Is Babcock as good as we think he is?

[Guest Four]

Here is a question that you all can debate over with the recent play seen throughout the NHL and how the Wings are stacking up to teams like Sharks and the Ducks.

Is Babcock overrated?

Debate away.

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Personally, I feel that as much as Babcock is a great coach, a big part of The Red Wings successful game was because of Todd Mclellan and how he directed the team. I am in no way trying to take anything away from Babcock, but the Wings haven't been up to par just yet and McCrimmon just seems to be dead weight at this point. It's too early to really say anything but I think that losing Mclellan will make a huge impact throughout a great portion of this season and hopefully Babcock will be able to straighten everything out.

[Nev 1,085]

Its too early to say whether or not the current defensive failings are due to the loss of McLellan or not. It may be that, or it may be the (and I hate myself for saying this) The Cup Hangover , or it may just be a statistical blip.

Remember, the Wings were excellent defensively way before Babs & TM arrived.

Also remember Babcock has done a great job wherever he's been previously, at every level.

Having said that, in many sports a head coach is never the same once he loses his trusted assistant(s).

Bottom line - too early to tell.

[Heaton 1]

You guys do know that Babcock hired McLellan and MacLean once he got hired here right? It's not like he's been with him since he started coaching in Anahiem. All we know about McLellan is that he coached the PP (which is better now) and the forwards. We have no idea what impact he had on the defense.

The breakdowns have more to do with forwards playing less minutes, in new positions and with different linemates. If the Wings are still averaging 3 goals a game against at the All-Star break then yeah, we have a problem.

[egroen 384]

Personally, I feel that as much as Babcock is a great coach, a big part of The Red Wings successful game was because of Todd Mclellan and how he directed the team.

There is absolutely nothing to base this on. Mclellen headed the power play here... and that is one of the few aspects of the team that is doing better right now than the last few years. Everything indicates Mclellen learned a lot from Babcock, not the other way around.

Babcock had success with a craptacular '03 Ducks and at every level he has coached at, all before he ever hired Mclellen. He inherited a complacent Wings team and injected it with the drive and work ethic to start winning in the playoffs again.

[Barrie 900]

Is Babcock as good as we think he is?

Yes!

[CrossoverThrash 0]

McLellan isnt some kind of saviour, you know we did lose Scotty too no one talks about that, but regardless, there were like 2 personel changes, thats not gonna make a difference in this organization, Babcock, Holland, Stevie they can all handle themselves in this situation which happens to be atop our division as always and 3rd place in the NHL standings with the #1 PP.

[Doc Holiday 0]

McLellan is going to be a great coach but this thread is evidence of how much Wings fans are panicking right now.

Babcock is the coach that made this team what it is. He brought us from the first round chokers to a consistent playoff contender, and one that has a great shot of winning it again this year.

Detroit has played like crap, yes. They are adapting to new linemates, current players are getting old and bad, our best defenseman is in a slump, and the players have been struggling with the "less party, more business" situation right now. It is quite evident because Conklin and Hossa are playing out of their minds compared to the rest of the team and it shows.

We should be happy the adversity is coming in the start of the season instead of late April.

[Barrie 900]

We should be happy the adversity is coming in the start of the season instead of late April.

Agreed.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

McLellan is going to be a great coach but this thread is evidence of how much Wings fans are panicking right now.

Babcock is the coach that made this team what it is. He brought us from the first round chokers to a consistent playoff contender, and one that has a great shot of winning it again this year.

Detroit has played like crap, yes. They are adapting to new linemates, current players are getting old and bad, our best defenseman is in a slump, and the players have been struggling with the "less party, more business" situation right now. It is quite evident because Conklin and Hossa are playing out of their minds compared to the rest of the team and it shows.

We should be happy the adversity is coming in the start of the season instead of late April.

I think you can add Hank to Hossa and Conk, he hasn't seemed to trail off, Franzen too before the injury. Pavel is picking it up though. The only adversity weve had so far is playing without Franzen but its too early to say were are failing without him.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I think you can add Hank to Hossa and Conk, he hasn't seemed to trail off, Franzen too before the injury. Pavel is picking it up though. The only adversity weve had so far is playing without Franzen but its too early to say were are failing without him.

Hank has been doing well I will admit. However when the majority of your team flat out sucks, you can definitely attribute the insane partying to it. Though I don't remember did the Wings look like this during their 1-10 slump?

I expect by game 20 we should see the old Wings again, even by next Saturday.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Hank has been doing well I will admit. However when the majority of your team flat out sucks, you can definitely attribute the insane partying to it. Though I don't remember did the Wings look like this during their 1-10 slump?

I expect by game 20 we should see the old Wings again, even by next Saturday.

Lebda just hasn't been the same since getting utterly wasted and dropping the cup....

[Feldmarschall 9]

It never really made sense to me that the team lost its forward/PP coach and hired a defensive specialist instead. Was Babcock handling the defense before and has now stepped primarily to coaching up front while McCrimmon takes the D? If McClellan had the offense before and we had the best defense in the league, why did we hire a defensive coach from one of the worst teams in the league after his departure? Where was the sense in all this?

There is a definite Cup hangover in Detroit, but so much of the defense just looks like bad coaching right now - the bad passes, weak clearing attempts, bad man coverage... It looks like bad coaching and lazy players. Whoever coached the D last year needs to step it up and start over with the boys - they look like they could use some pee-wee level stop/start scrimmaging.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

McLellan is going to be a great coach but this thread is evidence of how much Wings fans are panicking right now.

Babcock is the coach that made this team what it is. He brought us from the first round chokers to a consistent playoff contender, and one that has a great shot of winning it again this year.

Detroit has played like crap, yes. They are adapting to new linemates, current players are getting old and bad, our best defenseman is in a slump, and the players have been struggling with the "less party, more business" situation right now. It is quite evident because Conklin and Hossa are playing out of their minds compared to the rest of the team and it shows.

We should be happy the adversity is coming in the start of the season instead of late April.

No lie. I'll take a 7-2-2 record all day if this is the "adversity" I'd have to deal with in spite of a few things.

Yep, Babcock is as good as we think he is (me thinks ).

[maltbymaniac 13]

thats it i give up on you people,ill see ya agian come playoff time. when your thinking is a little better. (joking)

Edited November 2, 2008 by maltbymaniac

[Guest Four]

thats it i give up on you people,ill see ya agian come playoff time. when your thinking is a little better.

And I give up on you. Thanks for having the maturity to have a little debate instead of being a troll. No one here has knocked Babcock and it is a mere debate. If you can't take a discussion, then why the hell are you here in the first place?

Edited November 1, 2008 by Four

[VM1138 1,921]

Babcock is the greatest coach in the league right now, hands down. McClellan was big for us, but he was an assistant coach. Also, anyone who watches sports knows you can't blame the coach when things go down for a while. It's the players first, THEN the coach, because coaching is something that takes a while to have an effect on the players. We should be getting into gear any game now because Babcock has no doubt been waiting to see what happens, since it's early.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Lebda just hasn't been the same since getting utterly wasted and dropping the cup....

How useful was he before that happened?

As for Babcock, he is a good coach, and it's too early to point any fingers at him for these problems. There's too many guys not hacking it right now, and several of them happen to be amongst our best players. They need to change things around and not Babcock. All he has to do is to find the right way to light a fire under them.

[Guest Four]

How useful was he before that happened?

As for Babcock, he is a good coach, and it's too early to point any fingers at him for these problems. There's too many guys not hacking it right now, and several of them happen to be amongst our best players. They need to change things around and not Babcock. All he has to do is to find the right way to light a fire under them.

Oh no, I'm not blaming Babcock for The Red Wings poor play, I'm just wondering, after seeing the Sharks success if Mclellan actually had a bigger hand in our play than we think as assistant coach.

[uncle ovipositor 6]

As a Sharks fan, you guys are still the team to beat for the cup this year, and Babcock is a significant factor in why. Detroit's been lagging a little bit and still managing a 7-2-2 record.

At least wait until February before you start doubting the coach.

[VM1138 1,921]

Oh no, I'm not blaming Babcock for The Red Wings poor play, I'm just wondering, after seeing the Sharks success if Mclellan actually had a bigger hand in our play than we think as assistant coach.

You're forgetting that San Jose has been a REALLY good team the past few seasons, but they've never had that killer instinct. Really, all it seems McClellan has done is gotten them to keep up the pressure. So I really don't think all this can be explained away with McClellan's departure.

[robat 13]

We need Scotty back.

[Z and D for the C 712]

McLellan is going to be a great coach but this thread is evidence of how much Wings fans are panicking right now.

You can't blame them for panicing at least a little though. Last year we were #1 in goals against, right now I believe we're #25, that's a huge change. And we're not going to be able to win 16 playoffs games 6-5 in OT after trailing 4-2. We HAVE to get better defensively, and I DO THINK WE WILL, but that's the rational, and it's a reasonable one. We have showed signs of improvement though.

[rage 24]

As a Sharks fan, you guys are still the team to beat for the cup this year, and Babcock is a significant factor in why. Detroit's been lagging a little bit and still managing a 7-2-2 record.

At least wait until February before you start doubting the coach.

Good point.

I think Mike Babcock is the best coach in the league and has been for a couple of years now.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

The only issue I have with Babcock is the way he holds players accoutable. That is to say, he holds some players accountable for their play but not others.

Example 1: Jiri Hudler gets demoted not 2 games into the season after things apparently "weren't working out", yet Brett Lebda, as our #6 Dman, has been atrocious. Wheres the accountability there? Meech is every bit as good as Lebda, yet Lebda gets the minutes. I just don't understand the reasoning.

Example 2: A few games ago, Mikael Samuelsson finishes with 3-4 minutes more than Marian freaking Hossa? Thats downright unacceptable. Samuelsson, a streaky scorer at best, has gone cold and hasn't been able to put up much more than penalty time lately. Does he get reprimanded for it? Absolutely not.

Also, I have no idea where he gets off keeping the same defensive pairings together for basically all of the past 11 seasons despite how atrocious they've been. They've ALL looked terrible. Where's the risk in shaking them up? Why did it take him all of 2 games to mix up his 2nd/3rd lines yet he has yet to change up his D pairings through the majority of 11 games?

Mike Babcock is a great coach, and I dont think its his fault that we're playing this way - we know what our players are capable of and at this point the apparent root is work ethic and lazines, nothing else. But he doesn't have immunity in my eyes. I'm nitpicking of course, but I'd like to see him address the above issues with more frequency and more fairly than he has up to this point. At the end of the day, however, its nice that these are the only criticisms I have of him.

[j.hoop 64]

You're forgetting that San Jose has been a REALLY good team the past few seasons, but they've never had that killer instinct. Really, all it seems McClellan has done is gotten them to keep up the pressure. So I really don't think all this can be explained away with McClellan's departure.

i think this is exactly right. how many years in a row have they been in the playoffs? at least 3, and i think its higher. that said, ill be glad to have the focus on them, remember last year how babcock talked about us "flying under the radar"? i liked it better that way, kind of like a sleeping giant.

to southern wings fan's response: the 7-2-2 is good but not one of the seven were blockbuster dominations. they were games that could have gone either way, with us just giving that last little push to bring it over the top. im not complaining about the record, just about how that record came about.

i think mcclellan took a few of babcocks strategies and ideas, but so could of anyone who studied our tapes. imitation is the sincerest form of flattery right??

i believe we'll get back back on track soon, and i think the 4 straight goals on thursday couldn't possibly have gone unnoticed. at least 3 of them were from the sharks charging the slot receiving a pass from behind the net, and that cant possibly go on forever. lidstrom was bound to have a slump, he can't be perfect always. people tend to be more critical in the first 10, its all ive heard about watching nhl on the fly. maybe franzen means more to the second line than we've previously thought, who knows?? most of our concerns are not more than just speculation at this point. we have 71 more to go, and i dont think a full understanding can come until the all star break. its unfortunate that there isnt a way to give the younger guys a chance. we need to get past loyalty issues and start worrying about the team as a whole, and not individuals feelings. like it was stated in previous posts, when is enough going to be enough?