Hossa gives his opinion...

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I think Hossa is on the ball there in terms of their offensive games and playmaking ability.

I see both of them similar in terms of leadership as well, where Datsyuk was before/Crosby is now, and where Datsyuk is now/Crosby is trying to be. People I think were wandering seasons ago if Datsyuk was going to be one of those leaders on/off the ice, and he has all but answered that question. And unless something unforseen happens, Crosby will reach such status very soon, and perhaps already has depending on how you look at it.

For those who say he shouldn't be captain at 20 years old, if his teammates and staff didn't think he had it in him to be a leader so soon, they wouldn't have chose him captain at such an early age. Yzerman was captain pretty darn early as well when not many people were pretty sure how he was going to pan out just yet at the time.

Also, for those who have said that Crosby whines and is a crybaby and he shouldn't be a captain if he does that, pretty much any player and their 3rd cousin's son whines at some point in their career either to the refs or the media or wherever else.

Regardless of their ages, these are two of the better players in the league today. How great they are/who is the best in the entire league, that's entirely subjective and an endless debate.

[norrisnick 1]

I swear NNick, I think sometimes you analyze my posts just to find something to debate with me about.

Where exactly was I applying Datsyuk's development curve to Crosby? Where did I say his development would take the exponential leaps that Datsyuk's had? People were commenting on how right now Dats is the more complete player of the two, which he is. I was calling attention to the age difference and difference in NHL experience to highlight that Crosby still has plenty of time to become more complete. That's not the same as saying, "Datsyuk was at point x when he was 21 and look at where he is at 30, so we'll take Crosby's performance as a 21 yr old, multiply it by the Datyuk-performance-factor, and by age 30 he will be...."

Remove Datsyuk from the equation. Crosby is 21 years old and going into his 4th NHL season. So for starters he's barely matured physically. And with only three NHL seasons under his belt, there's still plenty left for Sid to figure out in the NHL.

Even offensively, more experience at this elite level is only going to make Crosby better as he becomes more savvy about the game. Right now he's relying mostly on his speed and his raw talent. As he gets older he'll be able to pick his spots more and make the players around him even better.

His defensive game is probably the best example where he can improve. We saw very clearly in this playoffs what a detriment it is to his team that he's not on the PK. And what an asset it is to have Z and Dats out there on ours. Right now taking a penalty is double punishment for the Pens. They're shorthanded and it keeps their best player off the ice too. He has plenty of room to improve in his two-way play. Sure his point totals might suffer a bit, but it'll make him even harder to play against and ultimately help the team.

He can improve on his faceoffs. He was 49% in the postseason, and barely above 50% in the regular season. The ideal is for him to become a key faceoff guy so they don't have to throw someone on the ice other than him to take key draws and screw up line combos.

He has room to improve on the intangibles. Team leadership, dealing with officials, dealing with the extra abuse he takes on the ice as a star player.

Crosby is already one of the elite players in the league, but I disagree that he doesn't have much room for improvement left.

It works doesn't it? I probably should have quoted his head cheerleader in toby, but whatever...

So he might improve his faceoffs a bit, might get a bit better defensively, and you agree that his offense might take a hit for this. So do you agree that the notion that many seem to take when they argue that "Sid is just 21" or say things like "Datsyuk wasn't even in the league when he was 21" with the unsaid implication that there is still a meteoric rise head for The Kid is kinda silly? And if you argue that that implication isn't there, what other inference can there be besides "look what Pavel did since he was 21, Sid is going to do the same"? If that isn't the case, why bother bringing it up? Who gives a rip how old someone was when they cracked an NHL roster?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It works doesn't it? I probably should have quoted his head cheerleader in toby, but whatever...

So he might improve his faceoffs a bit, might get a bit better defensively, and you agree that his offense might take a hit for this. So do you agree that the notion that many seem to take when they argue that "Sid is just 21" or say things like "Datsyuk wasn't even in the league when he was 21" with the unsaid implication that there is still a meteoric rise head for The Kid is kinda silly? And if you argue that that implication isn't there, what other inference can there be besides "look what Pavel did since he was 21, Sid is going to do the same"? If that isn't the case, why bother bringing it up? Who gives a rip how old someone was when they cracked an NHL roster?

Okay, I'll try and keep this concise to limit your opportunity to blow things out of proportion.

Can you show me exactly where someone said anything close to Crosby's "meteoric rise?" Maybe I missed it, because I didn't see anything anywhere near that.

Several people, including myself, merely made reference to how young he is and that he'll get better, which to me doesn't seem like a particularly outrageous statement.

When we're talking about a player who won the Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson by the time he was 20, I guess to me it's pretty clear he's near the upper levels of his game so there's no implication of "meteoric rise." Mainly because I'm not sure what would constitute a meteoric rise for someone who's already achieved so much, short of winning the Stanley cup as a one-man team. No one made any claims that I saw of him scoring 300 points, or dominating everyone in the league, or anything of that nature.

You can't see any other inference besides "look what Pavel did since he was 21, Sid is going to do the same"?

How about "Datsyuk is a mature player of 30 years old with 6 years of NHL experience on one of the consistently best teams in hockey. Whereas Sidney is 21 years old and probably not done maturing physically or mentally, and has only been in the league 3 years on a very young team. So when comparing the two keep in mind the kind of complete player Sid could be when he's 30." To me it's pretty self evident.

and you seriously think he only has to "get a bit better defensively?" His total PK time for all of the Stanley Cup playoffs was 3:29. Less than the length of two penalties. He averaged 10 seconds of PK time per game. As I said, that means anytime the Pens are shorthanded, their best player is on the bench. And that's just the PK. He's not a two-way player. There's room for more than just a bit of improvement.

Seriously though, let's make things a lot simpler around here.

From now on, people will a post a topic, then we'll wait for you and Eva to hash out what the correct view is (you can take turns or flip a coin or something). Then we can all chime in to agree with it. Because I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting tired of having to lawyer up every time I make what looks like a fairly modest statement in here because it's been cross-examined and is full of faulty assumptions that seem mainly to serve the purpose of arguing for arguing's sake.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Not to talk for NN, but...

I don't think the argument is that Sidney has no room for improvement and won't improve, but rather, that people seem to be assuming that Sid will grow in the ways they're projecting. He will improve, there's no question about that. But how much, how fast -- those answers aren't set in stone, aren't a sure thing.

Which must be why NNick took umbrage at outrageous statements like these:

He's 21....his physical prime is still about 5 years away. Nothing is guaranteed, but he should continue to improve for the next several years.

Agreed.

Will be interesting to see if Crosby is capable of hitting 150 pts.

...

I guess the other thing is that it's tough to compare a 30 year old to a 21 year old. I think Crosby makes some plays at the wrong time (behind the back, etc.) rather than making the simple play, but I think he'll actually get more effective as he matures into the league.

Datsyuk is an amazing player, but I do think Crosby is on a different level, even at such a young age.

I didn't see anyone making any ridiculous point projections, or even saying he'd be the best player in the league. Mostly just general comments that the kid is gonna get better. Of course it's not for sure, but nothing is. Relatively speaking, it's a pretty modest statement.

Edited September 27, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[norrisnick 1]

Okay, I'll try and keep this concise to limit your opportunity to blow things out of proportion.

Can you show me exactly where someone said anything close to Crosby's "meteoric rise?" Maybe I missed it, because I didn't see anything anywhere near that.

Several people, including myself, merely made reference to how young he is and that he'll get better, which to me doesn't seem like a particularly outrageous statement.

When we're talking about a player who won the Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson by the time he was 20, I guess to me it's pretty clear he's near the upper levels of his game so there's no implication of "meteoric rise." Mainly because I'm not sure what would constitute a meteoric rise for someone who's already achieved so much, short of winning the Stanley cup as a one-man team. No one made any claims that I saw of him scoring 300 points, or dominating everyone in the league, or anything of that nature.

You can't see any other inference besides "look what Pavel did since he was 21, Sid is going to do the same"?

How about "Datsyuk is a mature player of 30 years old with 6 years of NHL experience on one of the consistently best teams in hockey. Whereas Sidney is 21 years old and probably not done maturing physically or mentally, and has only been in the league 3 years on a very young team. So when comparing the two keep in mind the kind of complete player Sid could be when he's 30." To me it's pretty self evident.

and you seriously think he only has to "get a bit better defensively?" His total PK time for all of the Stanley Cup playoffs was 3:29. Less than the length of two penalties. He averaged 10 seconds of PK time per game. As I said, that means anytime the Pens are shorthanded, their best player is on the bench. And that's just the PK. He's not a two-way player. There's room for more than just a bit of improvement.

Seriously though, let's make things a lot simpler around here.

From now on, people will a post a topic, then we'll wait for you and Eva to hash out what the correct view is (you can take turns or flip a coin or something). Then we can all chime in to agree with it. Because I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting tired of having to lawyer up every time I make what looks like a fairly modest statement in here because it's been cross-examined and is full of faulty assumptions that seem mainly to serve the purpose of arguing for arguing's sake.

Wuss...

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Man, all the bickering. There is some neat stuff there. Datsyuk's mind is completely unknowable, but it doesn't matter. Just be ready all the time and he will get you the puck. That is really unique and is just one more example of how Datsyuk is just a mind blowing player. I don't care who is better and who has more points, I am damn glad he is on our team. Dats is one in a lifetime.

[RedWingedKitten 9]

So far Z has been the only one to really and I mean really capitolize on Datsyuks unpredictable nature. I think it will take Hossa a few/many games until he can really get in on it, but once he does... oh it will be beautiful.

As for Crosbaby and his crayons... No, in all seriousness I believe he will have a career high somewhere around 130 points, but if he truly wants to become a better player (which i'm sure he does) he will pull a Stevie Y and his defensive game will improve.

My thoughts... not yours.

[dereklai 0]

NeverForgetMac25 said:

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by dereklai

[T.Low 1,011]

The comparison I'm looking forward to hearing is when he compares playing with Datsyuk and Zetterburg versus Crosby and Malkintent.

[eva unit zero 271]

From now on, people will a post a topic, then we'll wait for you and Eva to hash out what the correct view is (you can take turns or flip a coin or something). Then we can all chime in to agree with it. Because I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting tired of having to lawyer up every time I make what looks like a fairly modest statement in here because it's been cross-examined and is full of faulty assumptions that seem mainly to serve the purpose of arguing for arguing's sake.

Glad to see all my posts in this thread have provoked such an angry reaction.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Datsyuk is to Crosby as to what Fedorov was to Lemieux.

That's the best way to look at it.

[Earthhuman 8]

Glad to see all my posts in this thread have provoked such an angry reaction.

Don't act like you don't know what he's talking about!

[dicksmack 33]

I don't think Hossa really said that he felt one was better than the other but said they go about things a bit differently--Sid's approach uses his skating ability and Pavel is the set up man. Hossa then added that he thought Pavel was harder to read than Sid. That makes sense because players know that Sid will most often try to beat you with speed. Datsyuk will beat you by making his pass, shot or move move the instant you've committed yourself in any situation.

From my point of view, Crosby and Datsyuk are blessed more or less equally with playmaking vision. Hossa saying they have different approaches rings true. Pavel is the better stickhandler, Crosby is faster. I don't think there's really one pre-eminent player among the NHL's elite forwards that is on "another level" than the rest of the pack the way Gretzky or Lemieux were.

Crosby may turn out to be that type of player eventually but I don't think that right now. Datysuk and Zetterberg's two-way game does set them apart from the other top scorers though.

[Duck Guy 86]

I think dats and crosby should breakdance fight and hossa will be the judge...

[McCartyFanForLife 17]

I think dats and crosby should breakdance fight and hossa will be the judge...

Let's compare 3 different facets of the game

5 - 5

Short-handed

Power Play

oh wait, Crosby doesn't play short-handed because he doesn't know how to play defense. Sorry, I'd take Datsyuk everytime. More complete player, which in the playoffs, is what you need.

Breakdancing would probably be easier to arrange. How bout guitar hero or DDR

[eva unit zero 271]

Don't act like you don't know what he's talking about!

I don't ever act like other people aren't allowed to have opinions. I will debate opinions, and I will aggressively defend my position, but I won't ever tell anyone they can't have their own position, nor will I ever say anything stronger than "I think you are incorrect, and here is why" followed by reasons backing up my opinion. NN typically acts in a similar fashion with regard to the opinions of others. Hardly justification for the accusations of message board fascism that harold spat out.