Babcock speaks about line combos

[Heaton 1]

Cleary and Filppula (and Sammy for that matter) are tweeners. Passable 2nd liners in a pinch but great 3rd liners. Their contracts reflect that. If they were bonafide top 6 guys they'd be in the upper $3M to $4M+ range. Once you get to $5M you're getting into top line territory.

I'd have preferred shaving half a million of their contracts but over 5 years they should provide solid value. The one and only problem their contracts present is for next season. We're fine this season and 2 years from now, but next year will be tight. I'd have preferred signing Fil to a 2 year deal in the Loui Eriksson range so we could squeeze next year's payraises in and then bump him up to $3M or so when Nick's contract looks to shrink a bit.

Pretty much spot on. Next year will be tight for sure mainly because Holland is greedy and will want to keep every (rightfully so). He'll want to bring Samuelsson back at a slight raise and of course the big ones. He'll make it work because Hank and 'Stein want to stay here, no one is leaving. Once Hank is re-signed by January and Franzen before or shortly after, all the fears will be washed away.

[eva unit zero 271]

First of all, third line minutes for Filppula will still be around 16 minutes a night and secondly, Holland isn't expecting Filppula to reach his full potential by the end of this season. The front office isn't projecting Filppula to be a career 3rd liner and had Hossa not signed here it'd be Filppula on the 1st line with Datsyuk and Holmstrom.

Flip should see around 15-16 minutes per night, and will likely see a minor increase in scoring output. But he wouldn't have been on the first line had Hossa night signed; without Hossa, we're still watching DZH as the top line and the second line is probably Hudler/Filppula/Franzen rather than Hudler/Zetterberg/Franzen. Draper moves up to center Cleary and Samuelsson, and either the Wings sign a veteran to take Drake's place or give it to one of the kids. Some combination of Maltby/Kopecky/Downey/McCarty/Helm/etc. on the fourth line.

[Heaton 1]

Flip should see around 15-16 minutes per night, and will likely see a minor increase in scoring output. But he wouldn't have been on the first line had Hossa night signed; without Hossa, we're still watching DZH as the top line and the second line is probably Hudler/Filppula/Franzen rather than Hudler/Zetterberg/Franzen. Draper moves up to center Cleary and Samuelsson, and either the Wings sign a veteran to take Drake's place or give it to one of the kids. Some combination of Maltby/Kopecky/Downey/McCarty/Helm/etc. on the fourth line.

Nah, going by Babcock's track record he'd have tried Filppula - Datsyuk - Holmstrom at least to start the season and then when/if it didn't work (again) he'd go back to old faithful. It's Babcock's mission to get them to center their own lines.

[Chunkylover 26]

Nah, going by Babcock's track record he'd have tried Filppula - Datsyuk - Holmstrom at least to start the season and then when/if it didn't work (again) he'd go back to old faithful. It's Babcock's mission to get them to center their own lines.

Exactly. Hossa won't be here next year so we'll go back to our early '07-'08 line configurations.

[norrisnick 1]

Nah, going by Babcock's track record he'd have tried Filppula - Datsyuk - Holmstrom at least to start the season and then when/if it didn't work (again) he'd go back to old faithful. It's Babcock's mission to get them to center their own lines.

That line only came about after Franzen sprained his knee. It was set to be Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom and Hudler - Zetterberg - Samuelsson wasn't it?

[Heaton 1]

That line only came about after Franzen sprained his knee. It was set to be Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom and Hudler - Zetterberg - Samuelsson wasn't it?

It was, but game 5 in against Pittsburgh was enough to give Filppula - Datsyuk - Holmstrom another shot at the beginning of the season.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I guess Filppula being on the third line is okay...

I guess.

[ArcticWing 0]

Flip should see around 15-16 minutes per night, and will likely see a minor increase in scoring output..

Ain't going to happen! First of all do you honestly think guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Hossa would settle for an average ice time much less than 20 minutes? I don't! That leaves us with 15-17 minutes for third and fourth line together. I would guess that third line average would be something like 10-13 minutes, but not even near 16 minutes. Increase in scoring output with scrap minutes and no PP time, seriously just not going to happen.

Cleary and Fil both have bigger cap hits than Zetterberg. Guess Z is a 3rd liner?

Paychecks should never make coaching decisions.

Bad argument!

So what? You said that Flip's paycheck needed to be justified by presence on the second line. Well, let's look at the lines if we just line them up by paycheck, picking the first three forwards, then the next three, and so on:

Filppula/Datsyuk/Hossa

Cleary/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Hudler/Draper/Samuelsson

Maltby/Franzen/Downey

Kopecky

... And another.

Paychecks should make coaching decisions, when signing players. 3mills is twice as much as third line center should make. Three choices a) sign with lower amount b) Give top-6 role, or option c) Let walk, anything else is plain ludicrous. Zetterbergs value to the team has bumped up since he signed his contract and he will get much better contract in future, so will Hudler and Franzen.

I think you all got the point GMRwings1983 had in mind, but still acted childishly (Last two quotes), get real soon.

[norrisnick 1]

Ain't going to happen! First of all do you honestly think guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Hossa would settle for an average ice time much less than 20 minutes? I don't! That leaves us with 15-17 minutes for third and fourth line together. I would guess that third line average would be something like 10-13 minutes, but not even near 16 minutes. Increase in scoring output with scrap minutes and no PP time, seriously just not going to happen.

Special teams TOI says hello. Z and Pavel only got 15 minutes or so of ES ice time a night. Balance is possible and it will come about. If we're in situations when we need to ride our horses for all their worth they'll be up over 25 minutes night but odds are we won't need to.

Bad argument!

... And another.

Paychecks should make coaching decisions, when signing players. 3mills is twice as much as third line center should make. Three choices a) sign with lower amount b) Give top-6 role, or option c) Let walk, anything else is plain ludicrous. Zetterbergs value to the team has bumped up since he signed his contract and he will get much better contract in future, so will Hudler and Franzen.

I think you all got the point GMRwings1983 had in mind, but still acted childishly (Last two quotes), get real soon.

They're perfectly fine arguments. Babcock should NEVER look at paychecks to make decisions for him. That line of thinking would have kept Franzen and Cleary buried on the 4th line with their tiny salaries. That's not smart coaching. You play your best players in the roles that suit them the best so your team is the most successful it can be. Contracts are completely irrelevant for coaches.

Kenny puts together the active roster and Babcock decides who gets to play and how much they play. Period.

[Opie 308]

How does that statement you just wrote make me any different than any other member of LGW?

We're all part of the same hypocrisy, and it's almost impossible for any poster to change any other's mind. Don't single me out for it.

That was my point the poster before me said something about your post not being logical, and I pointed out that logic is a tricky word.

Nothing personal man, I too was just having a little fun in yet another line combo thread.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ain't going to happen! First of all do you honestly think guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Hossa would settle for an average ice time much less than 20 minutes? I don't! That leaves us with 15-17 minutes for third and fourth line together. I would guess that third line average would be something like 10-13 minutes, but not even near 16 minutes. Increase in scoring output with scrap minutes and no PP time, seriously just not going to happen.

You do realize that 15-16 minutes for Filppula is actually a cut in ice time? Cleary and Samuelsson will also likely see a bit of a dip as they will be used less on the top two lines. Draper and Maltby will see a minor decrease as they go from being used as 3rd/4th tweeners to full-time fourth liners due to the overload in top-six caliber forwards. Hank and Dats probably also see a minor decrease. Drake's time plus the majority of the opened up ice time goes to Hossa; Hudler gets some as well. Filppula's increase in scoring output comes from playing with equal quality linemates as he had last season, for about the same amount of time, serving the same purpose but doing it on a lower line. This means he'll be doing everything he did last season with the same support cast against weaker opposition.

Paychecks should make coaching decisions, when signing players. 3mills is twice as much as third line center should make. Three choices a) sign with lower amount b) Give top-6 role, or option c) Let walk, anything else is plain ludicrous. Zetterbergs value to the team has bumped up since he signed his contract and he will get much better contract in future, so will Hudler and Franzen.

I think you all got the point GMRwings1983 had in mind, but still acted childishly (Last two quotes), get real soon.

Childishly? You'll have to explain that because I don't see how saying 'A player's contract doesn't earn him a spot on a top line' is childish.

[Opie 308]

Wasn't it Babs who said, during the SCF, one of the reasons the Wings lost was because he had Dats and Z out there too much and that the guys were trying to hard. The next game he managed their minutes better, they played more within their game, instead of trying so hard, and then the wings won.

The top 2 lines will see almost identical TOI, with the 3rd seeing not quite 2nd line minutes and the 4th line playing a little more than a fourth line would. Lines 1 and 2 will see less than a real 1st would see but more than 2nd line minutes.

This team will be very similar to the 03 team in that the top 2 lines are really 2 number 1s and that the 3rd line is really a number 2 (Weren't Dats, z, and Hull on third line).

[ArcticWing 0]

Childishly? You'll have to explain that because I don't see how saying 'A player's contract doesn't earn him a spot on a top line' is childish.

Last two quotes on my last post, had very immature examples, someone could call it even childish. You didn't honestly think anyone was suggesting on building lines by size of the paycheck? You could have just sad that, salary doesn't justify top-6 spot. Just wanted to get you back on track, no offence meant.

.

Kenny puts together the active roster and Babcock decides who gets to play and how much they play. Period.

Never really questioned that. 3mils for thirdline center is bad management, if something.

Cleary and Fil both have bigger cap hits than Zetterberg. Guess Z is a 3rd liner?

Nothing makes this quote look smart, or even written by an adult.

I don't want a endless debate (pointless) over this.

Edited September 5, 2008 by ArcticWing

[eva unit zero 271]

I don't want a endless debate (pointless) over this.

An endless debate?

GMR said Flip didn't belong on the third line because of his salary. A few people challenged that statement, and you took up the sword over it.

[ArcticWing 0]

GMR said Flip didn't belong on the third line because of his salary. A few people challenged that statement, and you took up the sword over it.

I guess, I got a bit too worked up over the issue. I just felt that, some of the arguments were sub-standard. I apologize.

[Shutemdown 23]

Geez...

It's so fun coming onto these boards and just listening to people bicker over PURE SPECULATION.

Hey, let's wait 2 weeks into the season and see if the lines are still the same! What a novel idea...

But that wouldn't make sense, we should all just argue about them now because they're set in stone and never changing. Pav and Hank will never play on the same line again in their careers and Filpulla is grounded to the 3rd line for the remainder of his newly-signed 5-year contract.

Seriously, guys... I know it's the off-season coming off a SC win, but c'mon... is there any reason to cry about all this bulls*** when there's LITERALLY nothing we can do about it anyways, no one's going to change their opinion, and it's all just relative?

Who knows... Filpulla could be on the second line before preseason's even up. NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA SO STOP CRYING ABOUT IT. Debate it all you want, just don't take it to the next level... we're all fans, this is the entire reason we're all here-- to talk about and debate hockey, primarily the DRW.

Kthx.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Shutemdown

[Shutemdown 23]

I wish Filpulla was playing on the second line. I think he could really come into his own playing alongside Z and Franzen. He seemed to be getting his confidence up in the playoffs last year, I wish he had a chance to play up there. His salary would reflect that of a second line center, as well. (I ONLY said that because everyone's on a salary-binge right now.)

Hudler would still be WELL suited on the third line with Cleary and Sammy... and he'd be playing alongside his same line-mates as last year.

Would it not make more sense to switch Flip and Huds? Flip could play with Zetterberg and Franzen, Hudler with Cleary and Sammy? Makes more sense to me...

[Opie 308]

I wish Filpulla was playing on the second line. I think he could really come into his own playing alongside Z and Franzen. He seemed to be getting his confidence up in the playoffs last year, I wish he had a chance to play up there. His salary would reflect that of a second line center, as well. (I ONLY said that because everyone's on a salary-binge right now.)

Hudler would still be WELL suited on the third line with Cleary and Sammy... and he'd be playing alongside his same line-mates as last year.

Would it not make more sense to switch Flip and Huds? Flip could play with Zetterberg and Franzen, Hudler with Cleary and Sammy? Makes more sense to me...

The only problem with that move is that leaves line 3 with no real bona fide center. So maybe the switch code send Huds back to line 4 and put Draper on line 3.

I am sure at some point in time that situation would happen.

These lines could be different every game and still dominate.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Well, at least no one had a problem with me putting Lija and Downey as the two wingers in my hypothecial lineup.

There's been too many flame wars and near flame wars about pointless stuff even before the season begins. It's not like these lines are going to stay together all year. We all know there will be injuries, and some guys will step up while others will drop off. No one knows what the lines will look like before the playoffs begin.

My argument about Flip is still a good argument in my opinion. There's no reason he should have been signed to such a large contract unless he's expected to be a top 6 forward. If he's not a top 6 forward, we should have either paid him less, or if he complained, let him go since he obviously appears expendable.

This will be even more problematic since guys like Hank and Mule will want more money in the future. We don't want to end up with salary problems like the Ducks had.

[Heaton 1]

Well, at least no one had a problem with me putting Lija and Downey as the two wingers in my hypothecial lineup.

There's been too many flame wars and near flame wars about pointless stuff even before the season begins. It's not like these lines are going to stay together all year. We all know there will be injuries, and some guys will step up while others will drop off. No one knows what the lines will look like before the playoffs begin.

My argument about Flip is still a good argument in my opinion. There's no reason he should have been signed to such a large contract unless he's expected to be a top 6 forward. If he's not a top 6 forward, we should have either paid him less, or if he complained, let him go since he obviously appears expendable.

This will be even more problematic since guys like Hank and Mule will want more money in the future. We don't want to end up with salary problems like the Ducks had.

He is expected to be a top 6 forward (just like he was last year) he just won't be next season to start.

[Superman54 91]

Geez...

It's so fun coming onto these boards and just listening to people bicker over PURE SPECULATION.

Hey, let's wait 2 weeks into the season and see if the lines are still the same! What a novel idea...

But that wouldn't make sense, we should all just argue about them now because they're set in stone and never changing. Pav and Hank will never play on the same line again in their careers and Filpulla is grounded to the 3rd line for the remainder of his newly-signed 5-year contract.

Seriously, guys... I know it's the off-season coming off a SC win, but c'mon... is there any reason to cry about all this bulls*** when there's LITERALLY nothing we can do about it anyways, no one's going to change their opinion, and it's all just relative?

Who knows... Filpulla could be on the second line before preseason's even up. NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA SO STOP CRYING ABOUT IT. Debate it all you want, just don't take it to the next level... we're all fans, this is the entire reason we're all here-- to talk about and debate hockey, primarily the DRW.

Kthx.

You do realize this is a forum don't you....Its all speculation, and thats what makes debates, and conversation. People will share their ideas on what they want, and of course that will spark arguements and discussions. I sometimes question what people expect out of a forum when coming to them and making posts like this....

[Shutemdown 23]

You do realize this is a forum don't you....Its all speculation, and thats what makes debates, and conversation. People will share their ideas on what they want, and of course that will spark arguements and discussions. I sometimes question what people expect out of a forum when coming to them and making posts like this....

Eh... I guess I'm just in the wrong then.

I understand that these are forums, and differing opinions can spark DEBATES.

The last 10 posts I had read were not merely debates, they were arguments. Why sit there and call someone else childish? Does it add to the "debate"?

Yeah, I signed up for these forums to talk hockey with fellow fans, and even to debate my point on certain topics. That's fine. I don't log on everyday to tell people they're wrong or to hear people argue.

Half of debating is being able to understand where the other side is coming from... conceding certain points and arguing others.

If all it is, is "Well, you're wrong, and I'm right. You don't have any idea what you're talking about and I know everything." then it's pointless. Save your breath. You can argue your point perfectly fine without calling someone childish. There are means of having a CIVIL debate or argument.

There is a difference between debating and arguing. These forums are more for dabating.

Sure arguments break out, I guess my point was to say that the ARGUING wasn't getting anyone anywhere and it was unecessary. You can voice your opinion or argue your point all you want, but don't start directing those arguments towards the person, themself.

Why rip on someone that just has a differing opinion?

If it's crazy that I came here looking for FRIENDLY banter, then maybe I should just go elsewhere.

I sometimes question why people make posts like this....

Edited September 5, 2008 by Shutemdown

[Superman54 91]

Your gonna get those people who comment, and insult others, and no matter what you say its gonna continue to happen. Just debate with the ones worth posting too, ignore the others.

[Kp-Wings 3]

If it's crazy that I came here looking for FRIENDLY banter, then maybe I should just go elsewhere.

I sometimes question why people make posts like this....

This is the internet; whether it sounds ridiculous or not, you're not going to find a place where people have "friendly arguements". It's not like LGW is some toxic waste pool where this kind of stuff happens here and only here; it happens on pretty much EVERY forum on the internet.

I'm not trying to sound like a ******, but arguements/name calling/flame wars/whatever tone you want to spin it as; it happens everywhere. Case and point; the TSN "Your Call" section can get pretty nasty. Heck, even the comment section on the Freep online sports page is the exact same way.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Kp-Wings

[norrisnick 1]

This is the internet; whether it sounds ridiculous or not, you're not going to find a place where people have "friendly arguements". It's not like LGW is some toxic waste pool where this kind of stuff happens here and only here; it happens on pretty much EVERY forum on the internet.

I'm not trying to sound like a ******, but arguements/name calling/flame wars/whatever tone you want to spin it as; it happens everywhere. Case and point; the TSN "Your Call" section can get pretty nasty. Heck, even the comment section on the Freep online sports page is the exact same way.

Always baffling how someone can wander so far into the depths of the internet to actually log into a forum and post without knowing a damn thing about what the internet is all about.

For some reason if the above doesn't work try this.

The part where it says Discussing Politics you can change that to Discussing Anything...