Downey cleared waivers

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I dont know why the fight fans even post in these topics. It's lose lose, people dont see the importance of an enforcer. Fine, that's there opinion, there view, etc. Nothing you can say will change there minds. Be happy to know that Downey and McCarty will see time this season, because it will happen. Holland has said as such, otherwise they wouldnt be on the team.

TBH, I think a very large majority of people here understand the importance of an enforcer. The posts that come across as "anti-enforcer" are often made in response to the extreme pro-enforcers on here (not specifically you #1 Fan) that insist on turning every thread into their "the Red Wings are soft" rhetoric. There are two sides to the debate certainly, but I would assume that most people here (including myself) are content with the middle ground. I value the role of Downey and Mac, but I also understand the Red Wings are still a perfectly dominant team that can hold their own without an enforcer-type player on the ice.

[esteef 2,679]

YAY!!!!

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

TBH, I think a very large majority of people here understand the importance of an enforcer. The posts that come across as "anti-enforcer" are often made in response to the extreme pro-enforcers on here (not specifically you #1 Fan) that insist on turning every thread into their "the Red Wings are soft" rhetoric. There are two sides to the debate certainly, but I would assume that most people here (including myself) are content with the middle ground. I value the role of Downey and Mac, but I also understand the Red Wings are still a perfectly dominant team that can hold their own without an enforcer-type player on the ice.

I understand that. I for one, dont believe we are soft. Having tough players like Downey and Drake around all season, tougher other guys up. Although, I feel the need for an enforcer. Every team has one or more, they have there place. If they can fight, and are good for the lockerroom, I dont really care if there skills arent great. It's just that when people say there isnt a need for them, it rubs me the wrong way. All the way up the ranks people acknowledge at enforcers are part of the game, and that there important. I feel like that, I understand us being Wings fans and having see so much talent and great players, and being accustomed to the european style of hockey, it isnt gonna be something everyone accepts or likes, or thinks is important. I'll keep saying what I believe, and people will keep saying what they think. I just enjoy when you can find a medium where everyone agrees, but with a forum comes other points of view, and arguments of course.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

TBH, I think a very large majority of people here understand the importance of an enforcer. The posts that come across as "anti-enforcer" are often made in response to the extreme pro-enforcers on here (not specifically you #1 Fan) that insist on turning every thread into their "the Red Wings are soft" rhetoric. There are two sides to the debate certainly, but I would assume that most people here (including myself) are content with the middle ground. I value the role of Downey and Mac, but I also understand the Red Wings are still a perfectly dominant team that can hold their own without an enforcer-type player on the ice.

...especially the bolded types.

Edited October 9, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[BeeRYCE 2]

I just got to reading the main post today, and Cory Murphy got waived? Bad move, I think... He's pretty good, and really good for the Panthers.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Two days late, but I feel obligated to refute this ludicrous argument.

Downey did not play in the playoffs, and McCarty is no longer an enforcer. He'll fight, but he's not a threat.

Ludicrous statement?

Both those guys were on the roster last year whether you like it or not. They were a part of this team and did contribute. There's other ways to contribute besides doing it on the scoreboard. Too many posters here (you included)apparently don't realize that, or else you would have never made that post to refute the obvious fact that I posted previously.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I'm just gonna throw something out here. If the Wings win the Cup this year with this roster can we finally put to bed this whole enforcer argument?

I agree that balance is vital to a teams' success, but also feel that team toughness is more important than icing a guy like Downey night-in and night-out. If the Wings are fortunate enough to repeat this year without a night-in and night-out couple of "enforcers" can we be done with this?

[Doc Holiday 0]

If enforcers win cups, why couldn't we win in 07 after having maiming Bertuzzi in the roster?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I'm just gonna throw something out here. If the Wings win the Cup this year with this roster can we finally put to bed this whole enforcer argument?

I agree that balance is vital to a teams' success, but also feel that team toughness is more important than icing a guy like Downey night-in and night-out. If the Wings are fortunate enough to repeat this year without a night-in and night-out couple of "enforcers" can we be done with this?

Not that "team toughness" talk again. How is Downey detrimental to "team toughness"? Also, we could win the Cup with several 3rd and 4th liners injured, because that's how good we are. That doesn't however, mean that the player who was injured and not in the lineup wasn't somehow important to the team in the long run.

Fight fans are always going to want the Wings to regularly carry an enforcer, especially if we always finish last in fighting majors. Whether we win the Cup and don't dress an enforcer throughout the playoffs isn't going to change anyone's mind. We want to see fights in the regular season, which is what we're talking about now in this particular discussion. The playoffs are a different story and are a long way away.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Not that "team toughness" talk again. How is Downey detrimental to "team toughness"? Also, we could win the Cup with several 3rd and 4th liners injured, because that's how good we are. That doesn't however, mean that the player who was injured and not in the lineup wasn't somehow important to the team in the long run.

Fight fans are always going to want the Wings to regularly carry an enforcer, especially if we always finish last in fighting majors. Whether we win the Cup and don't dress an enforcer throughout the playoffs isn't going to change anyone's mind. We want to see fights in the regular season, which is what we're talking about now in this particular discussion. The playoffs are a different story and are a long way away.

Who said anything about Downey being detrimental to "team toughness"? Where did you come up with that, because I most certainly didn't say he was detrimental to team toughness. Now, his level of play is a whole other thing.

Not that "team toughness" talk again. How is Downey detrimental to "team toughness"? Also, we could win the Cup with several 3rd and 4th liners injured, because that's how good we are. That doesn't however, mean that the player who was injured and not in the lineup wasn't somehow important to the team in the long run.

Fight fans are always going to want the Wings to regularly carry an enforcer, especially if we always finish last in fighting majors. Whether we win the Cup and don't dress an enforcer throughout the playoffs isn't going to change anyone's mind. We want to see fights in the regular season, which is what we're talking about now in this particular discussion. The playoffs are a different story and are a long way away.

The bolded comment just spoke volumes.

I'm never going to bother having a conversation with you about this topic again as you and I have very different ideas of what we "want to see".

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Who said anything about Downey being detrimental to "team toughness"? Where did you come up with that, because I most certainly didn't say he was detrimental to team toughness. Now, his level of play is a whole other thing.

The bolded comment just spoke volumes.

I'm never going to bother having a conversation with you about this topic again as you and I have very different ideas of what we "want to see".

You never said Downey was detrimental to team toughness, but that was the general feel of your post to me.

I want to see the Wings fighting more in the regular season, which is where a guy like Downey comes in. The regular seasons have become boring lately, since this team's success is always going to depend on the playoffs. I don't see how more fighting can do anything except benefit the entertainment value of this team for the fans.

Also, you don't have to agree with me on anything if you don't want to. I don't make my posts to convince people, instead I just speak my mind.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

I dont know why the fight fans even post in these topics. It's lose lose, people dont see the importance of an enforcer. Fine, that's there opinion, there view, etc. Nothing you can say will change there minds. Be happy to know that Downey and McCarty will see time this season, because it will happen. Holland has said as such, otherwise they wouldnt be on the team.

Amen to that.

[egroen 384]

I love to see fighting as well, but it is almost an embarrassment of riches the Wings are suffering from right now. It is hard to put Downey in over Helm and Leino, when they are such better players in every aspect of the game except fighting.

I wish we could combine McCarty and Downey.

Take:

Downey's toughness and fighting ability

Downey's penchant for drawing penalties

Downey's lack of dumb penalties

McCarty's better hockey sense

McCarty's much better scoring touch

McCarty's decent defense

And you have a guy I would like to see in every single game during the regular season.

Edited October 9, 2008 by egroen

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You never said Downey was detrimental to team toughness, but that was the general feel of your post to me.

I want to see the Wings fighting more in the regular season, which is where a guy like Downey comes in. The regular seasons have become boring lately, since this team's success is always going to depend on the playoffs. I don't see how more fighting can do anything except benefit the entertainment value of this team for the fans.

Also, you don't have to agree with me on anything if you don't want to. I don't make my posts to convince people, instead I just speak my mind.

I'm sorry but I have no clue how you deduced this from my post. The only thing detrimental Downey brings to the table is the ability to play hockey. Toughness is most certainly not something he's lacking and I never inferred that. I'm lost as to where you came up with that.

You never said Downey was detrimental to team toughness, but that was the general feel of your post to me.

I want to see the Wings fighting more in the regular season, which is where a guy like Downey comes in. The regular seasons have become boring lately, since this team's success is always going to depend on the playoffs. I don't see how more fighting can do anything except benefit the entertainment value of this team for the fans.

Also, you don't have to agree with me on anything if you don't want to. I don't make my posts to convince people, instead I just speak my mind.

The majority of people don't see the regular season as boring when there isn't a great deal of fights. I get that you do, but that's just not the entertainment I'm looking for when I watch hockey. It's a bonus, but not the reason I watch.

You never said Downey was detrimental to team toughness, but that was the general feel of your post to me.

I want to see the Wings fighting more in the regular season, which is where a guy like Downey comes in. The regular seasons have become boring lately, since this team's success is always going to depend on the playoffs. I don't see how more fighting can do anything except benefit the entertainment value of this team for the fans.

Also, you don't have to agree with me on anything if you don't want to. I don't make my posts to convince people, instead I just speak my mind.

I never implied that I did have to agree with you. I'm just speaking my mind as well, and my opinion happens to differ from yours. That's the point of a message board. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me otherwise this place would be rather dull.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

I told myself I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but there is some good conversations going on and I wanted to touch real quick on deterrence. All the anti-enforcers on these boards state that there is no such thing as a player deterring another from cheap shots or runs. Quick, true story, I was at the first game against Nashville last year and Tootoo was on the ice for the first time. Once he got out there, Babcock immediately sent the fourth line out and Downey went straight up to Jordin and starting talking to him behind the play. They could have been rapping about the weather or good bars to go to in the area, but alls I know is that Downey said a few things, challenged him, Tootoo declined and skated away. Mind you, all this was not caught on camera. The rest of the game Tootoo wasn't pulling his typical BS and for the most part was calm against us for the rest of the season. I have a feeling Aaron probably told him that his s*** won't be tolerated this year and if he does pull anything he'll get his ass beat. All that said, I don't need to see brawls or fights every game, I just like the comfort in knowing we have someone there if an opposing player is feeling like taking liberties.

[sagnam 0]

I told myself I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but there is some good conversations going on and I wanted to touch real quick on deterrence. All the anti-enforcers on these boards state that there is no such thing as a player deterring another from cheap shots or runs.

Downey was in the lineup when Laperriere hurt Lidstom last year. So much for deterrence.

[eva unit zero 271]

I told myself I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but there is some good conversations going on and I wanted to touch real quick on deterrence. All the anti-enforcers on these boards state that there is no such thing as a player deterring another from cheap shots or runs. Quick, true story, I was at the first game against Nashville last year and Tootoo was on the ice for the first time. Once he got out there, Babcock immediately sent the fourth line out and Downey went straight up to Jordin and starting talking to him behind the play. They could have been rapping about the weather or good bars to go to in the area, but alls I know is that Downey said a few things, challenged him, Tootoo declined and skated away. Mind you, all this was not caught on camera. The rest of the game Tootoo wasn't pulling his typical BS and for the most part was calm against us for the rest of the season. I have a feeling Aaron probably told him that his s*** won't be tolerated this year and if he does pull anything he'll get his ass beat. All that said, I don't need to see brawls or fights every game, I just like the comfort in knowing we have someone there if an opposing player is feeling like taking liberties.

1) You're making an assumption based on what you think happened that supports your position. Not a very scientific way to proceed.

2) Ian Laperriere hit and injured Nick Lidstrom with Downey in the lineup. No deterrence.

Enforcers can sometimes serve as deterrence, but players who are really gonna go out there and intentionally injure players and throw cheap shots are going to do it regardless of whether there are no enforcers on the other roster, or whether there are a few enforcers on the ice at the moment. It doesn't matter. They know what's coming if they intentionally hurt someone.

[Opie 308]

Let me ask a question, Why are we having this debate again, I know I have been elbow deep in it too, but something just occurred to me:

Nothing has changed in regards to an enforcer.

Downey was on the team last year, he is on the team this year.

He cleared waivers last year, he cleared waivers this year.

He played 53 games last year, he will most likely see 40 or so games again, if not him than Mac another enforcer.

So what exactly is the problem, why is it that we are talking like the team has no enforcer what so ever or that Downey has been cut?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Let me ask a question, Why are we having this debate again, I know I have been elbow deep in it too, but something just occurred to me:

Nothing has changed in regards to an enforcer.

Downey was on the team last year, he is on the team this year.

He cleared waivers last year, he cleared waivers this year.

He played 53 games last year, he will most likely see 40 or so games again, if not him than Mac another enforcer.

So what exactly is the problem, why is it that we are talking like the team has no enforcer what so ever or that Downey has been cut?

Because this is a message board where people constantly debate things over and over. This isn't like some contest where one party wins and the game is over. There are no winners or losers here, we're just arguing.

It's either this or arguments about whether Sammy really sucks or not. Just pick your poison.

[Heaton 1]

Because this is a message board where people constantly debate things over and over. This isn't like some contest where one party wins and the game is over. There are no winners or losers here, we're just arguing.

It's either this or arguments about whether Sammy really sucks or not. Just pick your poison.

That's not really true, there's only losers in debates like this and I'm standing on the top of the mountain.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Downey was in the lineup when Laperriere hurt Lidstom last year. So much for deterrence.

1) You're making an assumption based on what you think happened that supports your position. Not a very scientific way to proceed.

2) Ian Laperriere hit and injured Nick Lidstrom with Downey in the lineup. No deterrence.

Enforcers can sometimes serve as deterrence, but players who are really gonna go out there and intentionally injure players and throw cheap shots are going to do it regardless of whether there are no enforcers on the other roster, or whether there are a few enforcers on the ice at the moment. It doesn't matter. They know what's coming if they intentionally hurt someone.

Take note this was a hit in front of the referee that was not penalized. I remember a lot of people on these boards stating they thought it was a legal hit. Should players have to pay the piper for legal hits? If that were the case Kronwall would always have to answer the bell. Downey went after Laperriere because he stated people shouldn't be running 5-time Norris Trophy defensemen. I agree, but again not a cheap shot. My argument is deterrence for cheap shots and liberties. We view things differently and that's what these boards are for. We can try and sell each other up and down the river, but unfortunately people aren't going to change sides on what they believe in.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Let me ask a question, Why are we having this debate again, I know I have been elbow deep in it too, but something just occurred to me:

Nothing has changed in regards to an enforcer.

Downey was on the team last year, he is on the team this year.

He cleared waivers last year, he cleared waivers this year.

He played 53 games last year, he will most likely see 40 or so games again, if not him than Mac another enforcer.

So what exactly is the problem, why is it that we are talking like the team has no enforcer what so ever or that Downey has been cut?

True True. Thanks Opie, I needed this to get back into reality. Back to work now, have a good day folks.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Downey was in the lineup when Laperriere hurt Lidstom last year. So much for deterrence.

Which resulted in Downey pummeling Ian to the ice later that game. Lidstrom publicly stated afterwords that Downey is refreshing to have on the bench during the game. It makes his teammates feel more open on the ice.

Also, are you going to totally eliminate injuries with an enforcer? Of course not sagnam, that's ignorant to elude to. However, will you minimize some or deter others? Absolutely.

Downey needs to be on the bench against tough opponents. I'm not looking forward to watching us play the blues this year when Janssen and King are drilling opponents ever 5 minutes.

As a new member here, but longtime reader I am quite intrigued by the intelligent posters (there are some I could list) and very ignorant 'legends' as far as the game of hockey goes. As a person that had two relatives play pro hockey, myself a hockey player (former), and a season ticket holder in years past... I can't understand the failed understanding of the purpose of having an enforcer. No, not a goon, but an enforcer.

Good day.

p.s. If my post count ever becomes higher than 100; please warn me that I have spent too much time away from my office job.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

To refresh your memory... Ian was held accountable for his Lidstrom hit.

[norrisnick 1]

To refresh your memory... Ian was held accountable for his Lidstrom hit.

And Nick still missed 6 games.