Trade Val if necessary.

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

No team is going to trade for a 3 million dollar, under-performing player and not send salary the other way. I'd rather just keep Val in hopes he turns it around.

If Todd Marchant - Matt Cullen - Fernando Pisani - Kyle Calder - Steve Sullivan are border line 3m players.. Then Val is for sure a 3m player.

I personally think Val has Kyle Quincey syndrome, where he just needs a change of senery to flourish.

[FinRedWing 172]

I hardly ever shoot praise for Samelsson but his goals and points double up Filppula's

It's because of the PP time.

On even strength Sammy has 15 points compared to Val's 21.

[Guest mindfly]

It's because of the PP time.

On even strength Sammy has 15 points compared to Val's 21.

And the finn's defend the finn's

[betterREDthandead 58]

I hardly ever shoot praise for Samelsson but his goals and points double up Filppula's

Yeah, exactly (although 32 is not twice 21), and the point is that it's silly to measure someone by those two numbers alone.

[thedisappearer 291]

is the only finnish player

What does this have to do with anything?

[DMAC 25 18]

Hossa HAS to be kept. He's the best all around player of the available free agents we will have. We need to trade Filppula because he is not worth the money he's getting. He's holding Franzen's contract. I think we can get Hudler for $2.5 million.

we dont HAVE to keep hossa, it would be nice because he does help out a lot but we didnt need him last year what makes you think that we wouldnt be able to do it without him?

[dallas27 7]

we dont HAVE to keep hossa, it would be nice because he does help out a lot but we didnt need him last year what makes you think that we wouldnt be able to do it without him?

I'm really getting sick of this argument, because it isn't one. So let me ask you, and everyone, a question. Do you think every other team out there isn't getting better? Are they just going to turn over because they sympathize with the situation the Red Wings are in and stop improving?

Fact of the matter is, they HAVE to keep either Hossa or Franzen and Hudler if it means something as simple as trading Flip. Not trading Flip is going to make the team worse than if they do. I have no idea where these 60-70 point expectations people have been throwing out have come from. He does everything well, but nothing exceptional.

[ben_usmc 253]

I think it's to early to really rag on Flip yet, I'm not a huge fan. But remember these same people bitched about Datsyuk contract. I guess he reminds me in the sense that Dats couldn't finish early in his carrier either.

Edited January 31, 2009 by ben_usmc

[lets go pavel 2]

Last year Flip scored 36 points playing largely on the second line and second PP unit. This year he's on pace to score 36 points playing mostly on the third line with no PP time. He's making the same contributions point-wise as last year despite being in a less offense-oreinted role. I have no problem trading him if it means keeping Franzen or Hossa, but his statistics aren't the reason.

[gcom007 1,465]

I think it's to early to really rage on Flip yet, I'm not a huge fan. But remember these same people bitched about Datsyuk contract. I guess he reminds me in the sense that Dats couldn't finish early in his carrier either.

I didn't ***** about Datsyuks contract and the fact of the matter is that he proved himself to be a superstar when he got the deal and it was known within the organization that he had nagging injuries in the playoffs that explained his lack of offense. Plus, Datsyuks shown superstar potential since day 1. I had no problem and have no problem with the Datsyuk deal. The only time Datsyuk's name should come up in a matter like this is to compare how much better Datsyuk has always been than Flip at his best.

Flip is making half the money, but I don't feel like he's shown the potential to live up to it on the Red Wings. On a team where guys like Holmstrom don't even make $3 million and you've got undisputed superstars with cap hits at $6 and $6.7 million, someone as profoundly average (at best...) as Flip should absolutely not be making $3 million on this team. Maybe on another team with a different philosophy where he would carry more of the load. Not on the Detroit Red Wings. He's a $1-1.5 million guy on the Wings; all the more so this year.

I hope he can prove me wrong on this team or any other. He seems like a decent guy and a fairly hard worker. He's a solid NHLer for sure. But as of now, I think he's overpaid, and I call it wishful thinking to suggest that he'll get that much better. His cap hit would be better used on Franzen and/or Hossa in the cap era.

And I have no doubt that management knows that and if there's a way to lock Hossa and Franzen up if it means dumping Flip, he's gone. They may like him and it might be hard to reconcile in some ways, but they're not stupid.

[gcom007 1,465]

Last year Flip scored 36 points playing largely on the second line and second PP unit. This year he's on pace to score 36 points playing mostly on the third line with no PP time. He's making the same contributions point-wise as last year despite being in a less offense-oreinted role. I have no problem trading him if it means keeping Franzen or Hossa, but his statistics aren't the reason.

I agree, points and stats aren't everything and it's hardly the basis of my opinion on the matter. But all the more so, unless you're on the 4th line or a singular-superstar, you're going to put up better numbers on a team like Detroit than on most other teams in the league.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I think it's to early to really rage on Flip yet, I'm not a huge fan. But remember these same people bitched about Datsyuk contract. I guess he reminds me in the sense that Dats couldn't finish early in his carrier either.

Huh? How is Datsyuk in any way comparable to Filppula? During the days when Datsyuk "couldn't finish," it had everything to do with him being an elite passer, and playing on a line with Brett Hull and Brendan Shanahan. Of course you're going to be prone to passing when you're playing with two of the greatest goal scorers of their era - one of all time. At Filppula's age, Datsyuk put up 51 points - in the OLD NHL, mind you. And in Datsyuk's third year in the league, he came up with 30 goals and 68 points - still in the Old NHL.

The one thing that Filppula has ever had over Datsyuk has been his defense. Datsyuk was ragged for being defensively irresponsible, whereas Filppula has always been great defensively.

If you ask me, there isn't a comparable guy to Filppula on the Wings roster right now. Zetterberg at Flip's age now - again in the old NHL - was on pace for 20 goals, 58 points, and he had already shown that he was a great passer and a great goal scorer at that age. Same thing with Datsyuk, at Filppula's age, you could see his potential based off of what you saw every game - great passing, great puck movement, incredible stickhandling.

Even Hudler - at Filppula's age, he put up 42 playings playing 12 minutes a night in a third line role. Even last season, you could see that Hudler had great offensive instincts and a great wrister. The fact that hes only built on that speaks to experience and further development on that raw talent. Which, in my mind, is the difference between Filppula and the other three. With Hudler, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg, you could see/can see the raw offensive talent that would come through as they developed and got used to the NHL game. Filppula has NEVER had that raw talent shining through. Filppula has never been a guy that game in and game out made it known that he had a wicked wrister, great stick-handling skills, or a penchant for finding the open man. Those are the type of tip-offs that come through in a players game no matter who they're playing with or on what line.

What Filppula has, and what his development and performance have indicated over the past three years, is that he's a great skater. Hes great positionally, and hes know where to be on the man to man coverage. He also knows when to step up and when to use his speed. Hes shown that hes not afraid to go the net, and that his passing and shooting skills are good. But not great. And most importantly, hes offensive sense has never been there.

In short, offense is never going to come easy to Filppula.

As of now, I think a great comparison for the type of player Filppula is going to pan out to be is Michal Handzus. (Ironic, because as I say this, Handzus has 7G and 13A for 20 points in 47 games - eerily similar to Filppula). Handzus has always been a reliable guy. Hes always been a great PKer and a great defensive presence, and his offense has been decent, but its never been something he was known for. He could pull of a fancy move here and there, but his offensive production - from what I've seen of him over the years - has always come from the basic tap-ins, give and gos, and the occasional well-placed shot. Incredibly, Handzus' seasonal average point production in his full seasons has been an even 50 points, averaging about 21 goals. That seems about exactly on par with what Filppula will be giving you over his career, maybe a little more.

Edited January 31, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[thedisappearer 291]

As of now, I think a great comparison for the type of player Filppula is going to pan out to be is Michal Handzus. (Ironic, because as I say this, Handzus has 7G and 13A for 20 points in 47 games - eerily similar to Filppula). Handzus has always been a reliable guy. Hes always been a great PKer and a great defensive presence, and his offense has been decent, but its never been something he was known for. He could pull of a fancy move here and there, but his offensive production - from what I've seen of him over the years - has always come from the basic tap-ins, give and gos, and the occasional well-placed shot. Incredibly, Handzus' seasonal average point production in his full seasons has been an even 50 points, averaging about 21 goals. That seems about exactly on par with what Filppula will be giving you over his career, maybe a little more.

Michal Handzus is making $4m per, right? So Flip is a bargain, and younger.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Last year Flip scored 36 points playing largely on the second line and second PP unit. This year he's on pace to score 36 points playing mostly on the third line with no PP time. He's making the same contributions point-wise as last year despite being in a less offense-oreinted role. I have no problem trading him if it means keeping Franzen or Hossa, but his statistics aren't the reason.

Even if Flip only had 10 points on the season, I would say the same thing. In my eyes, it has nothing to do with the statistics as much as it does with his offensive performance and presence. When was the last time you saw Filppula in the offensive zone and thought to yourself "he makes it look so easy!" Filppula doesn't do that. I admire him, because he gets a lot of his points from hard work. And while thats nice, its still not something you can reward with 3M on a very deep offensive team.

Honestly, as much as I love Holland and think he is the best GM in the game, I think he and the rest of the brass got cocky with this contract. They thought they'd set themselves up for another pat on the back in 3 years when Filppula might've potentially had a great contract. But its backfiring on them. Franzen and Hudler have made themselves more valuable than Flip, and Helm has climbed out of the woodwork to prove hes a solid NHLer. Now they have tough decisions to make.

Its actually kind of sad when you think about it. Had Holland pulled off an Alex Steen type of contract - basically, a 2 year contract at about 1.7-1.8M a year - we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not only would Filppula be more or less earning that contract, but he wouldn't be eating up as much cap space, and he'd still have the chance to cash in and prove himself to be more than just a solid two-way center, but a strong offensive contributer as well. I doubt he was asking for 3M per season either, but we'll never know. If he does get traded however, it will have everything to do with finances, and less to do with his play, which is ultimately the fault of Holland, not Filppula.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Michal Handzus is making $4m per, right? So Flip is a bargain, and younger.

Yes. And Henrik Zetterberg is making 2.65M. Holy Smokes is Filppula overpaid!

See? I can do that too!

Edit: But just so we're clear, Handzus at age 25 was making 1.43M a year. And at 29 (New NHL) he was making 2.1.

Edited January 31, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[VM1138 1,921]

I always hoped we could find a way to keep Val, but it is clear to me that if it's between Hossa, Hudler, Franzen and Flip, Flip is let go, no regrets. In fact, he's about all we can bargain with to get something of value in return.

[Red Crazy 201]

As much as I like him as a player I think that the team could benefit by moving him. I think that there would be alot of teams interested in him regaurdless of his performance this season, he is a top six forward on most teams and at 3m thats not a bad hit.( for a top 6) After todays game I think he could be replaced by Abby or Leino at any time.

I would also move Kronner as much as I like him, he has been not playing very well this year and I think that for 3m he should be much better. He started out slow and he just might be getting worse. Meech is smaller but moves the puck much better and if paired with Stuart I think he has a chance of being another Rafalski in the years to come.

It is not that I am saying that these guys are not both great players it maybe better in the long run to move them and use the 6m to A- sign Hossa and bring up a couple of Griffs. or B- to go after a rental Dman at the deadline and then sign Hossa. Just my 2 cents!

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

Regardless of what happens with Hossa/Franzen/Hudler/any other UFA/RFA/; Fil needs to be gone. May it be at the deadline or in the off season. He is young and his stock is still high. Many teams have a need for a center with his skills. He just doesn't fit on this team.

[thedisappearer 291]

Yes. And Henrik Zetterberg is making 2.65M. Holy Smokes is Filppula overpaid!

See? I can do that too!

Edit: But just so we're clear, Handzus at age 25 was making 1.43M a year. And at 29 (New NHL) he was making 2.1.

I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was pointing out that Flip value, as relative to the player you compared him to, is pretty high.

But... what's Zetterberg making next year? ZOMG, Flip is paid a lil above what he deserves, based upon this year's performance. But, after we lose a forward this year, he'll be underpaid.

[stormboy 47]

almost everyone's talking as if holland can just flip a switch and trade filppula for some draft picks or something.

i don't think it's out of the question that some other team would want val in a first or second line situation. if they're really weak down the middle, they might think that filppula will be worth 3 million a year playing alongside two good wingers.

you could argue that he's not worth 3 million on the wings because of his role, and that he might be worth three million in a different role on another team.

but i just have a hard time seeing another GM being willing to take the risk, especially since val's not going to be a UFA at the end of this season.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

you could argue that he's not worth 3 million on the wings because of his role, and that he might be worth three million in a different role on another team.

but i just have a hard time seeing another GM being willing to take the risk, especially since val's not going to be a UFA at the end of this season.

These two statements really don't go together. A GM isn't really taking a risk on a guy that is getting paid 3M longterm to be, like you suggest, a 2nd line center. In 20 minutes a game, Flip is likely a safe bet to net 20 goals, 50 points. He just has to be on a team that is going to give him 20 minutes a game. On a team where our #1 center doesn't even get that, it wont happen here.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was pointing out that Flip value, as relative to the player you compared him to, is pretty high.

But... what's Zetterberg making next year? ZOMG, Flip is paid a lil above what he deserves, based upon this year's performance. But, after we lose a forward this year, he'll be underpaid.

The player I was comparing Filppula too was making 2.1M a year just 3 seasons ago after proving to be a perennial 45-55 point guy. Most guys around Flips age and production aren't getting paid 3M a year, and thats excluding guys on entry level contracts.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

If Todd Marchant - Matt Cullen - Fernando Pisani - Kyle Calder - Steve Sullivan are border line 3m players.. Then Val is for sure a 3m player.

I personally think Val has Kyle Quincey syndrome, where he just needs a change of senery to flourish.

Just because another team overpaid some guys doesn't mean Val is worth 3M.

And for the record:

Marchant - signed that contract after a 60 point season

Calder - The year before he signed that contract, he put up 59 points

Pisani - signed that contract right after he was the playoff MVP to the Western Conference Champs

Cullen - signed that contract after a 25G, 49P season

Sullivan - Don't know why you included him unless you don't know who he is, because hes a bargain at 3M per. He signed his contract as a perennial 60+ point producer.

Regardless, I'll play along, the only difference being I'm going to use comparable guys in age and production when they signed their contracts. Oh, and all these guys currently have more points than Flip:

Brooks Laich(2) - Ryan Kesler(1.75) - Lee Stempniak (1.8) - Curtis Glencross (1.2) - Andrew Ladd (1.5) - Rene Bourque (1.3)

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Last year Flip scored 36 points playing largely on the second line and second PP unit. This year he's on pace to score 36 points playing mostly on the third line with no PP time. He's making the same contributions point-wise as last year despite being in a less offense-oreinted role. I have no problem trading him if it means keeping Franzen or Hossa, but his statistics aren't the reason.

Flip gets 2nd line ice time. He ranks 6th among forwards in even strength ice time, only 20 seconds behind Marian Hossa at even strength. He gets more even strength ice time than Homer, Cleary, Hudler, and Sammy.

[brett 1,029]

i wouldnt mind seeing flip or sams being traded..