Helm/Leino deserve Samuelsson's roster spot

[toby91_ca 620]

The area in bold is def debatable - though I prefer not to

I'd have a hard time supporting a side that suggests he stats are not great for the salary he is earning. 74pts in his last 126 regular season games (translates to 48pts over 82 games) + 24 pts in his last 40 playoff games (about the same, slightly better production than regular season) and he only makes $1.2 million? Oh, he was also +21 during the last regular season (3rd on team in terms of forwards) and +8 during the playoffs (4th on team in terms of forwards).

I guess if he didn't shoot so much people would cut him some slack (of course his shot totals are a little inflated due to his point position on the powerplay.....but whatever).

Not my favorite player in the world, but I can sure find a few other guys that I'd prefer to crap on.

[toby91_ca 620]

You've left me no choice.....

Ummmm, weren't you the one that brought it up? You can't really make a comment and leave it at that. Did you expect everyone to just bow down and not dispute your comment, which I felt is completely off-base?

If you didn't want to get into a debate, then don't make a comment that you know would be debated only to turn around and plead for it to stop.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You've left me no choice.....

In other words....win NFM25 and toby_91.

Ummmm, weren't you the one that brought it up? You can't really make a comment and leave it at that. Did you expect everyone to just bow down and not dispute your comment, which I felt is completely off-base?

If you didn't want to get into a debate, then don't make a comment that you know would be debated only to turn around and plead for it to stop.

QFT

[Shutemdown 23]

I brought it up because way too many members here think Sammy is utter sh*t because he doesn't put up massive numbers. Compared to what he makes his numbers are great. That's important when filling out your roster which is the type of player Samuelsson is (a space filler). He's a role guy thats underpaid for what he brings to the team. There are other guys that were expected to have better production in the NSH series that didn't, but somehow Sammy gets thrown under the bus once again. Hence my comment....how convenient.

You just made a contrdicting point to the argument, though. You said so yourself-- Sammy is a "space filler". So... getting back to the discussion/debate at hand which is NOT Sammy's salary or if he deserves it, it's whether or not he still deserves his spot on the team with our young up-and-comers.

The point as a whole is that his "spot" could be given to someone with more upside. Sameulsson has been here for 3, going on 4, years and hasn't progressed that greatly over the past 3 years. Everyone here (for the most part) agrees-- his play is streaky at times.

So why "fill space" on a team that has so much young talent ready to flood into the system? Don't get me wrong... he's solid in most regards. He's proven he can still score goals, although they come in flourishes and then disappear. Nothing against him for that, but if his play is still sitting at the same level going into a 4th season, then maybe it's time for a change.

Helm could play in his place for probably LESS money and do a BETTER job. With Helm, the sky's the limit... his potential has barely been tapped into. Sammy has hit the cieling in terms of his overall development. He's shown that there's not too much more to be seen from him, besides what we've already seen.

Once again, nothing against Sammy personally, but why have a "space filler" on a team of stars and talented youth? Get these young'n's in the system and let 'em play!

[GoWings1905 2,694]

No. The part I don't understand is why anyone would argue that Helm/Leino deserve Sammy's roster spot. There are players like Kopecky and Maltby who provide nothing compared to Sammy, yet everyone's favorite target is the first to go? It doesn't make any sense to get rid of a solid player at both ends of the ice because certain people can't handle that he shoots too much. If you are going to argue about Helm/Leino deserving a roster spot, at least do it realistically with another player that is actually replaceable.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You just made a contrdicting point to the argument, though. You said so yourself-- Sammy is a "space filler". So... getting back to the discussion/debate at hand which is NOT Sammy's salary or if he deserves it, it's whether or not he still deserves his spot on the team with our young up-and-comers.

The point as a whole is that his "spot" could be given to someone with more upside. Sameulsson has been here for 3, going on 4, years and hasn't progressed that greatly over the past 3 years. Everyone here (for the most part) agrees-- his play is streaky at times.

So why "fill space" on a team that has so much young talent ready to flood into the system? Don't get me wrong... he's solid in most regards. He's proven he can still score goals, although they come in flourishes and then disappear. Nothing against him for that, but if his play is still sitting at the same level going into a 4th season, then maybe it's time for a change.

Helm could play in his place for probably LESS money and do a BETTER job. With Helm, the sky's the limit... his potential has barely been tapped into. Sammy has hit the cieling in terms of his overall development. He's shown that there's not too much more to be seen from him, besides what we've already seen.

Once again, nothing against Sammy personally, but why have a "space filler" on a team of stars and talented youth? Get these young'n's in the system and let 'em play!

No, my exact comment was:

"Compared to what he makes his numbers are great. That's important when filling out your roster which is the type of player Samuelsson is (a space filler)."

Every team has space-fillers and needs them to stay under that cap. Sammy, while a space-filler on the Red Wings (compared to the top tier players in Detroit) is an absolute bargain for what he brings to the table. It's not as simple as saying "we have talented youth so get these youngins into the system and let them play" for multiple reasons. First and foremost, while their salary is comparable but slightly less than Sammy's they don't bring to the table what he does (Experience, "Guaranteed" Points in the tune of 45-50'ish). The massive point that people always tend to overlook is the system the Wings utilize. The reason the Wings are able to stay competitive and under the cap isn't just due to the brass, player-paycuts and coaching. It also has to do with bringing players up at the last possible moment to keep their salaries in check until Free Agency. When you bring up a kid as late as the Red Wings have been able to do, you have the luxury of keeping their salary in check rather than having to pay them top dollar at a young age. In other words, its not always just about who the "Best" player is, its about who the "Right" player is.

For how much Sammy is paid, what he contributes (year-in and year-out), he's a better option on our bottom 2 lines *currently* than the alternatives.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Ya gotta understand 1 thing...Some posters here feel they're the "ruling party", & won't back down until they feel vindicated; going as far as to change the topic at hand in order to justify their position, & giving you the impression that they're always right, no matter what the topic may be.

Is this what you're supposed to write when you're proven wrong. Don't be upset with me because you don't like that I questioned your position. This a forum after all.

Sidenote: No one change the subject any more than you did.

[toby91_ca 620]

Is this what you're supposed to write when you're proven wrong. Don't be upset with me because you don't like that I questioned your position. This a forum after all.

Not sure he is proven wrong, I think that's tough to do, nothing is black and white, everyone has opinions. My beef is that he suggested the comment was debateable (i.e. produces based on his salary). I agree that this point is not debateable, but if someone is going to suggest it is, at least give some reasons to back up the claim.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Not sure he is proven wrong, I think that's tough to do, nothing is black and white, everyone has opinions. My beef is that he suggested the comment was debateable (i.e. produces based on his salary). I agree that this point is not debateable, but if someone is going to suggest it is, at least give some reasons to back up the claim.

That's what I was going for. I asked for a player to be named that brings to the table what Sammy does for that salary, and didn't get a response.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Jeez you guys are something else.

All I did was comment on NFM's comment "compared to what he makes his numbers are great" by stating that it's a debatable topic for which I don't want to start.

Give it a rest people

All I did was question you back. What's the problem here?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Proven wrong?

You're the one whom brought up the sub-topic concerning Sammy's salary which has nothing to do with the original topic in order to give yourself the satisfaction of thinking/justifying - "I'm right - I win".

Discussions with you can be quite tiresome.

I brought it up because it was an important point in relation to what you were saying. Besides, Sammy's salary does play an important role in discussing whether or not Helm or Leino should take his spot. Gofigure that it would get brought up.

Discussions with you can be quite tiresome.

Likewise, questions to you seem to fall upon deaf ears. We should just move on seeing as that we're getting nowhere.

[Opie 308]

NFM and Toby,

Just let it play out, think about last year pre season I got castrated on here for saying the Ducks weren't the favorite because they had no offense, people were saying that with that D and PP they could put out AHLers at forward and be the favorite. At the deadline people wanted KH's head rolling, he was a horrible GM and needed to be let go.

Watch how it plays out, it is so nice when levelheadedness turns out to be right.

[Yellowknife Redwing 57]

The sense of loyalty here absolutely sickens me.

Kirk Maltby has won 4 Stanley Cups with this club and is one of the longest serving Red Wings currently on the roster. His defensive play is effective in tandem with Drapes and he pitches in the occasional point or two. I would say if anybody has "earned" a roster spot, it's Maltby and not Helm/Leino.

Samuelsson has been good for averaging 40 points over the past 3 seasons and as was mentioned earlier, scored some very clutch goals in the playoffs and outscored the whole team in the finals. I've never been a huge Sammy fan, but there's no denying that he has been a consistent contributor to the club.

Don't get me wrong, I think Helm is awesome (I even made a thread praising him last season) and I'm very excited to see what Leino can do, but if you're willing to begin casting out veterans because of 4 preseason games, you need to re-examine your loyalties. This all reminds me of people saying that Franzen deserves Holmstrom's spot on the top line.

[Opie 308]

Ya gotta understand 1 thing...Some posters here feel they're the "ruling party", & won't back down until they feel vindicated; going as far as to change the topic at hand in order to justify their position, & giving you the impression that they're always right, no matter what the topic may be.

Yes the ruling party, is that like senate majority leader?

So when some one disagrees with you they are trying to be a ruling party?

The only knock that people have on Sammy is that he shoots too much and is not accurate, that is the only knock, the one and only.

Him being on pp2 point, Babs decision not his, he can't dictate where and when he plays.

Don't like him on a line, Babs decision. And you would rather see and unproven, inexperienced, unknown entity on the third line because why, exactly? Sammy can't play D, he can't score, he can't pass, why exactly?

Oh that is right, because most posters on here need some one to hate, without the whipping boy what would half of the posts on here look like, nothing because even in the offseason about 10% of the posts on here revolve around Sammy, why he sucks, who CAN replace him. (remember no one is questioning Helm or Leino after what 3 preseason games good sampling)

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Hudler had 14pts to Sammy's 13, not much of a difference. Also, Hudler had 6 pts on the power, leaving his even strength pts to 8, comparing to Sammy's 11. Hudler played more on the power play than Sammy.

Not sure why I feel the need to defend Sammy since I don't think he's that great, but I guess I just feel he gets bashed more than he deserves.

I also truly despise ice-time arguments, I mean, if you get 10 minutes a night and average 1pt per game, it's not like you are all of a sudden going to average 2pts per game if your ice time is increased to 20 minutes a night. It doesn't work that way.

Lastly, I don't think the suggestion is that Hudler replaces Sammy, so I'm not sure why the comparison is relevant anyway.

It most definitely does work like that... Good players do progress during the course of their career, but on top of that they are given infinitely more ice-time. On top of that, when you are getting more ice-time you are most likely playing with better line mates who are also getting the extra ice time.

[Konnan511 1,736]

No. The part I don't understand is why anyone would argue that Helm/Leino deserve Sammy's roster spot. There are players like Kopecky and Maltby who provide nothing compared to Sammy, yet everyone's favorite target is the first to go? It doesn't make any sense to get rid of a solid player at both ends of the ice because certain people can't handle that he shoots too much. If you are going to argue about Helm/Leino deserving a roster spot, at least do it realistically with another player that is actually replaceable.

This I agree with. Sammy isn't going anywhere due to his defensive ability and his salary/point production ratio. Personally I cannot stand Sammy, but that shouldn't let one's judgment get clouded. Malts does absolutley nothing, averaging 11 points and a -9 +/- over the past three seasons. Not to mention about half of his goals last season were EN goals (maybe an exaggeration). No SH goal or assists the past 2 seasons. Let Helm take his spot by playing every other game, alternating Malts and him. Let helm gain chemistry with Drapes, because those two would be able to work very well together since they play the same style (fast and energetic).

I'm not even going to start talking about Kope, some people see this "potential", but I don't. I see him get hit with his head down more than he hits, this guy is just plain soft and fragile, at least Leino has shown he can drive to the net, and he has NEVER drove to the net before the start of these preseason games!

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

No. The part I don't understand is why anyone would argue that Helm/Leino deserve Sammy's roster spot. There are players like Kopecky and Maltby who provide nothing compared to Sammy, yet everyone's favorite target is the first to go? It doesn't make any sense to get rid of a solid player at both ends of the ice because certain people can't handle that he shoots too much. If you are going to argue about Helm/Leino deserving a roster spot, at least do it realistically with another player that is actually replaceable.

Kopecky = grit that we obviously lack.

Matlby = a player that the classy organization would not just trade away or waive.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

I brought it up because it was an important point in relation to what you were saying. Besides, Sammy's salary does play an important role in discussing whether or not Helm or Leino should take his spot. Gofigure that it would get brought up.

Likewise, questions to you seem to fall upon deaf ears. We should just move on seeing as that we're getting nowhere.

It certainly could depending on the decisions made with the bottom pairing of the D.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

NFM and Toby,

Just let it play out, think about last year pre season I got castrated on here for saying the Ducks weren't the favorite because they had no offense, people were saying that with that D and PP they could put out AHLers at forward and be the favorite. At the deadline people wanted KH's head rolling, he was a horrible GM and needed to be let go.

Watch how it plays out, it is so nice when levelheadedness turns out to be right.

Ugh, because you have opinion that differs about a particular player you are all the sudden levelheaded and the rest aren't? Don't get me started.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

It certainly could depending on the decisions made with the bottom pairing of the D.

The same could be said about a couple other forwards on the Wings, yet conveniently Sammy is always the only one who is wasting cap space.

[Opie 308]

Ugh, because you have opinion that differs about a particular player you are all the sudden levelheaded and the rest aren't? Don't get me started.

I never said being right or wrong made you levelheaded, I said it is nice when being levelheaded turns out to be right. I was levelheaded in that situation because I stopped arguing, not because of my opinion.

Sorry if my wording led you astray what you understood from my post was not my intended message.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

The same could be said about a couple other forwards on the Wings, yet conveniently Sammy is always the only one who is wasting cap space.

Puttin' words in my mouth! I'll say it again... I would love to see Maltby go, but that just isn't likely so I talk about more realistic options.

[Opie 308]

F. Michael to be honest with you, last spring I was the only person on this board defending Sammy remembering who I defended him to is asking a lot of me.

How inconsistent is he, do you really expect more than 40 points a year from the guy, do you expect him to be more than the #5 or 6 forward on this team?

How inconsistent are the following set of stats;

In 3 regular seasons:

71gp 23g 22a 45pts

53 14 20 34

73 11 29 40

In 3 post seasons:

10 3 3 6

6 0 1 1

18 3 8 11

That is pretty close to the picture of consistency, the only way he could be more consistent is if he got the same exact numbers every year.

Maybe it is your expectations that are set to high.

Again your problem with him on the PP point is a problem with Babs not Sammy, Sammy did not put himself there, BABS DID! Sammy wasn't the only person to step forward last year and volunteer to be on the second line with Mule and Flip, BABS PUT HIM THERE!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

The "Ruling Party" comment is towards those posters whom feel it is neccessary to alter/change the topic in order to prove themselves "right" (did you notice the cute "we win", & "your proven wrong" posts?) as if this were a competition or something?

My original comment concerned Sammy's poor play against the Preds, but in follow-up post I complimented his play as the playoffs went on (remember our lengthy discussion this past spring concerning Sammy)?.....Nothing on my part was done to alter the topic; another poster brought in Sammy's salary (which I felt had nothing to do with the original topic), & made that the center of attention...I stated I wasn't going to get into that sub-topic (though I made the mistake of making a comment - calling it 'debatable' regarding Sammy's salary/performance), & that's when it went downhill.

My knocks on Sammy concern his inconsistent play (at times he looks lost out there), & his ability to play the point while on the pp.

God forbid someone such as myself would argue your points and bring up his salary into a debate about whether or not his roster spot should be taken over by Helm or Leino. I most certainly didn't change the subject, I simply added that his salary along with what he brings to the table makes him more attractive than the other two players in question. You just chose not to acknowledge that and instead went off on some tangent that I somehow changed the subject, when the truth is you had no answer to the question I asked you.

Perhaps the "win" comment was offsides, but you never did name a single player that brings to the table what Sammy does for the price tag he has. Tell you what, I'll even narrow it down to the players in question......Helm and Leino *currently* don't bring to the table what Sammy does. Is that better?

[Opie 308]

What makes you think that given his ice-time and PP time, a player like Leino or Helm couldn't match that?

Hudler was getting 4th line minutes and had more points than Sammy who was playing 2nd line minutes for a majority of the playoffs. Man, if Leino shot over 200 shots in a season I'm sure he could put in at least 11 goals.

BTW, your gut feeling about a guy doesn't mean he can do anything remotely close to what Sammy can do, as stated by another poster, it is not like Leino and Helm right now are out there playing against top tier NHL lines.

Also Huds was a second round draft pick that would have been a 1st rounder if taller, his skill set is supposed to be better than Sammy's, plus Sammy was brought to the Wings to be a defensive forward, Huds was brought in to score. Not exactly apples to apples.

s*** last year in the AHL Helm put up less points than Sammy, what makes you think in the NHL he will be able to put up better numbers against better players?

Edited October 1, 2008 by Opie