Helm/Leino deserve Samuelsson's roster spot

[Kp-Wings 3]

I don't know why you guys keep saying we should get rid of Samuelsson, because he's already been gone for almost 10 years. Ulf Samulesson hasn't played for the Wings since 1999.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Kp-Wings

[Drake_Marcus 890]

prediction: leino and ericsson will start 50 games

I'd rather they played 82 But I'm a greedy bastard when it comes to ice time

I don't know why you guys keep saying we should get rid of Samuelsson, because he's already been gone for almost 10 years. Ulf Samulesson hasn't played for the Wings since 1999.

Man oh man that's a stupid name. Ulf. Still, beats the hell out of shoving a "G'" or "Ja" in front of a regular name and calling it a human name and not an insult to the English language.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

prediction: leino and ericsson will start 50 games

That's wishful thinking there to say the least with those two right now.

[Reds4Life 51]

Helm deserves Kopecky's spot. Kopecky sucks. Maltby is useless too, I'd take Leino over Malts any day.

[Doggy 130]

That's wishful thinking there to say the least with those two right now.

Probably not so much with Ericsson you're right about Leino though.

[Dawgs 0]

Leino looks ready now but a year in GR would do him a world of good. He needs to learn to deal with the speed of the game on the smaller ice surfaces and some techniques like protecting the puck and himself along the boards you just cant learn on the big European rinks. He needs to be in GR and hopefully he stays in NA this season. Next year I think hes a lock to make the team.

Helm is ready now but the guys he would replace are still servicable and cheap and with Helm still with non waiver years hes just gonna have to wait.

I do think these guys replace Sammy and Maltby very soon. And both will probably see some ice time in Detroit this season due to injuries.

OT: Howard looks ready too. He was good last night. I was glad to hear Mickey talk about him losing a few pounds and getting in better shape. His feet looked lightning fast last night. Needs to work on those shootouts though.

[ArcticWing 0]

Don't forget Abdelkader either. Abdelkader-Helm-Leino are better than most of the third lines in NHL, and in Wings they don't make even in the fourth line.

Edited October 1, 2008 by ArcticWing

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I know it's the cool thing to like the new kid on the street or latest gadget in the stores, and I'd definitely like to see more of what guys like Abdlekader and Leino could do, but you want them to replace guys like Samuelsson and Maltby after just a handful of preseason games, plus just 2 regular season games for another one of these guys? I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. Be patient, these guys are going to get their chances in the NHL, but I don't think it's the best idea to do it after just limited games where either the results don't matter or two late regular season games when your status for the playoffs has already been determined.

Edited October 1, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[Guest LivingtheDream]

I have watched Sammy for years and been disgusted by his stupid shots and lack of physical play for his size. However, I am willing to give him some slack this season and see if he changes. His game 1 SCF performance was legendary and who doesn't say that to win it all you need players like him to step up. Well, like it or not, he did in a big way. Here's the question. Will he realize he scored those goals not with his shot, but by driving to the net? Will he realize he does not have a Federov shot and that he actually has to work hard to score? I guess I'll have to wait and see. Personally I don't think he is smart enough to think this out or think on his feet on the ice day in and day out, but I could be wrong. I'm hoping intra team competition for spots will force him and others to put up great play.

[Inultus 12]

You can't tell from these limited games whether or not Sammy should be replaced. The Wings will try the newbs out on a limited basis and if they rock it, they will play more. That's how it will and should be.

[b.shanafan14 733]

I was just logging onto LGW to state a similar opinion, glad someone already started a thread. Helm and Leino were both stellar last night. Helm was using his speed and finesse to create a lot of opportunities and Leino was handling the puck incredibly and producing a great backcheck for a guy whose weakness was supposed to be defensive responsibility.

I didn't as much think about Samuelsson leaving (not that I wouldn't be all for it), I was thinking more about Maltby. I understand the organizations loyalty to players and I think I would be bummed to see him go after all this time, but when you look at the higher level of speed and skill we could have in that spot by throwing in Helm, without losing any of Maltby's deminished physical play, it seems like a no brainer if you take personal feelings out of the equation.

And take a guy in Samuelsson who is going to be looking for a good size raise next season when we have other signings, and someone who constantly shoots shoots shoots and rarely on the mark, killing the play or almost killing the Cleary, and weigh that against a guy eager to earn his spot who has a great shot (more accurate, less powerful) and holds onto the puck and makes decisions, that trade off seems conceivable too.

I understand that this was a one game thing that we've actually seen on TV, and its fresh in our minds and all. But Babcock has been raving about Helm and even I was shocked by how damn good he was last night. And Babs has also been saying good things about Leino, which we saw, and only mentioning his defensive awareness as a weakness, and which we didn't see last night. Seems like a tremendous waste of talent to let those two sit in GR or bolt to Finland.

Ain't seen Mac play, but as far as Downey last night, he could have dropped the gloves at numerous times last night and didn't, even when provoked. He had nothing to lose and at times our players were being taken advantage of. Thats his job, thats how he should earn a spot, fighting everything in sight like one of the young kids you see trying to make other teams.

Hossa seemed completely out of place last night as well. I don't know if it preseason and his attitude is lacking or what, but I saw little to no effort and on many occasions I thought he was blowing nice scoring chances by either making an extra pass or throwing a bad shot wide. Even in the shootout it looked like he skated to within a couple feet of Price and let an easy one go, didn't even seem to pick a spot. Hopefully this isn't a trend.

[/morningrant] [/overreaction]

[toby91_ca 620]

What makes you think that given his ice-time and PP time, a player like Leino or Helm couldn't match that?

Hudler was getting 4th line minutes and had more points than Sammy who was playing 2nd line minutes for a majority of the playoffs. Man, if Leino shot over 200 shots in a season I'm sure he could put in at least 11 goals.

Hudler had 14pts to Sammy's 13, not much of a difference. Also, Hudler had 6 pts on the power, leaving his even strength pts to 8, comparing to Sammy's 11. Hudler played more on the power play than Sammy.

Not sure why I feel the need to defend Sammy since I don't think he's that great, but I guess I just feel he gets bashed more than he deserves.

I also truly despise ice-time arguments, I mean, if you get 10 minutes a night and average 1pt per game, it's not like you are all of a sudden going to average 2pts per game if your ice time is increased to 20 minutes a night. It doesn't work that way.

Lastly, I don't think the suggestion is that Hudler replaces Sammy, so I'm not sure why the comparison is relevant anyway.

[Opie 308]

I am going to avoid the Sammy side of the argument and throw this tid bit out there:

Babcock makes everyone earn their spot, from Huds to Franzen to Cleary. If he thinks a guy hasn't earned it yet he will not give them the minutes, maybe just maybe Babs is letting the kids know he likes what they have (to keep their confidence up) but at the same time he has stated things they need to work on. Leino specifically Babs has said needs to work on his size and going to the net.

Using size and going to the net are things that are way up on Babs priority list.

Listen Babs is making the lineups I believe his resume speaks for itself, have some faith in the head coach and his 3 straight 50 wins season, 2 straight WCFs, and 1 Stanley cup.

He has everyone on this team playing his style, certain guys he has shoot more, certain guys he ask go to the net harder than others, everyone plays D, etc...

Maybe just maybe, he thinks 20 mins a night will help Abdelkader, Helm, and Leino will make them even better for next year when he could potentially have lost Hossa and Sammy.

Injuries will happen, guys will need nights off, these guys will play some with the big club, especially if the Wings tear the league up this year.

[bellarina 1]

Helm deserves Kopecky's spot. Kopecky sucks. Maltby is useless too, I'd take Leino over Malts any day.

Dam I hate wing bashers.

[deker 0]

I am also in the anti-Sammy camp. Personally, I think he has compromising pictures of Babcock to get the playing time he does, but I also find that just when I'm bitching about him the most, he comes up with a good performance.

We have to consider that Sammy's in a contract year, and history shows that is when many players put in their best performances (see Martin Lapointe). We're better off having him in the lineup will Leino gets so much needed adjustment time in GR. But next year, when Sammy deserves a raise, we'll need the younger, cheaper and 1 year better Leino and Helm to address cap issues so that Sammy's salary can be used for Zetterberg, Hossa and Franzen.

[Shutemdown 23]

Ok... little off-topic, but I'll post.

First off, I still have hope that the organization will try to retain ALL their current players next year, including Hossa. Assuming he sticks around, I would love to see the lines like this:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmer

Hossa-Filpulla-Franzen

Hudler- Helm-Leino

Kopecky-Draper-Cleary

This leaves out both Maltby and Samuelsson... nothing against either of them, Maltby used to be one of my favorite players, but their time is coming to a close.

Maltby's production has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaay down. Compared to years past, he's just not the same. I understand he's a role-player, but his spot could be filled by someone with more upside.

Samuelsson has always been towards the bottom of my list, but I've never really had a problem with him. Nowadays, though, there are way too many players waiting to come up to keep him around. I know he's a bargain, he's solid defensively, etc. Either way, Helm could do the same defensively, while being faster and more accurate. (I'm so tired of watching Sammy rifle them wide...)

Kopecky didn't gain my respect until the first preseason game this year. He always seemed to be injured, and there seemed like there was a lack of motivation for him. However, watching him play, he's actually pretty good. He's a HUGE kid that likes to hit. He's got good hands, too.

Ideally, I'd love to see Abdelkader-Helm-Leino. Abby's already got my support... he's SO good! Helm remains one of my fav's... he's just got so much drive and determination. The kid never lets up. Leino will be solid next year... I think a year in GR will help him greatly. Won't take long though!

Edited October 1, 2008 by Shutemdown

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Nor can you ignore Sammy's poor performance throughout the opening series against the Preds.

Yeah, because no other low-paid Red Wing had a "poor showing (1 point, Even +/- vs. NSH)" at any point in the playoffs aside from Sammy against the Preds.....

How convenient.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Please enlighten me...

The point is, you're ripping on a guy that makes next to nothing in salary based on a performance that wasn't overly worse than his pay scale woud dictate in a single playoff series last year. You fail to give credit to any other point in the playoff run and instead focus on one mediocre series for him in which he wasn't a detriment to the team.

Why not single out the guys that statistically compared to Sammy in that series?

Versus NSH

Samuelsson: 0G, 1A, 1 Pts, Even +/-

Cleary: 0G, 1A, 1 Pts, +2

Filppula: 1G, 0A, 1 Pts, Even +/-

Maltby: DNP (Would've more than likely had worse stats than Samuelsson)

[toby91_ca 620]

The point is, you're ripping on a guy that makes next to nothing in salary based on a performance that wasn't overly worse than his pay scale woud dictate in a single playoff series last year. You fail to give credit to any other point in the playoff run and instead focus on one mediocre series for him in which he wasn't a detriment to the team.

Why not single out the guys that statistically compared to Sammy in that series?

Versus NSH

Samuelsson: 0G, 1A, 1 Pts, Even +/-

Cleary: 0G, 1A, 1 Pts, +2

Filppula: 1G, 0A, 1 Pts, Even +/-

Maltby: DNP (Would've more than likely had worse stats than Samuelsson)

Samuelsson was actually a +1

But why focus on round 1 anyway, what about the Finals, which really matters?

Sammy - 3 goals, 4pts +3

Dats - 1 goal, 4pts +1

Z - 2 goals, 6pts +1

Edited October 1, 2008 by toby91_ca

[CrossCheck24 2]

Prediction time:

I don't think that Malts is going anywhere. Why would the wings resign Cheli? Loyalty. Holland and Co. are going to have Malts until he retires. At 36, it could be soon. I bet malts and Draper retire together. I see Malts being an assistant coach, and Draper being a commentator...

Since I don't know the inner workings of the team, I am going to guess that Malts has the intangible leadership that babs and holland want in the locker room.

Datsyuk was 23 when he first made the team, Z 22, (Not saying that helm and leino are that caliber of player)

Helm is 21

Leino 24

Abdelkator 21

Erickson 24

Dats and Z both didn't play any minor league hockey here. So if the guy is good enough he doesn't need time to adjust to the rink

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

If I recall there was a lengthy discussion during the series this past spring against the Preds in which I admit I wanted Sammy benched due to his poor play.

In the 2nd round against the Avs his play (as well as the entire team play) really picked up against an injury riddled opponent; which I gave Sammy credit for.

For what it's worth I'm not "ripping" on Sammy - just pointing out the fact that his play was far from stellar in that opening series, but then he regained form in the following series.

Sammy's salary has nothing to do with this discussion; don't know why you brought it up?

I brought it up because way too many members here think Sammy is utter sh*t because he doesn't put up massive numbers. Compared to what he makes his numbers are great. That's important when filling out your roster which is the type of player Samuelsson is (a space filler). He's a role guy thats underpaid for what he brings to the team. There are other guys that were expected to have better production in the NSH series that didn't, but somehow Sammy gets thrown under the bus once again. Hence my comment....how convenient.

[Opie 308]

I brought it up because way too many members here think Sammy is utter sh*t because he doesn't put up massive numbers. Compared to what he makes his numbers are great. That's important when filling out your roster which is the type of player Samuelsson is (a space filler). He's a role guy thats underpaid for what he brings to the team. There are other guys that were expected to have better production in the NSH series that didn't, but somehow Sammy gets thrown under the bus once again. Hence my comment....how convenient.

Don't forget also brought up in this thread as a detractor to Sammy was the Cleary injury which was just pure bad luck!

[Mors 201]

Agree with the OP...it's really hard to justify not giving Helm a roster spot, and from what I've seen of Leino he's deserving as well.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Helm looked really sharp both offensively and defensively he was all over the ice, literally, leino was good offensively although i think he would have to get better to challenge sammy, id give helm a third line spot though right now.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

The area in bold is def debatable - though I prefer not to

EDIT - BTW I don't feel members here bash Sammy due to his lack of "massive numbers", but more or less due to his gaffes, & not being the best player on the right point during a pp, but that's probably more of a coaching issue vs Sammy's abilities.

Name one player that makes as little as Sammy does and not only puts up the point totals he does, but plays solid defense. IMO, the bolded isn't debatable.

The area in bold is def debatable - though I prefer not to

EDIT - BTW I don't feel members here bash Sammy due to his lack of "massive numbers", but more or less due to his gaffes, & not being the best player on the right point during a pp, but that's probably more of a coaching issue vs Sammy's abilities.

His shot accuracy leaves something to be desired, but name a better player on the current Wings roster to play the 2nd unit PP point. It's not a coaching issue....Babcock recognizes that Sammy brings more to that unit than any other player on this current roster (including Stuart who played alongside Kronwall since February).