Hossa's Contract

[Red Crazy 201]

I want to start off by saying that I love having Hossa be a Red Wing and this is only a what if post!

If the whole goaltending issue dosen't work itself out by Feb. Ken Holland will be forced into making a change. With the Wings just about maxed at the salary cap it in a sence handcuffs Holland, he can't bring up players(without risking losing the ones going down) and he can't add one.

My question is will Hossa's contract even at a bargin turn out to be very costly in the end? The 7.45M would allow the Wings to get a top 5 goaltender and should still allow for more wiggle room then we have now. If Holland had to go after a goalie how many contracts would he have to move to do it at there current value? Lots. Hank, Sammy, and Mule will be looking for more money at the end of this year. What if the cap stays the same? or goes down?

Hossa, if he does turn out to be a rental player will be costly if roster changes are needed. Lets all hope things sort themselves out.

[scotzman 29]

Oddly enough, I was thinking the same thing.

I love Hossa on the Wings as well, but this whole thing has put us in a bind with the cap. We have no wiggle room at all. Kenny has some tough decisions to make in the next few months. He may end up standing pat and hoping for the best...

All 29 teams in the league have to be hoping our D and Goaltending continue to stink so they can see us squirm a bit... of course, that being said, we're still one of the best - as usual.

[55fan 5,133]

Hossa's salary has put a crimp in our financial freedom, that's for sure. I don't think that it will end up being a bad thing. What Hossa adds to the team is definitely worth it.

The problem is not with Hossa's salary and the lack of wiggle room, but rather, the fact that the team is not playing the way it should, thus making us wish for the wiggle room. If every member of the Wings played like he did last season, there would be no need to wonder if we need a GR player brought up unless it was because someone was on LTIR, in which case the money wouldn't be the big issue.

It's not Hossa's salary, or our closeness to the cap (caused by Hossa's salary), it's the holes that we need that salary to fill, which just shouldn't be there.

In the long run, I think it will be worth it, even if it is uncomfortable at the moment.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Of the 29 other teams in this league, NONE of them have a guy on their roster who won the cup last year.

While I don't think Hossa has been the best fit here, I think Holland made the right decision in adding a guy who wanted the cup enough to take a paycut. Where Holland really f***ed up was bringing back basically the entire cup-winning roster, adding only one new skater. He essentially ensured that we have a cup hangover this year.

Holland obviously didn't learn his lesson. You don't stick with a bunch of aging veterans who have won the cup time and time again and don't have any motivating factor to give it their all anymore. We saw this when we let guys like Shanny and Steve go. Theres a reason why guys like Dan Cleary, Dallas Drake, Darren Helm, and Val Filppula have been playoff heroes for the Wings. They weren't part of the insular community of guys who had won it all and done it all.

If Holland wants to make a move, he can. He just has to be creative through trading and he has to take a calculated risk - neither of which hes inclined to do. I love Holland, and still think he is one of the best GMs in the league, if not the best, but lets face it - Holland conducts his business in the safety of the off-season unless it comes in the form of giving up a 2nd round pick at the deadline or a Sean Avery package.

I can think of 4 or 5 trades off the top of my head that Holland could pull off without going over the cap, without giving up the future, and addressing crucial needs that we have now, and will continue to benefit us in the future. The question is, does the Detroit Red Wings organization have the balls to let go of value to get value? Probably not.

Edited December 17, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Red Crazy 201]

Of the 29 other teams in this league, NONE of them have a guy on their roster who won the cup last year.

While I don't think Hossa has been the best fit here, I think Holland made the right decision in adding a guy who wanted the cup enough to take a paycut. Where Holland really f***ed up was bringing back basically the entire cup-winning roster, adding only one new skater. He essentially ensured that we have a cup hangover this year.

Holland obviously didn't learn his lesson. You don't stick with a bunch of aging veterans who have won the cup time and time again and don't have any motivating factor to give it their all anymore. We saw this when we let guys like Shanny and Steve go. Theres a reason why guys like Dan Cleary, Dallas Drake, Darren Helm, and Val Filppula have been playoff heroes for the Wings. They weren't part of the insular community of guys who had won it all and done it all.

If Holland wants to make a move, he can. He just has to be creative through trading and he has to take a calculated risk - neither of which hes inclined to do. I love Holland, and still think he is one of the best GMs in the league, if not the best, but lets face it - Holland conducts his business in the safety of the off-season unless it comes in the form of giving up a 2nd round pick at the deadline or a Sean Avery package.

I can think of 4 or 5 trades off the top of my head that Holland could pull off without going over the cap, without giving up the future, and addressing crucial needs that we have now, and will continue to benefit us in the future. The question is, does the Detroit Red Wings organization have the balls to let go of value to get value? Probably not.

I am not doubting you. Please share with us how you would get a top notch goalie and what you would give up to do it.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I am not doubting you. Please share with us how you would get a top notch goalie and what you would give up to do it.

I wasn't talking top notch goalies. In fact, I'm not a member of the club that says having a top 10 goalie is going to fix our problems. Our problems stem from motivation and defense. Both those issues can be addressed without adding a goalie. In fact, Holland himself said last year - when the media was questioning whether the Wings could carry Osgood to a cup - that if you have an All-Star team overall, you don't need an All-Star goalie. And hes right. Too much emphasis is placed on the goaltending position as the be all and end all of a good hockey team. And I can't think of a single good fit for a goaltender here, despite the ones mentioned here, which can pretty much be attributed to a "grass is greener on the other side" approach. Anderson, Vokoun, Bryzgalov, and Halak would not do any better with the Wings than Osgood or Conklin are. They don't have the ego to withstand the pressure of the spotlight combined with a team playing incredibly poor defense. Thomas won't be traded. Backstrom is a decent option but we don't have a possible 6M to tie up in goaltending next year. The Wings won't trade Osgood, and Backstrom would demand around 4M.

I will, however, be willing to jump on the "goaltender as savior" bandwagon once Lidstrom retires. There will never be another Nick Lidstrom, and if there is, we probably won't draft him, and the number one place to compensate for Listrom's loss will be in net.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I don't understand the whole changing the team ONLY because they may not be motivated. You have a team that dominated in the regular season and playoffs. A dumb ******* cup hangover shouldn't keep you from sticking to a system that works well.

And I'd like to hear these 4 or 5 trades that could make this team better.

[TheOwl 77]

The Penguins made a huge mistake last season signing Malkin to such a insane deal. They basically have no cap space right now, the cap won't go up significantly, and Malkin and Crosby are both gonna get paid 8.5 million a season. Plus their goalie, another 6 million. Their screwed. And Detroit will be too if they sign Hossa and Zetterberg. Zetterberg is the future.

Giving out these huge contracts long term contracts assumes one thing, the cap won't go down. Either way, keeping Franzen, Zetterberg, Hudler and Sammy could probably be easily done. Doing that would secure their forwards for the next few years, the defense is signed up for a few years. The only thing missing is a goalie. Osgood may be gone by the end of this season. Is Conklin the answer? Or Howard? Detroit needs a goalie. Forwards will come and go, new draft picks can be brought up, but a proven goalie isn't something we have even down the line.

[Bannedforlife 403]

I don't understand the whole changing the team ONLY because they may not be motivated. You have a team that dominated in the regular season and playoffs. A dumb ******* cup hangover shouldn't keep you from sticking to a system that works well.

And I'd like to hear these 4 or 5 trades that could make this team better.

McLellan for McCrimmon

[South Dakota wings fan 7]

Of the 29 other teams in this league, NONE of them have a guy on their roster who won the cup last year.

While I don't think Hossa has been the best fit here, I think Holland made the right decision in adding a guy who wanted the cup enough to take a paycut. Where Holland really f***ed up was bringing back basically the entire cup-winning roster, adding only one new skater. He essentially ensured that we have a cup hangover this year.

Holland obviously didn't learn his lesson. You don't stick with a bunch of aging veterans who have won the cup time and time again and don't have any motivating factor to give it their all anymore. We saw this when we let guys like Shanny and Steve go. Theres a reason why guys like Dan Cleary, Dallas Drake, Darren Helm, and Val Filppula have been playoff heroes for the Wings. They weren't part of the insular community of guys who had won it all and done it all.

If Holland wants to make a move, he can. He just has to be creative through trading and he has to take a calculated risk - neither of which hes inclined to do. I love Holland, and still think he is one of the best GMs in the league, if not the best, but lets face it - Holland conducts his business in the safety of the off-season unless it comes in the form of giving up a 2nd round pick at the deadline or a Sean Avery package.

I can think of 4 or 5 trades off the top of my head that Holland could pull off without going over the cap, without giving up the future, and addressing crucial needs that we have now, and will continue to benefit us in the future. The question is, does the Detroit Red Wings organization have the balls to let go of value to get value? Probably not.

I agree with the idea of churning the roster to bring in "hungry" players to keep your vets from getting complacent. But who would YOU not brought back this year? Cleary hasn't played poorly this year. Flip has struggled due to a demotion from adding Hossa. Lilja has been good. I do think Stewart has gotten a little cup hangover after his new deal. The players themsleves talked about having a window to do something special, and how they knew they couldn't stay together forever. Maybe Kenny thought they could overcome a hangover? Time will tell, but the Sharks look hungry right now.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Of the 29 other teams in this league, NONE of them have a guy on their roster who won the cup last year.

While I don't think Hossa has been the best fit here, I think Holland made the right decision in adding a guy who wanted the cup enough to take a paycut. Where Holland really f***ed up was bringing back basically the entire cup-winning roster, adding only one new skater. He essentially ensured that we have a cup hangover this year.

Holland obviously didn't learn his lesson. You don't stick with a bunch of aging veterans who have won the cup time and time again and don't have any motivating factor to give it their all anymore. We saw this when we let guys like Shanny and Steve go. Theres a reason why guys like Dan Cleary, Dallas Drake, Darren Helm, and Val Filppula have been playoff heroes for the Wings. They weren't part of the insular community of guys who had won it all and done it all.

If Holland wants to make a move, he can. He just has to be creative through trading and he has to take a calculated risk - neither of which hes inclined to do. I love Holland, and still think he is one of the best GMs in the league, if not the best, but lets face it - Holland conducts his business in the safety of the off-season unless it comes in the form of giving up a 2nd round pick at the deadline or a Sean Avery package.

I can think of 4 or 5 trades off the top of my head that Holland could pull off without going over the cap, without giving up the future, and addressing crucial needs that we have now, and will continue to benefit us in the future. The question is, does the Detroit Red Wings organization have the balls to let go of value to get value? Probably not.

So you know better than Kenny? RIGHT......

[egroen 384]

Either way, keeping Franzen, Zetterberg, Hudler and Sammy could probably be easily done. Doing that would secure their forwards for the next few years, the defense is signed up for a few years.

No, it will be impossible.

You can keep Zetterberg and Franzen if you trade Filppula and let Samuelsson and Hudler go.

Or you can keep Zetterberg, Filppula, one of Samuelsson or Hudler and let Franzen go.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54475

[sureWhyNot 19]

I think it was the right choice, not to mention a option you really cannot turn down. One of the most coveted offensive powers in the game wants to come to your team, and wants a 1 yr deal which works out to being affordable to the extent we didn't have to change anything we already had set.

I love Hossa, and I love the signing. Without him I see us struggling equally as bad (that is minus his 16 goals.)

[Seraph 240]

Hossa is well worth the lack of wiggle room. He's one of the BIG reasons we have won despite our crappy play. And that MIGHT be a part of the problem.

The fact is, we are playing horribly. The goaltending is awful. The defense is lackluster, but we're STILL WINNING. What would motivate anyone to play better hockey when they are still winning? Nothing. Having Hossa to bail us out by chipping one or even two goals is not helping.

I think getting into a rut would be the best thing for us right now. I think we need to lose in order to learn how to win again.

Edited December 17, 2008 by The Nephilim

[scotzman 29]

Truth is, I could see us losing Z, the Mule, Huds (RFA) & Hossa if things do go well the rest of the season and into the playoffs. If a couple of teams back a truckload of money up to these guys, what can we do?

We need to start bringing up some of these young guys, seeing what they've got and locking them up long term for a little less money like Flip & Kronner.

Back on topic, the Hossa contract has made it tough, but I love having him for this season at least. If the team can get back to it's normal form we'll be just fine. All I care is that we are in good form in April, May and June (if necessary).

[Nev 1,085]

I think the Lilja/Stuart contracts really hamstrung us more tbh. Lilja was resigned because it was thought we wouldn't keep Stuart. When we did it left us with a glut of D-men and no wriggle room - because lets be honest if we were $1M under the cap then 1 or 2 of Leino/Helm/Abdelkader/Ericsson would be on the team and providing some much needed energy and enthusiasm.

[TheOwl 77]

No, it will be impossible.

You can keep Zetterberg and Franzen if you trade Filppula and let Samuelsson and Hudler go.

Or you can keep Zetterberg, Filppula, one of Samuelsson or Hudler and let Franzen go.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54475

Nothing's impossible, you're assuming how much these guys will want. A lot of these guys especially Sammy has a lot of points because he's on the PP with Zetterberg. Either way, getting rid of Stuart is a possibility, or Flippula, or both. Getting rid of both to make room for Franzen, Hudler, Sammy, and Zetterberg would be well worth it. Especially since Leino is their for around 1 million. How much could Hudler possibly want? Not as much as Franzen, who will probably get 4-5 million. The team you suggest in you're previous post looks awful. Replacing Hudler, Franzen and Hossa for cap space for Zetterberg and Sammy. Detroit would probably miss the play-offs with those 3 gone, seeing how badly Osgood and Conklin have been, and more then likely continue to be.

Either way, Detroit is spending way too much on this shotty Defense. 3.75 million of Stuart could go right to Franzen. Flippula and Hossa's salary could go right to Zetterberg, Hudler and Sammy.

Datysuk isn't really benefiting from playing with Hossa anyways. Everytime he gets the puck, right to Hossa. I really don't think Hossa is making as big a difference as everyone thinks.

Edited December 17, 2008 by TheOwl

[scotzman 29]

Either way, getting rid of Stuart is a possibility, or Flippula, or both. Getting rid of both to make room for Franzen, Hudler, Sammy, and Zetterberg would be well worth it.

Either way, Detroit is spending way too much on this shotty Defense. 3.75 million of Stuart could go right to Franzen. Flippula and Hossa's salary could go right to Zetterberg, Hudler and Sammy.

Why would you get rid of Stuart? Did you notice the other D-man that we pay like $5 or $6 Million a year to? Rafalski is playing way worse than Stuart. Lilja is cheap, as are Lebda and Chelios. Nick and Rafalski are the big ticket boys on the D.

Either way, Kenny has a real mess on his hands this Summer.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I don't understand the whole changing the team ONLY because they may not be motivated. You have a team that dominated in the regular season and playoffs. A dumb ******* cup hangover shouldn't keep you from sticking to a system that works well.

And I'd like to hear these 4 or 5 trades that could make this team better.

What do you not understand about that? Its something that has been wrong with the Wings for YEARS. They go through cycles where they win and grow unmotivated. Then you bring in new, fresh faces, and just like that they're playing with hunger and desire. Why do you think shedding guys like Shanny and Steve made such a big difference? And bringing in guys like Stuart and Drake?

This isn't a hard concept to grasp. People just must have short memories. Does anyone else remember the thread that ripped Chris Pronger apart for making a pre-playoff comment about "oh my god I can't believe the playoffs are here. It seems like just yesterday we were hoisting the cup?"

Motivation is not something you just turn on. Hard work isn't something you can just suddenly have the drive to do game in and game out. Where do you think the term "Stanley Cup Hangover" came from.

Why do you think the only team to repeat in the last 15 years was also "ironically" fighting for fallen teammates and organization members who would never play another game of hockey in their lives again?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I agree with the idea of churning the roster to bring in "hungry" players to keep your vets from getting complacent. But who would YOU not brought back this year? Cleary hasn't played poorly this year. Flip has struggled due to a demotion from adding Hossa. Lilja has been good. I do think Stewart has gotten a little cup hangover after his new deal. The players themsleves talked about having a window to do something special, and how they knew they couldn't stay together forever. Maybe Kenny thought they could overcome a hangover? Time will tell, but the Sharks look hungry right now.

Its not a question of "bringing back players." Its a question of an overall unwillingness to trade players value for value. To take a calculated risk to get some balance into a team that desperately needed it.

The only off-season deals I had a problem with were those of Filppula, Downey and McCarty. Stuart, to some extent, but I really don't see him as a problem. Lilja wasn't a big deal either.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

So you know better than Kenny? RIGHT......

The playoffs will answer that question.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I think the Lilja/Stuart contracts really hamstrung us more tbh. Lilja was resigned because it was thought we wouldn't keep Stuart. When we did it left us with a glut of D-men and no wriggle room - because lets be honest if we were $1M under the cap then 1 or 2 of Leino/Helm/Abdelkader/Ericsson would be on the team and providing some much needed energy and enthusiasm.

Rafalski's contract - essentially the NTC part of it - screws us over way more than Lilja or Stuart's contracts do. Stuart is getting bashed more than he should. Hes not an especially smart player, thats the reason hes a #4 Dman. But he brings a great element to our game.

[weGotTheCup89 41]

So you know better than Kenny? RIGHT......

I mean he makes a very valid point; all you have to do is look across town to the Palace to see that the Pistons have been dealing with the same problem since they won the championship in 2004. They've had more than enough talent to win another championship since then, but while in '04 they were a group of hungry players looking to prove themselves, they've been stale and disappointing since. Complacency for the Wings seems imminent, though you hope our mix of veterans can overcome that. I mean, the '99 Wings should have won the Cup too, but it seems a very similar effect may have occurred then too.

[TheOwl 77]

Why would you get rid of Stuart? Did you notice the other D-man that we pay like $5 or $6 Million a year to? Rafalski is playing way worse than Stuart. Lilja is cheap, as are Lebda and Chelios. Nick and Rafalski are the big ticket boys on the D.

Either way, Kenny has a real mess on his hands this Summer.

Look at his stats versus Rafalski's. Or his fellow D-man Kronwall. Rafa and Kronwall at least produce some offense. Would you rather have Franzen or keep Stuart. Because theirs no way they can keep even 2 of Hossa, Z, or Franzen without getting rid of Stuart or Flippula.

Rafa has 23 points, Brad has 2. I'm not saying he's worthless, but he isn't worth 3.5 million.

Edited December 17, 2008 by TheOwl

[TheOwl 77]

Stuart doesn't play on the PP though. But 3.5 million?

(Sorry double post)

Edited December 17, 2008 by TheOwl