Bettman Tried Three Times to Sell Coyotes

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Bettman: "Who told you that?" Classic; last time I heard him ask that question was in a Ron MacLean interview. "Stroumbo" is one of the best.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Maine? North Dakota?

The entire population of North Dakota is 100,000 people less than the city of Austin. Even adding in South Dakota, you still have a population that is less than Metro Detroit area. No way you'd have the corporate support either that's so important. Maine isn't much better either.

If a NHL team is interested in moving, they would be more than welcome in Houston. NHL ready arena, good corporate support, youth hockey is booming in Texas, large population, built in rival with Dallas, and Texas is one of the few states where the economy isn't completely going to s***.

Actually I have to say that makes 100% sense. Houston is a fantastic city to begin with, add the Dallas rivalry in and you've got a winning formula. Texans do love their sports...

[vangvace 12]

San Juan.

You get 2 new mid-major cable networks to tap into to offset lower ticket prices.

Largely untapped corperate sponsors available.

NHL ready arena already.

Easy place to lure players to.

[evilmrt 636]

I would think Milwaukee would be a pretty decent spot if Phoenix has to move.

that sets up instant rivalries with Chicago and Minnesota and would allow Columbus to move to the East so they MIGHT make the playoffs by 2015

Yeah, this makes SO MUCH MORE sense than Vegas! Wisconsin is huge on hockey culture, and they have no pro team! I cannot for the life of me understand why you guys think Las Vegas would support an NHL team...in many ways, its worse than Phoenix is. Fanbase? What kind of fanbase do you think you're going to get? You'll just have a bunch of tourists at every game....

[vangvace 12]

Yeah, this makes SO MUCH MORE sense than Vegas! Wisconsin is huge on hockey culture, and they have no pro team! I cannot for the life of me understand why you guys think Las Vegas would support an NHL team...in many ways, its worse than Phoenix is. Fanbase? What kind of fanbase do you think you're going to get? You'll just have a bunch of tourists at every game....

And what type of cooperate sponsorship are you going to get out of Wisconsin? Look at the Devils... crap fanbase, but good sponsors.

[Cern 0]

A study was done from a group in Winnipeg to see what or how it could be done to get a NHL team back. The average ticket price of a game would have to average $93 (considerably higher than almost every team, and in a small market its not sustainable over time)! AND, that was just to make the team survive with the team only spending the very minimum of Cap Space based on 2 years ago Cap Numbers. I would hate to see what the average TIX price would have to be with the Cap increasing as much as it has in the 2 years since the study. Its just not going to happen!

http://www.jetsowner.com/howmuch.htm

Somebody's already done the math on this. I've never been particularly mathematically inclined so I don't know if there's something wrong with these numbers, but they suggest numbers much lower than everyone is eager to throw around.

I also don't buy this argument that it would never work in Winnipeg because 'it didn't work the first time'. The Bay Area didn't work the first time. Minnesota didn't work the first time. Ohio didn't work the first time. Colorado didn't work the first time. Atlanta didn't work the first time. Were the same fatalist remarks made when the Sharks or the Wild were established?

That said, I'm curious as to whether there's any potential for a team in Seattle. It could fill a nice space vacated by the Sonics and there's lots of potential to build a big rivalry with Vancouver.

[Cern 0]

I'd put the team in Vegas. At least in Vegas the team would sell out every damn game.

How? There are literally a million better things to do in Vegas than watch a hockey game. Honestly I'd just rather see the franchise fold if that's the only other alternative. The league has already overextended itself in the talent pool and in fan following.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Cern

[VM1138 1,921]

A Dallas-Houston rivalry could be interesting. As could a Wisconsin team. I'm not sure I want a team in Southern Ontario. Taking fans away from the Leafs AND the Red Wings? Erm..no thanks.

[Cern 0]

*doubleposted*

Edited February 7, 2009 by Cern

[miller76 463]

Taking fans away from the Leafs AND the Red Wings? Erm..no thanks.

I really wonder if thats possible. Many years of a staple like the Leafs and Wings, losing out to an expansion team!

[Cern 0]

And for the record- anyone who yaps about hockey not belonging in the south needs to just shut up at this point. There are plenty of teams struggling in traditional markets and plenty of teams thriving in non-traditional markets. It's 2009, not 1809... the concept of Hockey belonging only to persons who live in an area with sub-zero winters is quaint at best.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009

SEVEN of the bottom ten teams in the league are sunshine, every last one of them with a ticket sale % of less than 90 - some as low as the high 70s. And these are just the raw ticket release counts - the number of tickets not simply given away is going to be lower, and in turn so is the number of people who actually bother to attend.

The only Canadian franchise that ISN'T in the top ten teams in the league is Edmonton, and that's only because Rexall Place is a tiny, ancient arena - bump it to a 19000-seat arena and you'd probably STILL have sellouts. Furthermore all of those franchises are hosting games with 100% capacity - or even higher. f***, the only sunshine teams that are in the top half of the league in attendance are Washington and Dallas, barely edging themselves into 14th and 15th place. And it's not like recent success of those franchises is doing anything to build a fanbase either - Carolina has terrible attendance, and Anaheim could barely get enough locals interested in their cup win to fill the Pond's parking lot. Obviously it isn't cut and dry - the Islanders and the Devils in particular prove the major exceptions, and frankly I'd be just as happy to see one of them gone as I would the Thrashers - but the trend is overwhelmingly clear that this idea there exists some kind of geographical parity is bogus.

You're right: it's not a matter of hockey belonging only to winter climates, it's a matter of the only people in warmer climates that aren't emphatically making a statement that they aren't interested is the sponsors. Hockey has been, is, and always will be considered a joke in the South.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Cern

[MacK_Attack 108]

I really wonder if thats possible. Many years of a staple like the Leafs and Wings, losing out to an expansion team!

Absolutely. Lots of ex-Habs & Leafs fans in Ottawa who are now Senators fans.

[Yak19 303]

Hamilton would be the number 1 option in Canada, 3 Ontario teams would be something and i bet they would sell like the leafs, people would flock from surrounding areas, games would sellout.

Seattle would be cool in the U.S, they did lose the Supersonics but i hear hockey is pretty big over there, northern city, could be interesting.

And the Wings and Leafs (2 original 6 teams) will not lose any fans if Phoenix moved to Hamilton, it would probably be jets fans getting back on the pony.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Yak19

[thedisappearer 291]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009

SEVEN of the bottom ten teams in the league are sunshine, every last one of them with a ticket sale % of less than 90 - some as low as the high 70s.

The only Canadian franchise that ISN'T in the top ten teams in the league is Edmonton, and that's only because Rexall Place is a tiny, ancient arena - bump it to a 19000-seat arena and you'd probably STILL have sellouts. Furthermore all of those franchises are hosting games with 100% capacity - or even higher. f***, the only sunshine teams that are in the top half of the league in attendance are Washington and Dallas, barely edging themselves into 14th and 15th place. And it's not like recent success of those franchises is doing anything to build a fanbase either - Carolina has terrible attendance, and Anaheim could barely get enough locals interested in their cup win to fill the Pond's parking lot. Obviously it isn't cut and dry - the Islanders and the Devils in particular prove the major exceptions, and frankly I'd be just as happy to see one of them gone as I would the Thrashers - but the trend is overwhelmingly clear that this idea there exists some kind of geographical parity is bogus.

You're right: it's not a matter of hockey belonging only to winter climates, it's a matter of warmer climates emphatically making a statement that they aren't interested. Hockey has been, is, and always will be considered a joke in the South.

Washington is a sunshine team? They are, like, a minute north of Philly and further north than St Louis and Denver, if my map is correct.

Edited February 7, 2009 by thedisappearer

[miller76 463]

Absolutely. Lots of ex-Habs & Leafs fans in Ottawa who are now Senators fans.

I guess it would be what type of fan you are. I could never take on another team. Even when Anaheim showed up a little over 15 years ago. I could have easily jumped on the bandwagon. And out here, you are either a Duck fan or a King fan. There is no inter-mingling between the two.

[eva unit zero 271]

The top ten cities to consider when moving the Coyotes, or any other potential movers or expansion teams, would be:

Seattle, WA/Portland. OR

Milwaukee, WI/Madison, WI

Houston, TX

Kansas City, KS

Las Vegas, NV

Salt Lake City, UT

Oklahoma City, OK

Indianapolis, IN

Kitchener, ON/Hamilton, ON

Grand Rapids, MI

That's the list I would work from when considering new cities for NHL franchises. The three times where two cities are mentioned, it is because If more than one franchise were moving/being started, I would only use one of those cities due to proximity to each other. Other cities, such as Oakland/San Francisco, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnatti, Baltimore, Memphis, Orlando, Ann Arbor, and Cleveland, among others, were not considered due to proximity to existing franchises. All of those cities would be able to support an NHL franchise if not for the proximity rule preventing them from obtaining one.

[Peleshob 0]

The sad part is that the team is actually going to be able to make a healthy run soon, if not this year. It almost seems like a waste to have an up-and-coming team in a market that cannot/does not appreciate it. Plus, if the team is in a more popular market then more people will see Gretzky's head blow up when Dats pwns his team.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Just curious, here. Why Grand Rapids?

[C-TownWing 0]

Absolutely. Lots of ex-Habs & Leafs fans in Ottawa who are now Senators fans.

Exactly...the Sens have fans and they came from somewhere. Presumably, most of them liked hockey and had another favorite team (likely the Leafs or Habs based on geography) before the Sens were around.

It's not perfectly analogous since I'm not in Columbus, but I never had anything of an urge to defect when the BJs came into the league. I don't understand how you can invest so much in a team over a lot of years and then just flip it off and pick another one just because they happen to be based closer to your hometown.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Yeah, this makes SO MUCH MORE sense than Vegas! Wisconsin is huge on hockey culture, and they have no pro team! I cannot for the life of me understand why you guys think Las Vegas would support an NHL team...in many ways, its worse than Phoenix is. Fanbase? What kind of fanbase do you think you're going to get? You'll just have a bunch of tourists at every game....

Yeah- no one lives in Vegas 365 days a year.

Vegas is an effing huge city with an incredible number of transplats. The tourists/Casino comp packages just ensure there's always sell outs.

Having a 41 game a year sell out franchise can only HELP the NHL and the sport. I don't care if it's in Vegas or Halifax (my home town).

There is no NHL, NBA, MLB or NFL franchise in Vegas. I assure you- the first one there will flourish.

f*** snow. I live in the maritimes- we're fricking hockey nuts here, but I'm not dilluted enough to believe that means it makes business sense to move a franchise here over somewhere with millions of people and an absolutely massive cooperate structure that is completely untapped in terms of major sport franchises.

[BlakChamber 8]

The top ten cities to consider when moving the Coyotes, or any other potential movers or expansion teams, would be:

Seattle, WA/Portland. OR

Milwaukee, WI/Madison, WI

Houston, TX

Kansas City, KS

Las Vegas, NV

Salt Lake City, UT

Oklahoma City, OK

Indianapolis, IN

Kitchener, ON/Hamilton, ON

Grand Rapids, MI

While I realize it's last on your list, there would need to be a major expansion of Van Andel for it to be suitable for a NHL team. There's less than 50 boxes, and I believe the total seating is just under 11,000. Good for an AHL team, but not an NHL team.

[Winger19 4]

I still don't get why Seattle keeps coming up. Their arena is a dump, it's old, outdated and absolutely horrible for hockey. Before they could even consider an NHL team they would need an arena. Key Arena was renovated in the 90s and when the owner got wind that the NHL was interested in that area, he altered the arena so that hockey would not work properly. The Ice plant/piping in that place is off centered to the seats so that on one end of the ice the seats stop at the just before the hash marks. The Seattle Thunderbirds played there for quite a while and it was possibly one of the worst places to watch a hockey game.

<END RANT>

[eva unit zero 271]

Just curious, here. Why Grand Rapids?

Because Grand Rapids is a good-sized city that is halfway between Detroit and Chicago, near the west coast of Michigan, and easily accessible via Amtrak from Detroit and Chicago, as well as being accessible directly via interstate.

You'll notice it was well down the list. The ideal number of teams, IMHO, would be 32. That would allow for two 16-team conferences with 8-team divisions. If we assume that we have two new expansion teams, then we'll have teams in Portland and Madison, which I think are probably more suitable than Seattle and Milwaukee, respectively. That adds two teams in what is currently the Western Conference, meaning one team would have to shift East. That team would be either Detroit or Columbus. However, if another team moved, Houston and Kansas City are the next two cities on my list, which would mean Detroit would also move East if the moving team was one of the rumored Eastern Conference team such as Florida, Atlanta, Carolina, or NY Islanders. Florida is the team I have heard the most rumors about, given the fact that the team has typically been bad and Tampa has generally had success.

With those "theoretical" moves and Detroit and Columbus moving East, we end up with conferences looking like this:

Northwest: Calgary, Chicago, Colorado, Edmonton, Madison, Minnesota, Portland, Vancouver

Southwest: Anaheim, Dallas, Houston, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Nashville, St. Louis, San Jose

Northeast: Boston, Buffalo, Columbus, Detroit, Montreal, Ottawa, Pittsburgh, Toronto

Southeast: Atlanta, Carolina, New Jersey, NY Islanders, NY Rangers, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, Washington

[eva unit zero 271]

I still don't get why Seattle keeps coming up. Their arena is a dump, it's old, outdated and absolutely horrible for hockey. Before they could even consider an NHL team they would need an arena. Key Arena was renovated in the 90s and when the owner got wind that the NHL was interested in that area, he altered the arena so that hockey would not work properly. The Ice plant/piping in that place is off centered to the seats so that on one end of the ice the seats stop at the just before the hash marks. The Seattle Thunderbirds played there for quite a while and it was possibly one of the worst places to watch a hockey game.

That's not even the biggest reason Seattle isn't the best choice for a team; Seattle is not terribly far from Portland, which has a better arena and is further from Vancouver. Portland is a MUCH better choice for expansion or relocation than Seattle would be; There's not even a debate.

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

Washington is a sunshine team? They are, like, a minute north of Philly and further north than St Louis and Denver, if my map is correct.

Washington is on the Virginia border, so no it is not north of Philly. It might be pretty close to being on the same level as St. Louis and Denver, but keep in mind that Denver is much colder because of the altitude.