incident at the time? Wasn't the rest of the coaching staff and players questioned? They have tape of the game and can see who was physically close to the situation. Hockey benches are pretty close confines. Somebody has to know what really went down.

I don't want to derail the direction of the thread, but once again, no matter how much of jerk anyone wants to make Bertuzzi out to be:

1. There is no way he purposely broke Moore's neck.

2. He did intend on injuring Moore to an extent and did jump him from behind.

3. Moore played hockey for most of his life. He knows the stakes. He cheapshotted Naslund. He had to have known that eventually someone would be coming for him. He does have a level of personal responsibility in this situation. He could have squared off with Bertuzzi (who isn't exactly the second coming of Probert), taken his beating, and would probably still be playing hockey today - but he chose not to do so.

4. Yes, this is a litigous society. Moore spent four years at Harvard. He isn't stupid. Fighting in court is a lot easier than fighting on the ice.

These guys are both responsible for their actions and have both suffered because of the incident. The NHL and the Canucks, who are both ultimately responsible for the players on the ice, should pay Moore a nice settlement and everyone should move on.

[vangvace 12]

Bettman and the NHL can install the safety nets, which was reactionary. Yet they haven't banned fighting yet. What gives? More hypocrisy from the duplicitious one.

[vangvace 12]

Man, that is one kick ass avatar, Vangvace

ty. something about it just cracks me up.

[eva unit zero 271]

No one really knows for sure except Crawford and Bertuzzi, and even then the truth depends on the source of the information. Wasn't there a full blown investigation of the incident at the time? Wasn't the rest of the coaching staff and players questioned? They have tape of the game and can see who was physically close to the situation. Hockey benches are pretty close confines. Somebody has to know what really went down.

I don't want to derail the direction of the thread, but once again, no matter how much of jerk anyone wants to make Bertuzzi out to be:

1. There is no way he purposely broke Moore's neck.

No, he didn't go out there thinking "I'm gonna break that mother f*****'s neck." because that would have required him to have been thinking at all.

2. He did intend on injuring Moore to an extent and did jump him from behind.

3. Moore played hockey for most of his life. He knows the stakes. He cheapshotted Naslund. He had to have known that eventually someone would be coming for him. He does have a level of personal responsibility in this situation. He could have squared off with Bertuzzi (who isn't exactly the second coming of Probert), taken his beating, and would probably still be playing hockey today - but he chose not to do so.

4. Yes, this is a litigous society. Moore spent four years at Harvard. He isn't stupid. Fighting in court is a lot easier than fighting on the ice.

Moore did not cheap shot Naslund. The hit on Naslund was clean. Just because Naslund was injured due to contact does not mean the hit was dirty. Anyone who thinks that Hit+Injury=Dirty should go watch soccer because hockey is not the sport for you if that's your thought process.

Moore didn't fight Bertuzzi because he was trying to win a hockey game, and his team had the puck and was moving up ice with a scoring chance. He was trying to join the play when Bertuzzi jumped on his back.

Moore had already fought Matt Cooke earlier in the night and everyone had moved on except Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi was the only player on either side who felt Moore hadn't paid his price for hitting Naslund. That's what you don't get. It's not like Cooke ran and hid when he was challenged; he had already fought a Canuck player toe-to-toe, face-to-face. The two teams had moved on. Bertuzzi is the one who is at fault, not Moore.

These guys are both responsible for their actions and have both suffered because of the incident. The NHL and the Canucks, who are both ultimately responsible for the players on the ice, should pay Moore a nice settlement and everyone should move on.

The NHL is not responsible for the conduct of Bertuzzi towards Moore. The Canucks could be held responsible, however if it is true and can be shown on video that Bertuzzi ignored Crawford's instruction for a shift change (such as things like other players on his line leaving the ice and Crawford yelling at him to change, but him not changing) then it is possible the Canucks could be relieved of that liability and Bertuzzi held solely responsible as it would be Bertuzzi ignoring the instructions of his coach with intent to injure Moore. Presumably, had he gotten off the ice when instructed, the incident never occurs, so it's a pretty major issue as far as liability is concerned.

If there is no clear evidence that the Canucks did not intend for Bertuzzi to be on the ice with Moore, then the Canucks can be held legally responsible for his actions just as a pizza company can be held responsible if their driver is speeding, and hits and kills someone while making deliveries.

[therock48880 14]

Bettman and the NHL can install the safety nets, which was reactionary. Yet they haven't banned fighting yet. What gives? More hypocrisy from the duplicitious one.

This makes no sense since Moore wasn't injured in a fight. He was injured by a cheapshot that would have happened whether fighting was "banned" or not.

[hamip1998 3]

No, he didn't go out there thinking "I'm gonna break that mother f*****'s neck." because that would have required him to have been thinking at all.

Moore did not cheap shot Naslund. The hit on Naslund was clean. Just because Naslund was injured due to contact does not mean the hit was dirty. Anyone who thinks that Hit+Injury=Dirty should go watch soccer because hockey is not the sport for you if that's your thought process.

Moore didn't fight Bertuzzi because he was trying to win a hockey game, and his team had the puck and was moving up ice with a scoring chance. He was trying to join the play when Bertuzzi jumped on his back.

Moore had already fought Matt Cooke earlier in the night and everyone had moved on except Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi was the only player on either side who felt Moore hadn't paid his price for hitting Naslund. That's what you don't get. It's not like Cooke ran and hid when he was challenged; he had already fought a Canuck player toe-to-toe, face-to-face. The two teams had moved on. Bertuzzi is the one who is at fault, not Moore.

The NHL is not responsible for the conduct of Bertuzzi towards Moore. The Canucks could be held responsible, however if it is true and can be shown on video that Bertuzzi ignored Crawford's instruction for a shift change (such as things like other players on his line leaving the ice and Crawford yelling at him to change, but him not changing) then it is possible the Canucks could be relieved of that liability and Bertuzzi held solely responsible as it would be Bertuzzi ignoring the instructions of his coach with intent to injure Moore. Presumably, had he gotten off the ice when instructed, the incident never occurs, so it's a pretty major issue as far as liability is concerned.

If there is no clear evidence that the Canucks did not intend for Bertuzzi to be on the ice with Moore, then the Canucks can be held legally responsible for his actions just as a pizza company can be held responsible if their driver is speeding, and hits and kills someone while making deliveries.

I haven't looked at the video on the Naslund hit in a while, so I am not going to argue that point with you. The league said the hit wasn't dirty, but obviously the Canuck players thought so or Moore wouldn't have fought Cooke, assuming that the reason they fought was because of the Naslund hit.

No, I don't think Hit + Injury = Dirty. We can argue this all day. The hit on Lidstrom by Lapierre last year, technically and according to the league, was clean also. Questionable, yes, but no fine or suspension came of it. So why did Downey go and take out Lappy? Why? Because you don't rattle another teams star player without getting payback. Moore is a hockey player and knows this. If that is why he and Cooke fought, then yes, that makes Bertuzzi's actions that much more reprehensible.

What Bertuzzi did was clearly wrong and I am not defending his actions. All I was saying is I don't think he went out of his way to break the guys neck, and that it was probably a result of the dogpile that happened after Bertuzzi jumped him (I guess I should have said that before). Lots of people want to make Bertuzzi out to be this remorseless son of ***** who intended on ending Moore's career. We don't really know for sure. I don't think so though. I think he did something stupid and the outcome, while not intended, was certainly unfortunate. That doesn't make him a criminal, that makes him someone who didn't use good judgement. Really, he probably shouldn't have been reinstated. But the NHL, who is responsible for punishing players who break the rules, chose to let Bertuzzi play again.

Steve Moore didn't deserve to have his neck fractured. He knows that hockey is a risky sport and things happen, even incidents that stem from the poor judgement of another player. How bad off is he? Is he in a wheelchair or bedridden and on a ventilator? Can he not find another means of supporting himself financially other than playing hockey? If he was injured to that extent, then he should be taken care of financially and Bertuzzi should have never been allowed to spend another day in the NHL. Should he receive some sort of compensation? Sure. My opinion is that 38 million and possible criminal charges is a bit much.

Bertuzzi IS paying a price for what he did. His career and reputation will always carry the weight of this incident and anything he has done on the ice will be overshadowed by it. He had to have lost money during the suspension and the lockout, and he hasn't been close to the same player that he was before this all went down. He can forget about capitalizing on his career after retirement as well.

My point was that everyone involved has responsibility for their actions, from the rulemakers, to the managers (the Canucks), all the way down to the players. Managers are responsible for their employees. The team and the league should put an end to this incident and everyone should move forward and learn from it.

Edited August 20, 2008 by hamip1998

[auxlepli 17]

This makes no sense since Moore wasn't injured in a fight. He was injured by a cheapshot that would have happened whether fighting was "banned" or not.

You don't know that. There's that whole mentality of fighters that they need to protect the stars. That mentality led to a cheapshot. And it's all condoned in the NHL. If the NHL wanted to get rid of fighting and all that it could.

[akustyk 84]

The NHL is not responsible for the conduct of Bertuzzi towards Moore. The Canucks could be held responsible, however if it is true and can be shown on video that Bertuzzi ignored Crawford's instruction for a shift change (such as things like other players on his line leaving the ice and Crawford yelling at him to change, but him not changing) then it is possible the Canucks could be relieved of that liability and Bertuzzi held solely responsible as it would be Bertuzzi ignoring the instructions of his coach with intent to injure Moore.

the thing is Crawford does not say explicitely "Bertuzzi ignored my orders". he only states that Bertuzzi stayed on the ice longer than what he as a coach would like him to. that's a huge difference. and the big thing here is these guys are pros and they understand to speak precisely in order to not get sued for lying. therefore you may very well much assume Crawford did not order Bertuzzi to get off the ice and he knows perfectly well his ass is not covered in this case.

instead we had Canucks players being reviewed and saying there was atmosphere of head hunting in their locker room prior to the game.

and you have perfect example of Crawfordism in the past - in Claude Lemieux going after Draper. and that's not even the worst of what Crawford is capable to. this guy is a moron and a goon-lover who always crossed the line of fair play.

if anyone it's Crawford who should be sued by Moore for cutting short of his carreer.

I'm not trying to say Bertuzzi is innocent here because he's guilty as hell and also pretty unlucky to have it ended this way. but the main responsibility is on the guy who ignited all this head-hunting and who created the sick atmosphere. and it's Crawford.

[vangvace 12]

You don't know that. There's that whole mentality of fighters that they need to protect the stars. That mentality led to a cheapshot. And it's all condoned in the NHL. If the NHL wanted to get rid of fighting and all that it could.

So cheapshots don't happen in leagues that are treat fighting with stiffer penalties?

This is kinda fun.

[auxlepli 17]

They happen less often in college hockey and Olympic hockey.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Fiction copying reality - on MVP: He Shoots, She Scores they had an incident where the out of control Daman nailed a guy on purpose and broke his neck, but in the soap (worst show in the universe) he had no apologies. Ah, if only Bert and Crawford could stick up the macho crap to that level, "I'm not apologizing for doing my job."

[BlakChamber 8]

They happen less often in college hockey and Olympic hockey.

College hockey has less fighting for a couple reasons. It's an automatic one game suspension, and I'd have to think that mandatory cages/full visors make it tough to fight.

The CCHA at least has had a crackdown on checking from behind lately though.

[C-Dub 0]

Watching the video again makes me wiggle back to my initial stance that Bertuzzi should have never been allowed to wear a NHL jersey again -- ever. This kind of conduct is inexcusable.

[Opie 308]

Watching the video again makes me wiggle back to my initial stance that Bertuzzi should have never been allowed to wear a NHL jersey again -- ever. This kind of conduct is inexcusable.

Its the NHL, Bert came back, McSorely came back, Boulerice will be back (pending Skill), Downie will be back (Pending skill) Simon would have been picked up by some team if he didn't leave for KHL.

The Penalties are never strict enough, just when Simon loses a s*** load of games and people think, well maybe they are getting the hang of this, then it is Pronger who tries to do exactly what Simon did and he has almost the same suspension record, he gets nothing, a slap on the wrist.

I am not sure the NHL will ever get this right, I would rather see guys throw fists every shift they take against each other, 5,6,7,8 times a game every game than I would one stick swing or one skate stomp, but which one is the league making a bigger effort to get rid of? Hmmm interesting!

I say if you are found guilty (for a lack of better term) for something like Stick swinging, stomping, brutal acts of violence it should be a mandatory year first offense and pending review could be a career long suspension. Second offense automatic career suspension.

[C-Dub 0]

I say if you are found guilty (for a lack of better term) for something like Stick swinging, stomping, brutal acts of violence it should be a mandatory year first offense and pending review could be a career long suspension. Second offense automatic career suspension.

I second that. Lay out some ground work, similar to the NFL. The NFL is vague calling it a "personal conduct policy". It comes down to them reviewing it and deciding what is acceptable and what isn't. These instances are easy to spot and should be swiftly dealt with.

[auxlepli 17]

College hockey has less fighting for a couple reasons. It's an automatic one game suspension, and I'd have to think that mandatory cages/full visors make it tough to fight.

The CCHA at least has had a crackdown on checking from behind lately though.

The NHL could have harsher suspensions if wanted. It chooses not to, which leads to incidents like Simon, Bertuzzi and McSorley.

Ultimately if the NHL had harsher suspensions, the refs did their job, or maybe, as some have suggested, 86 the instigator rule, then these incidents wouldn't happen.

[vangvace 12]

They happen less often in college hockey and Olympic hockey.

there's also less games too.

[Opie 308]

there's also less games too.

Semantics, LOL!!

[auxlepli 17]

There are prorbably fewer incidents based on percentage too.

Edited August 22, 2008 by auxlepli

[letsgo13 0]

Ya Crawfords an idiot, but I'm pretty sure he didn't tell Bertuzzi to go break Moores neck. I could be wrong tho.

I don't know a lot about the legal system but feel the lawsuit should stop at Bertuzzi. Yes Moore deserves compensation, but to sue everyone associated with Bertuzzi just seems like a bit much. Kinda like if I fart in an elevator, people will sue me, the people who sold me the food that made me fart, the company I work for, the people who built the elevator and on and on...

But if suing everyone to is required to get just compensation, then sobeit. Sorry to stray from topic....Crawford's an azzhat!

lol What a horrible analogy.

[letsgo13 0]

Its the NHL, Bert came back, McSorely came back, Boulerice will be back (pending Skill), Downie will be back (Pending skill) Simon would have been picked up by some team if he didn't leave for KHL.

The Penalties are never strict enough, just when Simon loses a s*** load of games and people think, well maybe they are getting the hang of this, then it is Pronger who tries to do exactly what Simon did and he has almost the same suspension record, he gets nothing, a slap on the wrist.

I am not sure the NHL will ever get this right, I would rather see guys throw fists every shift they take against each other, 5,6,7,8 times a game every game than I would one stick swing or one skate stomp, but which one is the league making a bigger effort to get rid of? Hmmm interesting!

I say if you are found guilty (for a lack of better term) for something like Stick swinging, stomping, brutal acts of violence it should be a mandatory year first offense and pending review could be a career long suspension. Second offense automatic career suspension.

I feel that Bettman is to blame. If he hadn't taken the fighting out of hockey, players could drop the gloves and calm down instead of hits from behind or sucker punches.