Bettman Tried Three Times to Sell Coyotes

[vangvace 12]

That's an unfair statement.

I suggested those two areas because of how huge the College Hockey followings are.

It's a much better theory than just slapping a team in an area based on population.

I know that the North Dakota area is smaller in population but doesn't Green Bay only have 90,000 residence.

If the fan base is rabid it will work.

Houston is a very interesting thought. I think that would work.

And I think a Vegas team could do wonders to getting the NHL on the map as far as bringing in new fans.

College Hockey follows won't necessarily equate to fans putting down NHL type dollars.

Though, the time and moderate success it would take to uild up a franchises following to Green Bay's level would require teams remain where they are for another deccade at least imo.

[miller76 463]

Vegas has the luxury of comping free games in turn for casino play, they'll have a full stadium every night.

This would be good if it was accurate!

Vegas still falls into this non traditional market as Phx, Nashville, Atl, and Fla. So it is already a stretch at trying to sell the game and use the TV money from this market as a crutch like these other franchises do. A lot of Vegas is service industry, blue colar type people. And affording to go to a hockey game, especially with this economy would be a stretch.

The casinos would have to buy up groups of season tickets to have the ability to comp them. Cause you can't comp something that's not rightfully yours. Plus casinos just dont comp things without something in return. The only people getting comped rooms and shows and stuff like that are people who are dropping a lot of coin at their tables or in their high roller rooms. Joe-schmoe doesn't have s*** coming playing quarter slots.

And just an observation myself, I was there a couple weeks ago. The town was dead. I-15 there and back from southern Cal was empty. And for those who have travelled Friday nights and Sunday days it's usually a 7 hour ride, instead of a 3 1/2 hour ride. Vegas is struggling and feeling the impact of the economy as well. People do not have much of a disposable income as they did in recent years.

But even in a decent economy, Vegas is still a vagrant city. A city that doesn't even realize that they have an echl team. And in a city that does all their business on Friday nights through Sunday morning, is a casino really going to comp someone that is gambling in their casino a three hour event that removes them from the casino? And people to fill the seats during the week would be an absolute joke.

[BlakChamber 8]

That's an unfair statement.

I suggested those two areas because of how huge the College Hockey followings are.

It's a much better theory than just slapping a team in an area based on population.

I know that the North Dakota area is smaller in population but doesn't Green Bay only have 90,000 residence.

If the fan base is rabid it will work.

Comparing college hockey and professionall hockey is comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they're both hockey programs, but that's about where it ends.

The NHL is ultimately a business. The first goal of every NHL owner is to have their team end the season in the black. Winning the Cup or a nice playoff run certainly helps a team accomplish this goal, but the bottom line is, the bottom line. That is why season tickets, luxury boxes, and corporate support are so important. It's money up front and money from a consistent source.

As far as college sports, they generally don't operate under the same constraints as the NHL does. In the NCAA, many (probably a majority) of athletic departments do not turn a profit. Turning a profit in a sport that isn't football or basketball is even tougher. They can operate at a loss because they don't have to play by the same rules a business does. After a quick search, I couldn't find the prices for Maine tickets. However, it looks like the most expensive ticket for a North Dakota/Colorado College game is $22.50. Obviously, a NHL team can't get away with charging $22.50 for the most expensive tickets.

Population isn't the only factor in where to put a team, and I never claimed it should be. It would be short sighted. Just like thinking that just because a team is located in a cold weather city, they'd automatically be a good place for a team. Hockey culture is a factor, as is population, and as is corporate support.

Green Bay is an exception to the rule. You can't plop another team down in a place the size of Green Bay and expect another following like the Packers.

[w1ng3dLV 3]

This would be good if it was accurate!

Vegas still falls into this non traditional market as Phx, Nashville, Atl, and Fla. So it is already a stretch at trying to sell the game and use the TV money from this market as a crutch like these other franchises do. A lot of Vegas is service industry, blue colar type people. And affording to go to a hockey game, especially with this economy would be a stretch.

The casinos would have to buy up groups of season tickets to have the ability to comp them. Cause you can't comp something that's not rightfully yours. Plus casinos just dont comp things without something in return. The only people getting comped rooms and shows and stuff like that are people who are dropping a lot of coin at their tables or in their high roller rooms. Joe-schmoe doesn't have s*** coming playing quarter slots.

And just an observation myself, I was there a couple weeks ago. The town was dead. I-15 there and back from southern Cal was empty. And for those who have travelled Friday nights and Sunday days it's usually a 7 hour ride, instead of a 3 1/2 hour ride. Vegas is struggling and feeling the impact of the economy as well. People do not have much of a disposable income as they did in recent years.

But even in a decent economy, Vegas is still a vagrant city. A city that doesn't even realize that they have an echl team. And in a city that does all their business on Friday nights through Sunday morning, is a casino really going to comp someone that is gambling in their casino a three hour event that removes them from the casino? And people to fill the seats during the week would be an absolute joke.

You do have some valid points with Vegas...and then again...you're off the mark.

David Bonderman, Harry Sloan, and Jerry Bruckheimer (amongst other companies) have approached the NHL about purchasing a team in Las Vegas. Bonderman's company TPG is an owner of the MGM Studios, which TPG and Apollo management acquired the Harrah's Corporation for $17B(which owns Harrah's, Caesar's, Horseshoe, Bally's, Flamingo's, Imperial Palace, Paris, The Rio, and numerous others) and they would all be equal partners in an NHL team. I'm sure...with all of these properties, it would be in their best interests to promote their NHL product the best way that they know how. Now...with that being said, this is just accompanying the tourist industry.

As far as the locals and the transients that have relocated to Vegas, it provides an opportunity for those NHL fans who had to move from their struggling economy (Michigan included) to watch their favorite teams as well.

Granted, the entire country's economy is at a hit...but Las Vegas still has more jobs available than people, and we're still growing. So your 3 1/2 hour ride to Vegas on a Friday night may be a possibility. But are you just counting the drive from California? We still receive tourism from all over the world. Next time you come to Vegas, I'd be happy to show you how much support Vegas has.

Seriously, all its going to take is to have one professional team to bite, and you'll soon see other sports following suit. So in response to your comment about Vegas being similar to PHX, ATL, NSH, and FLA...true...not a traditional market. However, IMO Vegas was never given the chance to thrive with a Professional team like the others. Unless you count the XFL, which the Outlaws had the biggest support out of all the teams.

[w1ng3dLV 3]

Something is in the midst for Vegas in 2010.

LAS VEGAS -- AEG, the company that brought David Beckham to the Los Angeles Galaxy, to build a 20,000-seat arena in Las Vegas capable of housing an NBA or NHL team.

The $500 million arena, behind the Bally's and Paris hotel-casinos on the Las Vegas Strip, is projected to open in 2010. It's a step toward attracting a pro sports franchise to a city that has tried to persuade reluctant league officials to look past its legalized sports betting.

It said it was in talks with professional leagues and potential team owners about bringing hockey or basketball to Las Vegas.

"It just so happens 2010 is an opportune time for an expansion team in Vegas for either or both [leagues]," said Timothy Leiweke, president and chief executive of AEG.

An annual preseason game between the Los Angeles Kings and the Colorado Avalanche in Las Vegas usually sells out, and there was good support for the Las Vegas Wranglers minor league hockey team, he said.

Jon Weaver, the president of REI, criticized the Harrah's-AEG plan because it would rely on Strip tourists for its fan base. He said the downtown site was geared more to residents.

"I think it would be very discouraging have an arena to be filled by folks from out of town wanting to see their home team play in Las Vegas," he said. "I don't think that would be a very successful model."

I wanted to address Jon Weaver's perspective of his criticism of having an arena on the strip, because he plans on building an arena downtown as well. So this statement is not that it's a bad idea to have an arena, it's about where they should have it. The Mayor feels...no matter, it's a win/win situation.

- Edit I just read that Harrah's is bowing out of the projected project because other property owners wouldn't support it. None the less, they will continue with the production on it, which I understand is tight lipped.

Edited February 10, 2009 by w1ng3dLV

[miller76 463]

You do have some valid points with Vegas...and then again...you're off the mark.

I don't really think I am off of my mark. I used to live in Vegas and run a highly succesfull business in North Las Vegas. I know the ins and outs of Las Vegas and Clark County. And with the state of the U.S. economy it affects the world economy, especially the east Asia countries. They would come in droves to Vegas in the chartered busses. I know this, and I know that Vegas is severely effected as we speak.

But somehow now that a casino group TPG is going to be the backbone of dumping many, many millions of dollars to prop up an NHL franchise in a non traditional hockey market, and hope and praying that their lackluster television revenue supports this. I am not dumping on Vegas, because it is a great city. But this will turn out to be another disaster just like Phoenix and Nashville. As a former business owner I would definetly be doing my homework before investing, I am sorry throwing away a hundred million dollars or two. I would be surprised to see this thing come full circle in Vegas.

And to be a sucessfull franchise that can endure the ups and downs will need good ownership, hockey people that know the game. Not a bunch of casino stiffs that do nothing but count their chips. What happens when they start losing or never win? Plus you can't pin your success on the revenue that the opponent might bring. Its not like they would play the Wings, Rangers, Habs, and Leafs every game.

having a team in Vegas is definetly a sexy idea, and could work. And of course one game at a casino like the MGM Grand would totally sell out. But tell me who is going to be in the seats on a Wednesday night when this team is playing Nashville? exactly. Nobody. People dont come to Vegas to watch hockey or go to a game, cause most likely they already have a local team at home. I would say basketball has a better chance at relocating a franchise there then hockey does.

Edited February 10, 2009 by miller76

[w1ng3dLV 3]

...And to be a sucessfull franchise that can endure the ups and downs will need good ownership, hockey people that know the game. Not a bunch of casino stiffs that do nothing but count their chips. What happens when they start losing or never win? Plus you can't pin your success on the revenue that the opponent might bring. Its not like they would play the Wings, Rangers, Habs, and Leafs every game.

having a team in Vegas is definetly a sexy idea, and could work. And of course one game at a casino like the MGM Grand would totally sell out. But tell me who is going to be in the seats on a Wednesday night when this team is playing Nashville? exactly. Nobody. People dont come to Vegas to watch hockey or go to a game, cause most likely they already have a local team at home. I would say basketball has a better chance at relocating a franchise there then hockey does.

You speak business, yet you overlook the fundamentals. The reason why I say this is because, when an owner buys a franchise (Mike Illitch - baseball player, pizza owner, Tigers owner) they hire key members to run their business (Devellano, Murray, Bowman, and Holland) to build the franchise. So for the Stiffs in Vegas to count their chips and the Illitch's to toss the dough, per say, would be their role. It's the talent that they surround themselves with, or am I wrong on the business standpoint? For the most part, expansion teams do suffer during their building stage (just like most business models). Granted, the Illitch's purchased the Wings after the "Dead Wings" era and had Yzerman in '83. But it was the people that Mike Illitch had around him that made the Wings who they are today. I'm sure, that the future owners of any professional team that may or may not come here would do the same if given the opportunity. In regars to the economy, we are hurting. Tourism isn't at it's highest. But that will change.

Again, your perspective on filling the arena is solely on "VACATIONERS". What about the million plus people that call this place home? I do agree, that Vegas may be a long shot. But for you to say that a basketball team would prosper and a hockey team would fail doesn't make much sense. Whether it fails or succeeds is not for you or I to say because it's unknown, because Vegas has NEVER had a professional team, period. We have nothing to gauge against. The other cities that you've mentioned ALSO have more than one sports team.

Vegas is a transient state. People move here from all over the states. You can't tell me that there are people here that would kill to see their home teams play, and to have something that they can claim as their own.

If Vegas is a non traditional place for Hockey...then why have they moved the NHL Awards from Toronto to the Palms Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas? Why would the likes of Pat LaFontaine and Luc Robitaille have a celebrity charity game on the 18th of June which is shortly after the playoffs and right before the draft in Montreal? Why would the NHL place so much effort into "Sin City" if it weren't an ideal spot?

[miller76 463]

You speak business, yet you overlook the fundamentals. The reason why I say this is because, when an owner buys a franchise (Mike Illitch - baseball player, pizza owner, Tigers owner) they hire key members to run their business (Devellano, Murray, Bowman, and Holland) to build the franchise. So for the Stiffs in Vegas to count their chips and the Illitch's to toss the dough, per say, would be their role. It's the talent that they surround themselves with, or am I wrong on the business standpoint? For the most part, expansion teams do suffer during their building stage (just like most business models). Granted, the Illitch's purchased the Wings after the "Dead Wings" era and had Yzerman in '83. But it was the people that Mike Illitch had around him that made the Wings who they are today. I'm sure, that the future owners of any professional team that may or may not come here would do the same if given the opportunity. In regars to the economy, we are hurting. Tourism isn't at it's highest. But that will change.

Again, your perspective on filling the arena is solely on "VACATIONERS". What about the million plus people that call this place home? I do agree, that Vegas may be a long shot. But for you to say that a basketball team would prosper and a hockey team would fail doesn't make much sense. Whether it fails or succeeds is not for you or I to say because it's unknown, because Vegas has NEVER had a professional team, period. We have nothing to gauge against. The other cities that you've mentioned ALSO have more than one sports team.

Vegas is a transient state. People move here from all over the states. You can't tell me that there are people here that would kill to see their home teams play, and to have something that they can claim as their own.

If Vegas is a non traditional place for Hockey...then why have they moved the NHL Awards from Toronto to the Palms Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas? Why would the likes of Pat LaFontaine and Luc Robitaille have a celebrity charity game on the 18th of June which is shortly after the playoffs and right before the draft in Montreal? Why would the NHL place so much effort into "Sin City" if it weren't an ideal spot?

Okay first of all, someone running a business never overlooks the fundamentals. Your there to make a profit first. Am I right? Surrounding themselves with good people to run your business is key. Just because I didn't state it in my previous post doesn't mean I don't believe in the obvious! I was making more of a broad statement that this type of owners group may fall into the same trap these other owners have fallen into, purely on the fact that they are in a non traditional hockey market with very weak tv revenue. The Illitch's are an exceptional ownership and to compare them with a casino owners group isn't really fair. I don't know how much hockey sense the Illitchs had when purchasing the team. But the team had history and a bright future with a superstar of the league. Nobody really knows who would run a team in Vegas. And I know for a fact that the population 'this million +' you speak of are going to fill an arena. Okay! I would like to see that. In an extremely blue collar city, where everyone is living check to check

I have no bone to pick with Las Vegas. I love it there, most of the time. And it's not that I wouldn't want a hockey team there, cause I actually do. I love hockey, and if there is one more venue within reasonable driving distance; I am there! But does the NHL need another team that they have to prop up and then live under the constant scrutiny of all the gaming that in gulfs that city? That is probably the main reason Vegas has never been succesfull at landing a franchise in any sport. This is definetly not the first time Vegas has come up at a possible destination.

And in response to you asking why the nhl awards and the golf tournaments and this and that event has been moved and is now in Vegas is simple. It's warm. Golf sucks when it's cold. It's a vacation destination, just like Hawaii, hence the Pro-Bowl for the NFL.

[2probert4 8]

Didn't he just tell Ron McLean that this was not the case? Sounds like a rat....

Bettman is a world class liar, he won't ever admit that he made a mistake and the rest of the NHL will have to support this money pit. The info is out there on the Phoenix situation, and this moron thinks if he denies it that the problem will just go away. Same with Nashville and other teams.... Nashville releases press statement "We made 2 mill last year yay for us! " but thats AFTER the revenue sharing they get from the league. (approx 15 mill) Another losing money team thats protected by Uncle gary.

[evilmrt 636]

Why would Bettman/NHL BOG allow franchises to re-locate to Phoenix, & expand in Nashville, & Atlanta?

$$$ talks, & $hit walks.

An NBA franchise would have ALOT better chance of survival in Lost Wages than the NHL; that's a no brainer.

Doesn't anyone remember the huge disaster that the NBA 2007 All-Star game was, when they held it in Las Vegas? The town was rumored to be getting a team sometime in the future....and then the All-Star game happened, and it embarassed the league in front of the whole country.

Gunplay. Strippers. Nightclub brawls. Rude patrons. Negative press. These were not the phrases NBA Commissioner David Stern had in mind when the league scheduled its first All-Star Game in a non-NBA market, Las Vegas.

Sin City pulled out all the stops to attract and host the NBA's annual celebration, never anticipating that what was on display would be the same characteristics of bling culture that horrified fans and media after the Pistons-Pacers melee. Just when The League had recovered from this season's Nuggets-Knicks fracas, people over whom it has no jurisdiction- weekend attendees and NFL cornerback Pacman Jones, help turn Vegas into the Old West.

source article

I know I've been arguing against moving the Yotes to Vegas, but it seems like an NHL team would be more attractive to the city than an NBA (or even NFL!) because of the reasons above. But some of the same things would apply to having ANY pro team in Vegas, and that might be enough for the league to pass on the city.

[w1ng3dLV 3]

Okay first of all, someone running a business never overlooks the fundamentals. Your there to make a profit first. Am I right?

The Illitch's are an exceptional ownership and to compare them with a casino owners group isn't really fair. I don't know how much hockey sense the Illitchs had when purchasing the team. But the team had history and a bright future with a superstar of the league. Nobody really knows who would run a team in Vegas. And I know for a fact that the population 'this million +' you speak of are going to fill an arena. Okay! I would like to see that. In an extremely blue collar city, where everyone is living check to check

The whole purpose to start a business is to make profit?!? OF COURSE! But the first priority for any business model is customer retention. Can't have retention without an opportunity.

History lesson - Illitch's bought the Red Wings in summer of '82. That same years was the first NHL Draft they ever did. Jim Devellano (General Manager at the time Senior Vice President now) wanted Pat LaFontaine in '83 but he went 3rd to the Islanders. Devellano "settled" on Yzerman as the 4th pick. That's how much they knew. As we all know, when your team picks early, you're not a power house. So from '83 to the early '90's was pure developmental for the Wings (attendance retention and so forth). The rest is history.

Isn't Detroit a blue collar city? Where everyone is living check to check?

I think the bottom line is, we're gonna debate this just to debate. I know for a fact we agree on a lot, and our disagreement is truly to a minimal. I admit that my view is purely bias and I truly do have fears of having a pro sports team here and it tanking. That would leave a nasty taste in the city of Las Vegas. But...if it succeeded...if it were given the chance and was able to hold its own....that's the variable I wish I could simply bet on.

Cheers to you Miller76.

[betterREDthandead 58]

having a team in Vegas is definetly a sexy idea, and could work. And of course one game at a casino like the MGM Grand would totally sell out. But tell me who is going to be in the seats on a Wednesday night when this team is playing Nashville? exactly. Nobody. People dont come to Vegas to watch hockey or go to a game, cause most likely they already have a local team at home. I would say basketball has a better chance at relocating a franchise there then hockey does.

If people don't go to Vegas for the sake of watching a hockey game because there's already one at home, what makes that different from basketball?

[w1ng3dLV 3]

Doesn't anyone remember the huge disaster that the NBA 2007 All-Star game was, when they held it in Las Vegas? The town was rumored to be getting a team sometime in the future....and then the All-Star game happened, and it embarassed the league in front of the whole country.

source article

I know I've been arguing against moving the Yotes to Vegas, but it seems like an NHL team would be more attractive to the city than an NBA (or even NFL!) because of the reasons above. But some of the same things would apply to having ANY pro team in Vegas, and that might be enough for the league to pass on the city.

Yeah, that whole fiasco was scary. Vegas does have that strange element. Thank God Plaxico wasn't in Vegas when he shot himself, cause they'd probably pin that on us too.

[miller76 463]

If people don't go to Vegas for the sake of watching a hockey game because there's already one at home, what makes that different from basketball?

All I was saying basketball would probably have a higher chance of survival in Las Vegas then hockey, when I posted it. I forgot that the likelyhood of a team surviving there after the ref scandal would be less likely. And no I wouldn't go to Vegas to watch basketball.

I think the bottom line is, we're gonna debate this just to debate. I know for a fact we agree on a lot, and our disagreement is truly to a minimal. I admit that my view is purely bias and I truly do have fears of having a pro sports team here and it tanking. That would leave a nasty taste in the city of Las Vegas. But...if it succeeded...if it were given the chance and was able to hold its own....that's the variable I wish I could simply bet on.

Cheers to you Miller76.

Your right, we could debate this for eons. And I even wanted to retract a statement I made earlier about basketball. I think with the ref scandal in the NBA really hurt their chances of ever landing a basketball team there.

Cheers to you as well w1ng3dLV

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Possible sale?