Hindsight is 20/20

[Booster313 138]

Ok so given the cap crunch this coming season and the fact that everyone is trying to figure out how to keep some combination of players on the team should we have thought better of signing Flip?

Feel free to debate!

[Yzermania 156]

I put yes, but I don't think signing him in general is a mistake, I just think for that price, because he certainly is not worth it.

[Booster313 138]

I voted yes on this one...but for the record at the time I was pretty high on Flip...I thought 3million was an overpayment but I had high hopes.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Maybe, too early to tell.

I think that people are forgetting he doesn't play much on the power play, even less than last year, where more point opportunities are less. And his production this year, while down from last year, isn't down all that much IMO.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Signing him wasnt a mistake, but giving him a Kronwall type contract was, IMO. With Z and Franzens contracts being up the next year, they needed all the space they could get, and that isnt even taking into account Hossa. But hopefully it does work out.

[egroen 384]

Holland could have signed him to a shorter term contract for a hell of a lot less with a wait and see approach, and arbitration would not have worked out kindly for Filppula, who was holding out. As it is, his contract is a good one... but with the glut of talent on the Wings team, it may serve them better to get a nice return on it from a trade.

[Z and D for the C 712]

He's been signed for a half ******* season, hold your horses before calling it a big mistake.

[ben_usmc 253]

I think it will end up hopefully like a Kronner or a weaker Z then it will be worth it

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

What a stupid poll. Kids, don't try this at home... I didn't pick any of your idiotic choices because my view that it was a decent long term signing of a good player wasn't represented. No, he doesn't suck and he's not the second coming and we didn't sign him for a ridiculous pile of cash. The deal keeps getting better over time, something we need when we keep bringing in guys who could demand top dollar. We need an entire roster and we're not going to keep winning if we turn over our roster every year. Wow, what a radical position.

If you think even if we can keep Z, Hossa AND Franzen without TWENTY more guys to play with, and I don't mean just scrubs who will play for the minimum until someone will sign them for more and win the division much less Stanley Cups, you know less about hockey then I think you do already.

[egroen 384]

If you think even if we can keep Z, Hossa AND Franzen without TWENTY more guys to play with, and I don't mean just scrubs who will play for the minimum until someone will sign them for more and win the division much less Stanley Cups, you know less about hockey then I think you do already.

I would like to keep Zetterberg, Franzen and Hudler -- and I think the only way it can be accomplished (and give any cap flexibility) is by trading Filppula. It has less to do with his ability or future ability than with the current state of the Wings against the cap.

[Yzersyukstromberg 0]

Filps is a talented player, no doubt about it....whether or not he contributes big point totals at this point of his career isn't a guaranteed thing. Kenny Holland played this contract out right...$2 mil this year, $2.5 mil next year, then $3.5 for 3 years after that. He's not necessarily worth the $3 mil average salary this season, but as long as he manages to put up another 40 points this year, you really can't complain. He sees 12-14 minutes a game, and his linemates change almost every other game....it's got to be tough for a young guy like that to get his confidence really rolling when things keep on changing!!

I will say one thing that concerns me...Filps has trouble finishing. He's good a good nose for the net, gets there often, but when he does get there, it's rare that he puts the puck in the net. Over time, that will change though....he's young. Not every player is going to just blossom overnight. I agree with the statement above....we might just have another late bloomer on our hands. If we all panicked when the Mule didn't put up stellar numbers right away, he'd already be long gone, and some other team would be reaping the benefits of his abilities.

I say we ride this kid out...we'll know soon enough whether or not he's going to be what we expected long term, and if it isn't panning out, Kenny Holland will know it long before we do, and he'll make the necessary moves to make sure we get proper compensation if he ever does get dealt.

Just my 2 cents!

Edited December 31, 2008 by Yzersyukstromberg

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Yes, it was a mistake. I said it before he signed Flip, when he signed Flip, and I'm still saying it now. At the time Flip was holding out, Holland had 3 great options which he chose to neglect:

1. He could've left him exposed to a RFA sheet longer than he did. At the time, Vancouver was rumored to be interesting in "stealing" Filppula for 2.5M. On the one hand, if you don't match, you get a pick. On the other, you get Filppula for 500k cheaper and likely shorter term. Its a win-win situation.

2. He could've signed Filppula for something like Steen got. Those two guys are incredibly similar, and Steen got 1.7 for 2 years. That would've been perfect for Flip.

3. If neither of the above options worked, Filppula could've been taken to arbitration. In that case, theres no way he would've gotten 3M, as the RFA contracts being signed last year comparable to Flips were very reasonable, and the Wings could've taken the arbiters decision for a 1 year contract or a 2 year contract.

I'm not bashing Holland here. He's the best GM in the league, but I think he got a little cocky with this move and thought he'd show everyone yet again how good he is at signing players to underpaying contracts a la Kronwall and Zetterberg. It was an ill-advised signing knowing that the global economy was headed for downfall which was likely and still is likely to affect the cap and with the big re-signings of Hank and Franzen upcoming.

And before you compare Flips contract to Kronwalls, there are a few of things to think about. First of all, defenseman take longer to develop than forwards do, and secondly, Kronwall's development was derailed a bit by his injuries. Not to mention there being only 6 Dmen and twice as many forwards makes it that much more crucial that you lock up your top 4 dmen long term.

Finally, like others have said, the signing of Fippula in it of itself was not a bad one. But the terms were. Flip has shown hustle, and hes shown defensive capability, but his offensive flair has been inconsistent and short-lived. Flip was and is good for a great play every once and a while - his set up tonight showed that - but its easy to see, as it has been since day one of his joining the Wings, that his offensive composure and his vision are extremely lacking. Hes a hard worker, hes solid defensively, and a great skater, but more often than not, he makes the wrong decision in the offensive zone. And as many players in this league have shown, theres only so much experience can do to bring that out in a player.

This whole situation brings to mind a time when Pat Quinn called Alexander Steen "our Henrik Zetterberg." Things didn't exactly go as planned there either.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

So what happens if Holland does trade Flip and he turns out to be a force who would be valued over $6m per year? How many will call for Hollands head because he let go a 6 million dollar valued player that was contracted for 3 mil?

Do you trust Holland's scout team for judging player capabilities? I think they're doing a pretty damn good job acquiring amazing players that every other team's scouts overlooked.

I have a gut feeling that Flip will soon find that 'click' like the mule found and be a force. Flip showed good signs tonight with more ice duties.

That depends. You do understand that Filppulas contract is VERY likely to affect the re-signings of Hudler, Franzen, and Hank, right. Think of it this way: Filppula and Hossa combined make about 10M. Do you know what the likely raises for Hank, Hudler, and Franzen are likely to total? About 10M. And this is with a cap that is more likely than not to be lower than this year.

So it becomes a quesiton of not what happens if Filppula turns into a guy worth 6M (VERY unlikely) and we lose him, but which guy that could potentially be worth 6M do we lose? Franzen, Hudler or Filppula. Frankly, I'd go with the two that we already know are worth the money they *might* be paid.

[egroen 384]

I will be able to live if Filppula turns into a first/second line two-way forward putting up 50-60 points a season -- on another team, as long as we get get a good return for him. That is his potential, and Zetterberg & Datsyuk are already better centers (and not that much older); Hudler is outperforming him offensively by a lot, as well as Franzen - and both can play center. Even Cleary is outperforming him and can play center. Filppula is just in the unfortunate situation of being a redundant player on the Red Wings team. We have plenty of players more effective than him defensively, both younger & older and plenty of players more effective than him offensively both younger & older.... plus players in the minors who may have just as much, if not more potential than him.

It is a good signing if he is traded, because I believe Holland could get a great package for him.

Edited December 31, 2008 by egroen

[YoungGuns1340 1]

He sees 12-14 minutes a game, and his linemates change almost every other game....it's got to be tough for a young guy like that to get his confidence really rolling when things keep on changing!!

Filppula sees nearly 16 minutes of ice time a game, and less than 2 of those minutes are on the PK. He sees more even strength time than Cleary, Sammy, Hudler, and Homer, yet his statistics pale in comparison to everyone except Sammy, which isn't saying much.

Statistically, Homer, Hudler, and Cleary average a point every 22-23 minutes at even strength. Filppula, on the other hand, averages a point at even strength every 30 minutes played.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Mmmmm, Pat Quinn > Jim Nill / Kenny Holland?

Now it makes perfect sense! Lets fire Jim Nill for Pat Quinn, get r done Kenny!

The comparison stands. Lets not stand around and pretend that Holland hasn't made any mistakes in adjudging young talent.

[RWK23 0]

I don't think so. He isn't putting up great numbers this season, but he went from playing second line minutes and PP/PK time to playing third line minutes with little to no time on the PP after the signing of Hossa. He's a good two-way center with a lot of talent. It was a risk, but I suspect it will be viewed as a very good deal before too long.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I will be able to live if Filppula turns into a first/second line two-way forward putting up 50-60 points a season -- on another team, as long as we get get a good return for him. That is his potential, and Zetterberg & Datsyuk are already better centers (and not that much older); Hudler is outperforming him offensively by a lot, as well as Franzen - and both can play center. Even Cleary is outperforming him and can play center. Filppula is just in the unfortunate situation of being a redundant player on the Red Wings team. We have plenty of players more effective than him defensively, both younger & older and plenty of players more effective than him offensively both younger & older.... plus players in the minors who may have just as much, if not more potential than him.

It is a good signing if he is traded, because I believe Holland could get a great package for him.

Great post. You hit the nail on the head. Its not that Filppula is a bad player by any means - hes just another Kyle Quincey in a catch 22 of a situation. Sure, hes great at 3M if you bank on his potential, but at the same time his potential is unlikely to be met on the Wings, so the contract morphing from being ho-hum to good is unlikely to occur with this team.

And most importantly, like you said, Filppula offers nothing that this team doesn't already have plenty of.

[RWK23 0]

Great post. You hit the nail on the head. Its not that Filppula is a bad player by any means - hes just another Kyle Quincey in a catch 22 of a situation. Sure, hes great at 3M if you bank on his potential, but at the same time his potential is unlikely to be met on the Wings, so the contract morphing from being ho-hum to good is unlikely to occur with this team.

And most importantly, like you said, Filppula offers nothing that this team doesn't already have plenty of.

I disagree. This team doesn't have a whole lot of 24 year old defensively responsible forwards with lots of offensive skill and potential. We have to consider the future of this team as well and Filppula provides youth on a currently veteran-laden team.

Edited December 31, 2008 by RWK23

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I don't think so. He isn't putting up great numbers this season, but he went from playing second line minutes and PP/PK time to playing third line minutes with little to no time on the PP after the signing of Hossa. He's a good two-way center with a lot of talent. It was a risk, but I suspect it will be viewed as a very good deal before too long.

I agree with this, and what others have said in theory, but what you have to look is the timing. Bottom line is it was not a good time to take a risk on Filppula. His contract is very likely going to end up being overpaying this year alone - which I have no problem with now - but its hampered us from bringing up young kids when this team needs a shot in the arm, and it might also keep us from adding someone at the deadline to give us an edge.

And again, judging from the amount of people who think its plausible to assemble a team next year with both Hossa AND Hank (let alone other key guys), I'm guessing most people either don't know how or just haven't sat down and worked out the potential numbers for next year. But if you have, you'd know that Filppula's deal might have an affect on us re-signing Franzen and Hudler - both of whom are players that are unlikely to be outperformed by Flip now or in the near future.

[RWK23 0]

I agree with this, and what others have said in theory, but what you have to look is the timing. Bottom line is it was not a good time to take a risk on Filppula. His contract is very likely going to end up being overpaying this year alone - which I have no problem with now - but its hampered us from bringing up young kids when this team needs a shot in the arm, and it might also keep us from adding someone at the deadline to give us an edge.

And again, judging from the amount of people who think its plausible to assemble a team next year with both Hossa AND Hank (let alone other key guys), I'm guessing most people either don't know how or just haven't sat down and worked out the potential numbers for next year. But if you have, you'd know that Filppula's deal might have an affect on us re-signing Franzen and Hudler - both of whom are players that are unlikely to be outperformed by Flip now or in the near future.

My memory's failing me, which came first: Filppula's re-signing or Hossa's signing? Either way, I would argue Hossa's contract is hindering our ability to call up players or go out and pick someone up at the trade deadline.

[norrisnick 1]

Actually, we have a couple options.

1). Don't sign Hudler.

2). Holland finds a way to get each of these 3 players to take .50 to .75 less than what all the LetsGoWings GMs want to pay these guys. I'm still arguing the fact that 1). Nobody will get paid more than Lidstrom 2). Dats (our best player) gets paid 6.4. Zetterberg needs to man up, be a team player and not be greedy. That's why Detroit Red Wings have been so successful that past decade, we have team players that are willing to make pay adjustments to keep this franchise competitive. Zetterberg should be no exception. If he chooses to be greedy, perhaps him and Fedorov should go play patty cakes together.

How will Detroit stay competitive if our players no longer care about staying on a competitive team over personal greed. Imagine if that's how this team operated from here on...

"and Steen got 1.7 for 2 years. That would've been perfect for Flip."

Above I pasted that you said prior. *If* Flip was paid $1.7 per year, then we'd be perfect. How hard will it be for 3 multi million dollar guys to combine for a 1.2 million collective paycut? $25,000 from Huds, $25,000 from Franzen, and $75,000 from Zetter = 1.25 million combined. Which makes up for Flips "over payment" that you suggested.

Now lets out this into perspective. Would you give up $25 of your $400 paycheck to stay in a competative and winning field... Plus you don't have to pack up your life, family, (kids - if you have them) to move to another city with higher cost of living?

$25 of $400 bucks sounds like a bargain to stay with Detroit Red Wings....

I really hope you weren't a math major. $25,000 + $25,000 + $75,000 is still $1,075,000 shy of being $1.2M.

[norrisnick 1]

My memory's failing me, which came first: Filppula's re-signing or Hossa's signing? Either way, I would argue Hossa's contract is hindering our ability to call up players or go out and pick someone up at the trade deadline.

Hossa came first. Given how stacked the roster was going to be, Holland should have gone with his other option of a shorter/smaller cap hit contract given that the players ahead of Fil would have blocked him out of production and thus kept his cost down. I highly doubt Fil would have gotten himself beyond $3M/yr level play within 2 years. And a 2 year deal would have been in the Paille, Eriksson, Steen range of solidly below $2M/yr. And every little bit helps. This year and next.

It was high risk, low reward to go long term bigger money with Fil.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Just a quick note- it's been aluded to that the cap will go down this next year (by professional hockey writers no less). That's wrong.

The cap for next year is pretty much set. It's based on the previous year's earnings, which have been fairly constant (although nothing's shot up). The global economic crisis will more than likely drop the 2010/2011 cap, not next year's.

On top of that, the PA's been holding more player money in escrow for just this situation, and has the option of boosting the cap by 5%.

The odds of the cap dropping this season are very, very low. The odds of the cap dropping for the season after next are pretty damn good.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Actually, we have a couple options.

1). Don't sign Hudler.

2). Holland finds a way to get each of these 3 players to take .50 to .75 less than what all the LetsGoWings GMs want to pay these guys. I'm still arguing the fact that 1). Nobody will get paid more than Lidstrom 2). Dats (our best player) gets paid 6.4. Zetterberg needs to man up, be a team player and not be greedy. That's why Detroit Red Wings have been so successful that past decade, we have team players that are willing to make pay adjustments to keep this franchise competitive. Zetterberg should be no exception. If he chooses to be greedy, perhaps him and Fedorov should go play patty cakes together.

How will Detroit stay competitive if our players no longer care about staying on a competitive team over personal greed. Imagine if that's how this team operated from here on...

"and Steen got 1.7 for 2 years. That would've been perfect for Flip."

Above I pasted that you said prior. *If* Flip was paid $1.7 per year, then we'd be perfect. How hard will it be for 3 multi million dollar guys to combine for a 1.2 million collective paycut? $25,000 from Huds, $25,000 from Franzen, and $75,000 from Zetter = 1.25 million combined. Which makes up for Flips "over payment" that you suggested.

Now lets out this into perspective. Would you give up $25 of your $400 paycheck to stay in a competative and winning field... Plus you don't have to pack up your life, family, (kids - if you have them) to move to another city with higher cost of living?

$25 of $400 bucks sounds like a bargain to stay with Detroit Red Wings....

1. Its not about Filppula being paid 3M this year, its about the next 5 years.

2. Don't sign Hudler? Great idea. Lets NOT sign a guy thats on pace for 60 points a year, in favor of a guy that isn't even likely to land 40 points, now or in the future, and has already shown that he doesn't have the offensive wherewithal that Hudler has.

3. Zetterberg has been underpaid for YEARS. Hes made his contribution to the teams competitive fund.

4. If you're going to argue a numbers game, at least know the numbers. Datsyuk makes 6.7M, not 6.4.

*Sigh* now:

Hank (7.4) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25)

Hudler (3) - Flip (3) - Franzen (4)

Cleary (2.85) - Helm (.6) - Leino (.9)

Maltby (.88) - Drapes (1.58) - Kopay (.6)

Downey (.5)

Lidstrom (7.45) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Ericsson (.9)

Meech (.5)

Osgood (1.4)

Howard (.71)

Total: 59.2M

Now, even though the projected cap number for next year is rumored to be 55M, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that despite the global economy being in its worst state in years, it'll only drop a mere 700k over all.

So lets go through your "cost-cutting" suggestsions.

1. Who needs Ericsson? Trade his ass, and keep Lebda. (A gain of 250k)

2. Cut Franzens salary from 4M to 3, despite the fact that he could earn more than Malone did on the open market. ( A gain of 1M)

3. Only offer Hudler 2.2M, despite the fact that he'll likely outproduce Franzen, Cleary, and Filppula who will all make more than him, and he'll probably take us to arbitration anyways, where he'll likely earn more than 2.2, considering arbitration is entirely stats-based. (A gain of 800k)

4. Cut Hanks salary to 7M, even though he and his agent are reportedly asking for 8.5M. (A gain of 400k)

5. Let Leino go, and replace him with some Grand Rapids kid for 500k. (A gain of 400k)

Thats a total in savings of 2.85M, which brings our payroll down to 56.35. So in a last ditch effort, lets ask the reignin Conn Smythe winner to take the same contract as Datsyuk.

Your total remains 56.05. After all your re-signings coming severely discounted and sacrificing the potential future of two young talented players just to fit us under an incredibly optimistic cap number, it still doesn't work out.

Edited December 31, 2008 by YoungGuns1340