Bruins fans are dumb...

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Does anyone know when the last time was that Boston made it out of the 1st round of the playoffs?

It seems like it's been around a decade or so.

Anyway, the fact that sports fans in Boston are idiots (albeit devoted idiots) is not a new revelation.

Good guess: 1998-99, lost in Conference Semi-Final. Since then, they've gone out in the first round 4 times and (gasp) failed to make the Playoffs 4 times. Their best Playoff since 1998-99 was 2004-05.

[VM1138 1,921]

I wonder what stats these fans are looking at to determine that Lidstrom doesn't deserve it this year. I've seen Pittsburgh fans, Chicago fans, Bruin fans, and Leaf fans who all think that Lidstrom is playing terrible this year and doesn't even deserve a mention for the Norris. Are they looking at the fact that he has less points than usual? Is it because his +/- is lower than it typically is halfway through the season? I just don't get it.

The first 30 games certainly weren't typical Lidstrom quality, but I still feel like he was playing better than most. The fact that Lidstrom is usually head-and-shoulders above the rest, but only a head above the rest this year is no reason to say that he doesn't deserve another Norris. Just because he's LESS better doesn't mean he's not better than the rest, if you get what I mean, haha.

I think once the season is over, his stats will be among the top, as always. I bet he nabs another Norris, much to other fans' dismay.

That's what's so funny about this whole thing. Lidstrom had a terrible first half, by Lidstrom's standards. But even during his worst game, he was still probably the best defenseman in the league. All these up and comers, I'm not jealous or anything, because I'm looking forward to finally having a great crop fo defenseman, something the league hasn't had since MacInnis retired, but they're all just regular good players, not best in the world.

[VM1138 1,921]

This. Replacing Lidstrom will be 10 times harder than replacing Yzerman was.

And yeah, Stevie shoulda won the Conn Smythe in 02. Leading your team in scoring on one leg?

I still can't believe that. That's gotta be one of the great sports stories, that whole playoff run was magic.

What's funny, is that when Yzerman retired, I felt that no one could replace him and that Lidstrom was just a great player. I had doubts about him being Captain, but damn, has he ever proved his leadership quality and brought his play to another level.

#5 has to be retired upon retirement as well, Lidstrom has devoted his entire career to the Wings and being the best defenseman in the world....man. I can't see another player with #19 or #5 without thinking of Y zerman or Lidstrom.

[eva unit zero 271]

Lol, eva just said Hudler could become the best forward in the league. So yeah, agreed.

It was based on Hudler improving his physical strength as much as he has improved his skating as well as continuing the trend of outperforming Datsyuk and Zetterberg at the same age...as Zetterberg was rated the top player in the league by several publications going into the season, it's not completely ridiculous. I didn't say I expected it to happen; just that if Hudler fulfilled those conditions, it was possible. Reading comprehension is a wonderful skill to have.

[thedisappearer 291]

It was based on Hudler improving his physical strength as much as he has improved his skating as well as continuing the trend of outperforming Datsyuk and Zetterberg at the same age...as Zetterberg was rated the top player in the league by several publications going into the season, it's not completely ridiculous. I didn't say I expected it to happen; just that if Hudler fulfilled those conditions, it was possible. Reading comprehension is a wonderful skill to have.

While I agree that you never said he WOULD, just COULD, the fact you even think he COULD is pretty outrageous. I know you did your little thing with loads of stats and no objectivity towards the reality of situation (and I always enjoy your stats, BTW), putting Hudler in the same category as a few of our forwards, as well as Crosby (mentioned first to piss everyone off), Malkin, and AO is just insane. They are younger NOW. They are better NOW. Explain how Hudler surpasses them, even if he bulks up and learns to skate better.

[esteef 2,679]

Lidstrom's just lucky he plays with good linemates!

Lilly for Norris!

esteef

[Doggy 130]

It was based on Hudler improving his physical strength as much as he has improved his skating as well as continuing the trend of outperforming Datsyuk and Zetterberg at the same age...as Zetterberg was rated the top player in the league by several publications going into the season, it's not completely ridiculous. I didn't say I expected it to happen; just that if Hudler fulfilled those conditions, it was possible. Reading comprehension is a wonderful skill to have.

Okay, sao what you were saying was, with those conditions met, HUDLER COULD BECOME THE BEST FORWARD IN THE LEAGUE!!!!!! Were you meant to contradict me with this post or something, eva? There was nothing wrong with my post.

Lol, eva just said Hudler could become the best forward in the league. So yeah, agreed.

I will admit that generally speaking, your seemingly interminable posts about what turns out to be very little can be unintelligible at best, but I fail to see my flaw with comprehension in this case. A little help?

I guess my point is, that using your logic of "if this happened, this might happen", anyone could suggest anything. Ozzie, could get 82 straight shutouts if he put on enough weight to be 4ft tall lying down.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Doggy

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

While I agree that you never said he WOULD, just COULD, the fact you even think he COULD is pretty outrageous. I know you did your little thing with loads of stats and no objectivity towards the reality of situation (and I always enjoy your stats, BTW), putting Hudler in the same category as a few of our forwards, as well as Crosby (mentioned first to piss everyone off), Malkin, and AO is just insane. They are younger NOW. They are better NOW. Explain how Hudler surpasses them, even if he bulks up and learns to skate better.

That's the thing with Eva, he's a spot picker but instead of a visor he hides behind stats. Stats, that at any given moment could favor his argument.

Is it against the law to think Hudler might become the best player in the league? Of course not. Does it sound like one of the stupidest damned things anybody has ever said? Absolutely.

All he's doing is taking a snapshot of statistical data based on 1 season across a couple of players at the same age of their careers. It's raw number data. It leaves out many important components like the fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk, despite not having better numbers than Hudler at age 25, were better players, had better potential, better overall skill sets, were better skaters, were bigger and stronger, etc., etc....

Hudler get stronger? What's he going to beef up to look like? Fecking Tony Twist? He's got a small frame. He's a small guy. He's not going to get any taller and he's likely not going to be able to add more than 5-10 pounds of muscle during his career. First off its not his game. Secondly, his frame would likely not support it and 3rd, carrying more weight for an already below average skater isn't likely to jive.

All you have to do is research Eva's arguments about Zetterberg being better than Dats and using pro rated stats to show it. And what happens, without a single exception, Datsyuk rises above Zetterberg in points every single year. I remember one time Z was "on pace" for 100 points and Eva let us all know it. Fat chance I say b/c of Z's penchant for injury and missing games (you know, reality based variables added to stats) and of course I was right.

Looking purely at stats and turning a blind eye to the reality of what Hudler is and what his potential appears to be is bad science.

Edited January 12, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[VM1138 1,921]

You all seem way too upset over one person's opinion.

[egroen 384]

I do think Hudler has the potential to be a point per game player -- hell, only Malkin is scoring more per minute than him, in the entire league.

[eva unit zero 271]

That's the thing with Eva, he's a spot picker but instead of a visor he hides behind stats. Stats, that at any given moment could favor his argument.

Is it against the law to think Hudler might become the best player in the league? Of course not. Does it sound like one of the stupidest damned things anybody has ever said? Absolutely.

All he's doing is taking a snapshot of statistical data based on 1 season across a couple of players at the same age of their careers. It's raw number data. It leaves out many important components like the fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk, despite not having better numbers than Hudler at age 25, were better players, had better potential, better overall skill sets, were better skaters, were bigger and stronger, etc., etc....

Hudler was a better player than Datsyuk was at Hudler's age. Hudler is better defensively than Dats was at 25, and Hudler has been hovering close to a point per game on the third line all season. Dats was posting comparable offensive numbers with Hull and Zetterberg as his wingers on the first line. If Hudler had linemates of comparable skill and comparable ice time, he might be leading the team in scoring right now. He's been a capable defensive player and a decent skater since Babcock made him work on those areas. He doesn't kill penalties, you say? Yeah...and Filppula doesn't play the PP. He's not one of the four or five best defensive forwards on the team. He still knows how to play defense; watch a game.

Oh, and when Hudler was drafted, he was considered by many scouts to be the most talented center in the draft; the only reason he dropped to where he did was size. If he can overcome the size issue, what says he can't potentially be the best forward in the league? Hype? He's better defensively than Crosby, and scoring more per minute than Crosby. He's improved his skating to the point where recent game recaps have referred to him as "speedy forward Jiri Hudler" and his puck skills are SICK. Does he need a Canadian birth certificate?

[Datsyerberger 279]

Lidstrom looks good because he's part of an excellent system, in which Zetterberg looks amazing because of Datsyuk, who only looks good because he plays in front of an excellent blueline, which reminds me of Rafalski, who looks excellent because he plays on the PP with the likes of hot offensive players like Hudler, whose defensive weaknesses are covered by Filppula, who only appears great defensively because he plays with veteran grinders like Maltby (who is old and washed up, by the way) on the PK, or with players like Samuelsson and Cleary, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their shots, but still put up great numbers, because they're part of a great system, in which a roster barely better than that of Atlanta minus Kovalchuk can win multiple President's Trophies and Stanley Cups.

Right? RIGHT?

Edited January 12, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[blikst 1]

Lidstrom looks good because he's part of an excellent system, in which Zetterberg looks amazing because of Datsyuk, who only looks good because he plays in front of an excellent blueline, which reminds me of Rafalski, who looks excellent because he plays on the PP with the likes of hot offensive players like Hudler, whose defensive weaknesses are covered by Filppula, who only appears great defensively because he plays with veteran grinders like Maltby (who is old and washed up, by the way) on the PK, or with players like Samuelsson and Cleary, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their shots, but still put up great numbers, because they're part of a great system, in which a roster barely better than that of Atlanta minus Kovalchuk can win multiple President's Trophies and Stanley Cups.

Right? RIGHT?

Yes.

In the dreams of all other teams fans.

Edited January 12, 2009 by blikst

[The Secret 304]

Eh, you're right, but it doesn't really take cherry-picking to make Boston fans look obnoxious.

This is true. It was a Bruins fan that was ejected from a game for pissing on a Canadiens fan during the playoffs last year in Boston. I hate the Canadiens as much as the next guy but that is way over the line!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hudler was a better player than Datsyuk was at Hudler's age. Hudler is better defensively than Dats was at 25, and Hudler has been hovering close to a point per game on the third line all season. Dats was posting comparable offensive numbers with Hull and Zetterberg as his wingers on the first line. If Hudler had linemates of comparable skill and comparable ice time, he might be leading the team in scoring right now. He's been a capable defensive player and a decent skater since Babcock made him work on those areas. He doesn't kill penalties, you say? Yeah...and Filppula doesn't play the PP. He's not one of the four or five best defensive forwards on the team. He still knows how to play defense; watch a game.

Oh, and when Hudler was drafted, he was considered by many scouts to be the most talented center in the draft; the only reason he dropped to where he did was size. If he can overcome the size issue, what says he can't potentially be the best forward in the league? Hype? He's better defensively than Crosby, and scoring more per minute than Crosby. He's improved his skating to the point where recent game recaps have referred to him as "speedy forward Jiri Hudler" and his puck skills are SICK. Does he need a Canadian birth certificate?

Not sure why you throw in the last comment. I could care less about where he is from. Pssst...i'm an American by the way so being from Canada might hold water for Don Cherry but it don't mean dick all to me.

It's my opinion that Z and Dats were both better players than Hudler at their age. Your opinion is he's a better player than they were. Not sure how we prove beyond a doubt either of us is correct so let's agree to disagree.

As for the rest of the Hudler hypotheticals, which are essentially the foundation of most of your arguments............woulda, coulda, shoulda eva.

Hudler could very well turn into a point per game player. Maybe if he played in Tampa or was a starting line center somewhere. He won't be a point per game player in Detroit. There are too many bigger, better fish than him in Detroit.

The bottom line for me in not caring if we keep Hudler is that much like our old Fedorov arguments, Hudler brings nothing to the table the Wings don't already have in spades.

Last time I checked the Wings didn't need help scoring goals or winning faceoffs. Last I checked we were pretty good at the offensive center position.

Within the Wings organization, our system, the way we play hockey, Hudler is replaceable. One could argue Flip is just as replaceable. But given the two, i'll take the bigger, stronger, faster guy who has shown he can chip in offensively along with win faceoffs and kill penalties over a small guy with great skill but that is relatively small, weak and an average skater at best on a team chock full of offensive talent.

[Datsyerberger 279]

With a team with 2 multiple Norris winners, 2 selke winners, another finalist, and loaded with defensively responsible players in general, and with the league once again shifting towards more goals, I'll take the more offensively talented, scrappy guy who, despite his size, frequently goes to the net, over a fast PKing center any day (it's not like we don't have players like Darren Helm waiting for a chance).

As eva pointed out, I think a lot of you are underestimating Hudler's current skating ability. He also protects the puck surprisingly well using his low center of gravity.. I think I see Flip giving it up entering the zone more than Hudler.

I think his ice time is mostly a developmental issue. We know Holland and Co. doesn't like bringing up the youngins early, yet they did with Hudler.. and I think the current amount of ice time he gets is enough to let his abilities shine and develop without dumping too much responsibility on him.

I dunno about best forward in a few years, but I can certainly see him becoming a first liner if his strength and skating continues to develop. Has it not yet been mentioned that he's also a top 3/4 shootout choice among the likes of 3 of the NHL's top 20 forwards?

I think a lot of you overestimate size as well.. much more important is your strength relative to your mass and how well you use your center of gravity. Or perhaps some of you have missed 5'11" 195 lb. Datsyuk absolutely splattering 6'9 270 lb Chara with a hit. Actual mass is mostly important when you're Chris Pronger and you see (insert star player)'s numbers, and have 5+ steps to drill his face into the boards.

[C-Dub 0]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=593815

Btw these guys believe that Chara deserves the Hart.

You know, you gotta be damn good...I mean, DAMNNNNN good, to have message boards from other teams try so hard to find reasons for why you should not be named the best defenseman in the league...again. It should really be looked at as a compliment.

[egroen 384]

The bottom line for me in not caring if we keep Hudler is that much like our old Fedorov arguments, Hudler brings nothing to the table the Wings don't already have in spades.

I just disagree with this part -- Robert Lang was brought in because of the absense of Fedorov, and it was frankly a poor substitution.

In terms of an overall offensive package, only Datsyuk and Zetterberg are better than Hudler. Hossa will be gone next year.

Hudler brings almost as much offense as Z and D at a fraction of the price. In my opinion, it is defensive forwards that are abundant on the Wings at this moment, not offensive forwards.

Edit: for poor word choice!

Edited January 12, 2009 by egroen

[Doggy 130]

I just disagree with this part -- Robert Lang was brought in because of the absense of Fedorov, and it was frankly a poor substitution.

In terms of an overall offensive package, only Datsyuk and Zetterberg are better than Hudler. Hossa will be gone next year.

Hudler brings almost as much offense as Z and D at a fraction of the price. In my opinion, it is defensive forwards that are superfluous on the Wings at this moment, not offensive forwards.

I agree except for the superfluous part. That's probably the last word I'd use to describe our defensive forwards. Abundant would be more accurate.