Would you trade

[Dabura 12,232]

Oh yeah, and he whines.

[obey86 0]

All the Pistons do is whine and that doesn't seem to stop people from liking them. I'll take a whining superstar on my team any day of the weak as long as he produces. There isn't a player that wouldn't be liked if they came to the Wings as long as they produce numbers and wins, whining nonwithstanding.

[going_top_shelf 6]

f*** no. The Euro Twins (and possibly Johan) are worth 1000 crosbys.

[Dabura 12,232]

All the Pistons do is whine and that doesn't seem to stop people from liking them. I'll take a whining superstar on my team any day of the weak as long as he produces. There isn't a player that wouldn't be liked if they came to the Wings as long as they produce numbers and wins, whining nonwithstanding.

I was half-joking.

The dude does whine, though. A lot. At least Feds did his whining off the ice.

[bogeygolfer 4]

Apparently you missed my point. You cannot go wrong with having EITHER player. They are both obviously very skilled and in the top 5, 10 players in the league. Put either player on the Wings and you could win a championship. I know it is impossible but if someone was to somehow quantify each player's "skill" level on a scale of 1-100 the difference would hardly be noticeable. Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats. So being essentially the same skill-wise why wouldn't you trade for the player who is 8 years younger? This would allow the team to win NOW and win LATER. You are making it sound like if we had Crosby right now we couldn't compete for a championship and would have to wait until he was in his prime.

I never said I would never make a one for one trade, but its hard to look at the trade in a vacuum, if you want to factor in the age, then lets factor in the cap aswell, it would put the wings over, therefore it couldnt happen without additional moves. Do it at the end of the season? well datsyuks got a no trade and zetterberg is a free agent. Crosby took his team to the stanley cup finals last year, they definately 'competed' but they ended up losing. I never said crosby is garbage, its just RIGHT AT THIS EXACT MOMENT datsyuk and zetterberg better. factoring out age, salary, ego, suporting cast, and marketablility ofcoarse.

[bogeygolfer 4]

Crosby was a +18 to Z's +30 last season which really isn't that big of a difference especially considering that if Crosby didn't miss a bunch of games it could have been a little bit higher.

well you also have to remember crosby doesnt kill penalties and zetterberg the 1st forward I'd want on the ice during a 5 on 3. That is a huge bonus to him. And that is not something reflected in the plus-minus. plus-minus is good stat but you have to look a the whole line of stats to understand it.

[Guest Four]

Can someone find the video of Homer saying "who?"

PLEEASEEEEE

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Nicely stated Hank.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves either. We got this 'classy' reputation based on how the players are treated. It came more from Illitch, Holland and Yzerman than the players on the ice.

Maltby will never, ever be classified as classy. He wears a shield down to his knees, starts crap but never, EVER backs it up by dropping the gloves and is constantly yapping to opponents and referees.

In terms of Maltby, I never saw it happen during his old days but I'm going by with what I read in here that he suffered a major eye injury during his Edmonton years. So I understand to a certain degree to where he stops like that, but I get where you are coming from.

Draper can also yap with the best of them. I see him crying to refs all the time as well.

Yep, and even our beloved Yzerman, The Captain, complained every now and then. Pretty much anybody and everybody complains during a game or to the press at some point in their career, regardless of the athlete, regardless of the sport. The ZOMG CROSBY IS A WHINER line doesn't really do much for me since pretty much everybody whines.

Kronwall, while I love the guy, has many questionable hits by leaving his feet, and I guarantee if he was playing for another team and laid one of these jump-hits to Zetts or Dats he would be enemy #1 on these boards.

Yep.

And what about Bertuzzi? I only saw 2 people on these boards that hated him here because of his reputation. Almost everyone else loved him in the Winged wheel. This guy's personality was described as cantankerous on his best days, yet he fit in fine and the crowd loved him. And Holland would have loved to have him back as well.

I never thought too highly of Bertuzzi obviously due to what happened with him years and years ago but I never really had hateful or venegeful thoughts concerning him. I was a little excited and curious when he got traded to the Wings, but it was pretty funny/ironic to me how pre-Wings, so many people loathed Bertuzzi like crazy, but all those thoughts changed for a lot of people during his brief stint at Detroit. Now, not so much as he's generally disliked again I think.

I like this site, but it's appalling to see the rose-colored glasses that many wear.

Not all of our players are classy. Not all play clean 100% of the time.

What separates the Wings from most other organizations is the class of our owner who is commited to building a great team every year and how he's treated his players, managers and coaches.

We could trade for Jarku Ruttu, Chris Simon and Ryan Holweg and we'd still be a classy organization.

Not taking Crosby because he gets ticked at the refs or refuses to blow the Wings after losing the first two games of the Cup finals is ludicrous. This kid would do nothing but give 1000% every game. And would definitely help sell more tickets too.

While I love Zetts and Dats, you couldn't say that about either of them after their first 2 or 3 seasons.

Yep.

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edit: absolutely not!

i wouldn't. that bear is the funniest thing i've ever seen. where is it from?

[Dabura 12,232]

I like this site, but it's appalling to see the rose-colored glasses that many wear.

Not all of our players are classy. Not all play clean 100% of the time.

What separates the Wings from most other organizations is the class of our owner who is commited to building a great team every year and how he's treated his players, managers and coaches.

We could trade for Jarku Ruttu, Chris Simon and Ryan Holweg and we'd still be a classy organization.

Not taking Crosby because he gets ticked at the refs or refuses to blow the Wings after losing the first two games of the Cup finals is ludicrous. This kid would do nothing but give 1000% every game. And would definitely help sell more tickets too.

While I love Zetts and Dats, you couldn't say that about either of them after their first 2 or 3 seasons.

Yep.

Nope.

Firstly: "appalling"? "Rose-colored glasses"? Seriously? Wings fans on a Wings board saying they wouldn't trade two of their three best players for a guy they steamrolled over three months ago (and who took it like a baby half the time) is...appalling? If it's the "whiner" card you're getting bent out of shape over, good news: it's mostly facetiousness. The bad news? Maltby's an agitator; he gets paid to whine. So a comparison like that is wack. Besides, he's part of the family here, so of course people here are going to side with him. (God forbid!)

If anyone's wearing blinders here, it's the people who seem to think a straight-up Z&D-for-Crosby trade would make perfect sense and would necessarily be a wholly positive move. I think I saw someone say we would basically be guaranteed the Cup this year if management pulled the trigger on this deal right now. I don't know, maybe people have forgotten or simply don't know this, but building and running a successful team and franchise is largely a matter of handling considerations and variables. Sure, you'd be getting the league's golden boy in return for two superstars, and that sounds like a pretty decent deal when it's phrased that way. But you've got to realize how much Datsyuk and Zetterberg really mean to this team: they're respected Motown leaders; franchise faces; "diamonds in the rough"; poster boys for the way the Wings play hockey and conduct themselves; essential parts of this defense-first, puck-possession machine. You ship them off and you're not just shipping off two great players; you're losing a big part of this team's identity.

Now, maybe I just watched the wrong SCF or something, but I'm pretty sure that identity, that system is fresh off embarrassing Sid & Co.'s. I like to think that's worth something, and that saying so (and calling Sid a whiner while I'm at it) isn't "appalling."

Sheesh.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Dabura

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Yep.

Nope.

Firstly: "appalling"? "Rose-colored glasses"? Seriously? Wings fans on a Wings board saying they wouldn't trade two of their three best players for a guy they steamrolled over three months ago (and who took it like a baby half the time) is...appalling? If it's the "whiner" card you're getting bent out of shape over, good news: it's mostly facetiousness. The bad news? Maltby's an agitator; he gets paid to whine. So a comparison like that is wack. Besides, he's part of the family here, so of course people here are going to side with him. (God forbid!)

If anyone's wearing blinders here, it's the people who seem to think a straight-up Z&D-for-Crosby trade would make perfect sense and would necessarily be a wholly positive move. I think I saw someone say we would basically be guaranteed the Cup this year if management pulled the trigger on this deal right now. I don't know, maybe people have forgotten or simply don't know this, but building and running a successful team and franchise is largely a matter of handling considerations and variables. Sure, you'd be getting the league's golden boy in return for two superstars, and that sounds like a pretty decent deal when it's phrased that way. But you've got to realize how much Datsyuk and Zetterberg really mean to this team: they're respected Motown leaders; franchise faces; "diamonds in the rough"; poster boys for the way the Wings play hockey and conduct themselves; essential parts of this defense-first, puck-possession machine. You ship them off and you're not just shipping off two great players; you're losing a big part of this team's identity.

Now, maybe I just watched the wrong SCF or something, but I'm pretty sure that identity, that system is fresh off embarrassing Sid & Co.'s. I like to think that's worth something, and that saying so (and calling Sid a whiner while I'm at it) isn't "appalling."

Sheesh.

The whiner card is really getting overplayed. He's a 21 year old boy still and has a ton of passion for the game.

Let me just throw this out there. Arguably the greatest player to ever step in the Red Wings locker room in terms of leadership and talent (Steve Yzerman) had his character and game questioned similarly at a bit of an older age. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but the kid is 21.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I love this thread, some very good debate on both sides......

BUT....

for those of you who say you wouldn't trade Z OR Dats straight up for Crosby are insane IMO

[obey86 0]

Yep.

Nope.

Firstly: "appalling"? "Rose-colored glasses"? Seriously? Wings fans on a Wings board saying they wouldn't trade two of their three best players for a guy they steamrolled over three months ago (and who took it like a baby half the time) is...appalling? If it's the "whiner" card you're getting bent out of shape over, good news: it's mostly facetiousness. The bad news? Maltby's an agitator; he gets paid to whine. So a comparison like that is wack. Besides, he's part of the family here, so of course people here are going to side with him. (God forbid!)

If anyone's wearing blinders here, it's the people who seem to think a straight-up Z&D-for-Crosby trade would make perfect sense and would necessarily be a wholly positive move. I think I saw someone say we would basically be guaranteed the Cup this year if management pulled the trigger on this deal right now. I don't know, maybe people have forgotten or simply don't know this, but building and running a successful team and franchise is largely a matter of handling considerations and variables. Sure, you'd be getting the league's golden boy in return for two superstars, and that sounds like a pretty decent deal when it's phrased that way. But you've got to realize how much Datsyuk and Zetterberg really mean to this team: they're respected Motown leaders; franchise faces; "diamonds in the rough"; poster boys for the way the Wings play hockey and conduct themselves; essential parts of this defense-first, puck-possession machine. You ship them off and you're not just shipping off two great players; you're losing a big part of this team's identity.

Now, maybe I just watched the wrong SCF or something, but I'm pretty sure that identity, that system is fresh off embarrassing Sid & Co.'s. I like to think that's worth something, and that saying so (and calling Sid a whiner while I'm at it) isn't "appalling."

Sheesh.

I'm pretty sure that no one said they would do a 2 for 1. This post has turned into a discussion of 1 for 1 more than anything.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

I would do it.... would you?

Discuss.

I have to assume you are the kind of person who has an adjustable mortgage and stock in Lehman Borthers. You might as well say, "I'd trade the Stanley Cup for Crosby." It's just dumb.

[The Secret 304]

I have to assume you are the kind of person who has an adjustable mortgage and stock in Lehman Borthers. You might as well say, "I'd trade the Stanley Cup for Crosby." It's just dumb.

If I'm not mistaken we won the last year and there is no guarantee, even with the team we are icing this year, that we will win again... so no there would be no trading of the Cup. And a trade like this, although it would not happen, would give us the greatest up and coming talent for many more years then we will have D and Z playing at this level. There are always so many variables that could come into play, ask Lindros if he thought he'd be retired at such a young age... or fischer or primeau. But as is, I would take the risk. Its just a fun tread meant to have something to talk about. I'm not complaining at how D or Z are playing but its fun to think about. Someone offered a Franzen + Hudler for Heatley trade... I would give this some serious consideration but seeing how franzen is coming along he may naturally reach Heatley's level of play... I wouldn't at all be sad to see hulder traded. I guess there are some of us that would like to see a bit more of a North American influence brought back into our game, some more players that would fit into our system and naturally have grit built into their game. I think Crosby, maybe a whiner, but definately has more fight in his game. I don't mean drop the gloves fight I mean going into the tough area's and throwing a check to get the puck and make a play. Try to sit back and watch a few Penguins games without judgement on Crosby and really watch all the little things that he does do so well and you will see!

Someone earlier suggested that we embarrassed the Pens in the SCF. I beg to differ, I watched a pretty great series. A part from the first 2 games I was never comfortable that we had any game in hand. I was nervous at each penalty called against us and how many games were you actually in your seat for nearing the games end? I couldn't even watch the TV for the last few seconds of the very last game! I think the better team won, but not by embarassing the Pens but by hanging on for a tough fought win!

Just another wishful thought would be to see Milan Lucic from Boston come to Detroit.... I Love that kid too and we could definately fit him in. I think I would buy and wear a Lucic Jersey if he played for us.

Edited October 21, 2008 by The Secret

[hamip1998 3]

A very fair question.

However, talents like Crosby always rise to the top.

It's also easy to speculate that Gretzky would have never scored 200+ points 4 times if he didn't play for the Oilers. Probably not. Sather loved to run and gun and gave him the partners to do so.

All I know is, I've seen Crosby do things with the puck, and make plays, that I haven't seen anyone else in this era do. He's a 21 year old kid, who can dominate in a league that is ultra-conservative.

If he can remain healthy, it'll be interesting to see what he can do 6 years from now. Look at Dats and Zetts. Both weren't even close to the NHL at 21-years old. At 23 they were both 3rd line players.

It wasn't until their mid-20's that they were emerging as top-line players. And both played on an extremely gifted team with loads of talent.

Like I said, he would still be great, but I am not sure that he would quite have the numbers he is posting now. Whenever I watch Eastern conf. games, the teams seem play more wide open offensively and are a little less defensively oriented. Granted, there are still some stellar two-way players in the East (Brin D'Amour obviously comes to mind), but it seems to me that a lot of what I see when I watch teams in the East play is more energy focused on offense and less on defense, especially by the forwards. I think Crosby and Ovechkin both benefit from playing more teams that are less defensively oriented.

As far as how good Crosby is going to be in 6 yrs., it's conceivable that his offensive capabilities have peaked. That's not saying that they are going to decline any time soon, but this COULD be as good as it gets for him offensively. Even if that's true, most players still won't reach his level of offensive output. His real potential for growth is obviously in his defensive game. Kind of like what Stevie had to do early in his career, Sid may have to sacrifice being a point producing machine to be a more complete player in order to finally reach the brass ring. The question is, will he do so?

We don't know what Crosby in his final form is going to be. Is the potential there? Sure. Is the outcome decided? Certainly not. Again, a lot of things change in 6 yrs. Anyone with kids can tell you that the maturation process doesn't follow a steady curve upward. Saying that he is going to be n% better than he is today based upon his progress thus far isn't an accurate way to gauge where is going to be with his game down the road.

Dats and Z both took time to mature. That growth process made them into better all-around players RIGHT NOW than Crosby, numbers aside. We know what we have in the Euro twins. Like the old saying says, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. That's why I wouldn't trade for Crosby.

[Dabura 12,232]

I'm pretty sure that no one said they would do a 2 for 1. This post has turned into a discussion of 1 for 1 more than anything.

Even in regards to a one-for-one, I don't like some of the logic being thrown around. Example:

Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats.

It's about more than trading a superstar for a superstar.

The whiner card is really getting overplayed. He's a 21 year old boy still and has a ton of passion for the game.

Let me just throw this out there. Arguably the greatest player to ever step in the Red Wings locker room in terms of leadership and talent (Steve Yzerman) had his character and game questioned similarly at a bit of an older age. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but the kid is 21.

You seemed to have missed the part where I talked about facetiousness. (For the record, though, Yzerman ultimately went above and beyond the call of duty and brought the goods like few ever have and ever will. Crosby won't necessarily become the next Yzerman. If we're going to talk about played-out cards, I'll cast my vote for the "Yeah, well, Yzerman ___, so Crosby ___" one.)

Someone earlier suggested that we embarrassed the Pens in the SCF. I beg to differ, I watched a pretty great series.

The Pens were supposed to overwhelm the Wings with their "superior offense" and "superior defense" and "hot goalie." Instead, the Wings held them scoreless for the first two games and sent them packing in six (very nearly five). Maybe not "embarrassing," but certainly far from what most were expecting.

Hossa did bolt, after all.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Yep.

Nope.

Firstly: "appalling"? "Rose-colored glasses"? Seriously? Wings fans on a Wings board saying they wouldn't trade two of their three best players for a guy they steamrolled over three months ago (and who took it like a baby half the time) is...appalling? If it's the "whiner" card you're getting bent out of shape over, good news: it's mostly facetiousness. The bad news? Maltby's an agitator; he gets paid to whine. So a comparison like that is wack. Besides, he's part of the family here, so of course people here are going to side with him. (God forbid!)

If anyone's wearing blinders here, it's the people who seem to think a straight-up Z&D-for-Crosby trade would make perfect sense and would necessarily be a wholly positive move. I think I saw someone say we would basically be guaranteed the Cup this year if management pulled the trigger on this deal right now. I don't know, maybe people have forgotten or simply don't know this, but building and running a successful team and franchise is largely a matter of handling considerations and variables. Sure, you'd be getting the league's golden boy in return for two superstars, and that sounds like a pretty decent deal when it's phrased that way. But you've got to realize how much Datsyuk and Zetterberg really mean to this team: they're respected Motown leaders; franchise faces; "diamonds in the rough"; poster boys for the way the Wings play hockey and conduct themselves; essential parts of this defense-first, puck-possession machine. You ship them off and you're not just shipping off two great players; you're losing a big part of this team's identity.

Now, maybe I just watched the wrong SCF or something, but I'm pretty sure that identity, that system is fresh off embarrassing Sid & Co.'s. I like to think that's worth something, and that saying so (and calling Sid a whiner while I'm at it) isn't "appalling."

Sheesh.

I personally never said I thought a Datsyuk and Zetterberg trade for Crosby straight up would be a good idea. In the end, I wouldn't trade either of them for Crosby. However, the idea of trading one of them for Crosby is not that insane of an idea as much as you might think it is.

I'm not bent over shape about the whining bit at all as it happens everywhere and has happened plenty in here. You're the one that seems to be all bent out of shape about it or with what I think about it in general judging by your loud and hostile tone towards me. Why so?

Crosby whines sometimes to the referees or media. Good for him. So does pretty much everybody else. Datsyuk whined and cursed up a storm to the refs on one of Holmstrom's phantom interference calls which waived off a goal in a playoff game. I remember seeing Yzerman go apes**t one game charging out of the penalty box screaming a referee's head off during a road game years and years ago, Nashville I think. I've whined nearly every day the past few weeks about the stock market going into the crapper. Many people around where I live complained when their assessments increased well over 100% when real estate in general is in the crapper. Screech always complained when he couldn't get a date on Saved By the Bell. I had players ***** and complain to me nearly every call/no-call I made when I was a basketball and soccer ref in college. Who hasn't whined or complained at some point in their life when we don't always get our way?

You may think the whining is in gest, but plenty of people in here use the whining bit as a major factor of why they wouldn't consider having Crosby on their team, saying he doesn't present himself with "class" or "dignity", and that Wings players will never do such things. That's splitting hairs a bit too much I think. While I love my Wings, they aren't perfect gentlemen all the time, and it is pretty unrealistic to think they will be 100% perfect in behavior or etiquette. And we are the same people that whine just as much about officials or the media as the next player on any NHL or professional team. Seems pretty convenient when whining is generally frowned upon, but is all right all of a sudden when you, I, or other people in here take part in it.

Is whining a factor that defines an athlete? Of course. Is it that important? No.

Why is it that Crosby gets so much of the focus because of this? Because he's young and a captain and we recently played the Penguins in the Finals? Why not consider other leaders or players in regards to "complaining"? Why just him?

[obey86 0]

QUOTE (obey86 @ October 20, 2008 - 01:25AM)

Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats.

"It's about more than trading a superstar for a superstar."

That was EXACTLY the point I was trying to make but some other person didn't understand so I tried to put it into retarded terms like that. They are both superstars and amazing players so the difference in production between them is going to very small if there is any difference at all. THEY ARE BOTH GOING TO PRODUCE NUMBERS BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH SUPERSTARS. So whoever said you don't want to bank on Crosby's "potential" you are dumb because he is a superstar and has already proven himself.

[Spinner 6]

I wouldn't trade either one of them for Crosby. Both D and Z are two way players, they both fit well in our system, not that Crosby wouldn't, and they don't whine.

[esteef 2,679]

QUOTE (obey86 @ October 20, 2008 - 01:25AM)

Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats.

"It's about more than trading a superstar for a superstar."

That was EXACTLY the point I was trying to make but some other person didn't understand so I tried to put it into retarded terms like that. They are both superstars and amazing players so the difference in production between them is going to very small if there is any difference at all. THEY ARE BOTH GOING TO PRODUCE NUMBERS BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH SUPERSTARS. So whoever said you don't want to bank on Crosby's "potential" you are dumb because he is a superstar and has already proven himself.

NOT IN ALL AREAS OF THE GAME.

Clear now?

esteef

[CdnWingsFanEh 2]

No!

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Even in regards to a one-for-one, I don't like some of the logic being thrown around. Example:

It's about more than trading a superstar for a superstar.

You seemed to have missed the part where I talked about facetiousness. (For the record, though, Yzerman ultimately went above and beyond the call of duty and brought the goods like few ever have and ever will. Crosby won't necessarily become the next Yzerman. If we're going to talk about played-out cards, I'll cast my vote for the "Yeah, well, Yzerman ___, so Crosby ___" one.)

The Pens were supposed to overwhelm the Wings with their "superior offense" and "superior defense" and "hot goalie." Instead, the Wings held them scoreless for the first two games and sent them packing in six (very nearly five). Maybe not "embarrassing," but certainly far from what most were expecting.

Hossa did bolt, after all.

You can't always be right, buddy. Naturally when you have to throw arguments all around to different people you know you're saying something that isn't as logical as you are trying to make it.

[therock48880 14]

Someone earlier suggested that we embarrassed the Pens in the SCF. I beg to differ, I watched a pretty great series. A part from the first 2 games I was never comfortable that we had any game in hand. I was nervous at each penalty called against us and how many games were you actually in your seat for nearing the games end? I couldn't even watch the TV for the last few seconds of the very last game! I think the better team won, but not by embarassing the Pens but by hanging on for a tough fought win!

I disagree. Game three was the only game that the Pens outplayed the Wings. One game out of six. Without Fleury's heroics, that series was over in 5 because the Wings dominated that game.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I think the bias on this board is way too high sometimes. If you were to present a trade to any GM in the NHL or any of the so called experts in the hockey shows, I am sure 95% of them would take Crosby in a heartbeat for Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I love the Euro twins myself but wow at how many people wouldn't trade for one of the two faces of the NHL. Crosby at his peak will score probably close to 50 more points than either Z or Dats' best year in the league. He's already 23 points ahead three years in.