Hossa and Franzen to Stay?//Merged

[Guest MrSandMan]

I am not happy if they lose Hudler, especially if Filppula could be traded instead.

Hudler is already more offensively potent than Franzen... how much better will he be in a few years and with more ice time?

or how much worse can he be with more ice time? We don't know that he will excel with more ice time in the NHL level. How do we know if Babs figured out the perfect balance for Hudler his performance / ice time?

I'm not saying either way how Hudler will perform with more ice time, but I do think Babcock knows more how to handle his players than anyone on these forums. Him not getting more ice time is certainly telling.

I'll keep Fil, thanks anyhow!

[StormJH1 231]

I gotta be honest, I'm not happy at all with the idea of losing Hudler & Sammy.

As someone else has already said, why lose Hudler when you could trade Flip? Hudler has shown more to this team in terms of producing than Flip has.

If you would've asked me last season if I'd be okay trading Sammy, I would've said yes. But this season? No way. He's showing an amazing burst of potential. Why trade him away when he's having one of his best seasons in years? Sammy is a bargain for what we pay him.

Wow, I'm a little surprised by how optimistic people are about Filppula here.

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.ph...E&pid=64511

I mean, the most the guy scored at ANY level since 2003 was 20 goals. I'd also be cautious about relying on assists on a talented team like the Wings. You can find your way into a decent number of assists just by playing alongside talented scorers on a hot streak. Filppula just looks soft to me. I did think he played well in the '08 Playoffs, but I'm not convinced that Leino, Helm, or any number of quality finesse/grinder prospects in our organization could do his job for about 1/3 of the price. It's not the big contracts that really kill you with the salary cap...it's a collection of smaller overpriced ones that you can't move that really do you in.

Keeping a core group of Datsyuk, Hank, and Hossa together will make this a top-level team for years, because I have the confidence in our organization to know that they will develop or find quality role players to fill in the other lines, even if they only have around room for entry-level contracts.

[TheOwl 77]

Franzen at 4 mil is crap. He's so overrated. If his predictions come true and he signs before Hossa I'll be extremely disappointed because that'll mean losing flip to keep hossa and that is no where near worth it. I'll take Hossa/flip before hossa/franzen all day long.

Flipulla over Franzen? You're crazy man. Franzen is worth a lot more then Flipulla. Did you even watch last seasons play-offs? Who scored the most goals per game? Franzen? Yeah, real over-rated. Stop the bs.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Wow, I'm a little surprised by how optimistic people are about Filppula here.

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.ph...E&pid=64511

I mean, the most the guy scored at ANY level since 2003 was 20 goals. I'd also be cautious about relying on assists on a talented team like the Wings. You can find your way into a decent number of assists just by playing alongside talented scorers on a hot streak. Filppula just looks soft to me. I did think he played well in the '08 Playoffs, but I'm not convinced that Leino, Helm, or any number of quality finesse/grinder prospects in our organization could do his job for about 1/3 of the price. It's not the big contracts that really kill you with the salary cap...it's a collection of smaller overpriced ones that you can't move that really do you in.

Keeping a core group of Datsyuk, Hank, and Hossa together will make this a top-level team for years, because I have the confidence in our organization to know that they will develop or find quality role players to fill in the other lines, even if they only have around room for entry-level contracts.

Maybe you misunderstood my post? I was saying I'd rather have Hudler than Flip because Hudler has shown a lot more in terms of potential to this team than Flip has.

I agree with you 100%. Flip looks soft, and Leino/Helm could easily take over his roll and do a better job.

[Guest MrSandMan]

Wow, I'm a little surprised by how optimistic people are about Filppula here.

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.ph...E&pid=64511

I mean, the most the guy scored at ANY level since 2003 was 20 goals. I'd also be cautious about relying on assists on a talented team like the Wings. You can find your way into a decent number of assists just by playing alongside talented scorers on a hot streak. Filppula just looks soft to me. I did think he played well in the '08 Playoffs, but I'm not convinced that Leino, Helm, or any number of quality finesse/grinder prospects in our organization could do his job for about 1/3 of the price. It's not the big contracts that really kill you with the salary cap...it's a collection of smaller overpriced ones that you can't move that really do you in.

Keeping a core group of Datsyuk, Hank, and Hossa together will make this a top-level team for years, because I have the confidence in our organization to know that they will develop or find quality role players to fill in the other lines, even if they only have around room for entry-level contracts.

Scotty Bowman's *theory* of the game is much different from yours. Mr. Bowman believed that defensive plays comes first, scoring comes late second. Fil is a defensive minded forward who is known to score that timely clutch goal. He is also the kid that I remember watching shut down Malkin last year during the SCFs.

This notion that players who single handedly score lots of goals wins championships is a bit skewed. Mr. Bowman (and coach Babcock) have rings proving their theory is fact.

Can Hudler shut down players like Crosby, Malkin, Iginla? I'm not so sure...

[Wingsallwin 0]

Next year, according to the cap chart, we have 10 million left on our cap. And we know Nick is getting old right now and Chelli will possibly retire after this season. Yes Eriksson can do the job but it will be almost impossible to get the guy who can replace Nick. Then, we have two choices. We should get a goalie that can absorb many shots like Luongo, or having 2 good defensive pairs right now.

Personally, I would follow to take a goalie. It is almost impossible for us to alternate Nick's role right now. There is no one in the league who can replace the job like Nick. Then, as we consider Raffy, Kronwall are very offensive defenses and Stuart is a big hitter with Lilja, we cannot be sure that our defenses will be this solid in the future after Nick ends his prime.

Besides, if Franzen takes 4 million, that's absolutely an overpayment. I think people are thinking too much of his last season's playoff performance. He was terrific but if he takes 4 million, that sounds ridiculous to me. He is boomed lately and if Hossa says between 6-6.5, then I am gonna resign Hossa and keep the core with Huds. If Huds takes 2 million and increasing the cap hit as the time passes more and more, that comes out with pretty much deal. Then 2 millions are left and we cannot resign Franzen.

Don't forget Leino will be RFA too after this season. As the futurue consideration, we should keep him here.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Flipulla over Franzen? You're crazy man. Franzen is worth a lot more then Flipulla. Did you even watch last seasons play-offs? Who scored the most goals per game? Franzen? Yeah, real over-rated. Stop the bs.

He scored 50% of his goals from tap ins from Z facing a s*** avalanche team. He's scored 8 goals and 4 assists for 12 points in his past 20 games. Flip has 11. Worth a lot more huh? Like I've said 1000 times before. Franzen is great at scoring goals if he gets a nice pass/opportunity no doubt, but he does nothing past that and doesn't create his own opprotunities (except his one highlight goal this year and against pittsburhg in the playoffs). In a few years, flip is going to be worth more than huds or franzen. Mark my words.

Flip shows way more potential than Hudler ever has, that is a fact. Hudler just has some extra offensive instinct, something that flip will gain in time and when he does he is going to be a beast.

[Wingsallwin 0]

By the way, I don't understand people here bashing Filp. He has not been good but lately, his movement has been improved and don't forget he is young and still very good defensively. If he comes to play defensive game first, offensive skill will follow up. Moreover, this season he makes only 2 million.

It just seems like people bashing him because he was good last season's playoff and now he is not good. What's the difference between Filp and Osgood then? Osgood has been worse than Filp. And if someone bashes Osgood, Osgood protectors are like "you are idiot, you bash Osgood just because he only sucks this season".

[egroen 384]

I view Hudler as more important to keep than even Franzen (especially if we are able to keep Hossa).

He's outproduced Franzen every year, is younger with more potential and has not been injured as much... and will most likely be a lot cheaper.

Hossa>Hudler>Franzen>Filppula>Samuelsson

In terms of value for perceived salary.

[egroen 384]

Scotty Bowman's *theory* of the game is much different from yours. Mr. Bowman believed that defensive plays comes first, scoring comes late second. Fil is a defensive minded forward who is known to score that timely clutch goal. He is also the kid that I remember watching shut down Malkin last year during the SCFs.

This notion that players who single handedly score lots of goals wins championships is a bit skewed. Mr. Bowman (and coach Babcock) have rings proving their theory is fact.

Can Hudler shut down players like Crosby, Malkin, Iginla? I'm not so sure...

I think not even Bowman would be able to win with a team full of Drapers.

I think more correctly, Bowman believed in balance, and this team already has a plethora of defensively responsible forwards.

[egroen 384]

Flip shows way more potential than Hudler ever has, that is a fact. Hudler just has some extra offensive instinct, something that flip will gain in time and when he does he is going to be a beast.

Exactly the opposite is usually true. Defense can be taught, but not good hands.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Exactly the opposite is usually true. Defense can be taught, but not good hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=880nfNNMYcU

So those were all accidents? Maybe he tripped on the pittsburgh goal.

Don't have time to watch this but I'm sure it showcases some of flip's potential:

[steveyzerman 0]

Does anyone realize that we're talking about MARIAN ******* HOSSA?! The guy wants to stay. They guy's willing to take a pay cut. He's a goddamned machine. I love Franzen I want them both. But...

MARIAN HOSSA!

I really think he's found his place now. On a line where he can move around & control the flow.

& like I've said from the beginning put The Hank & Pavel Show back together, they just feed off of each other. Marian is just fine on his own.

Edited February 11, 2009 by steveyzerman

[egroen 384]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=880nfNNMYcU

So those were all accidents? Maybe he tripped on the pittsburgh goal.

Don't have time to watch this but I'm sure it showcases some of flip's potential:

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=64511

Filppula has hands of stone only slightly better than Draper.

He completely misses the net more often than not

[talex 1]

let's see...

Keep both, possibly dump Flip, Sammy, Huds, Maltby, Cheli, Mac, Draper and soon Nick will be gone, Homer will not be around alot longer either... penguins anyone?

NO THANKS!

Z, Dats, Homer and Cleary are all great players but like all great players they need a good supporting cast in order to be on a great team, I simply do not like the idea of ripping 1/2 the team apart with little to no cap room when some of guys retire all the while depending on GR to bat 100% with some of the young talent there, sure these kids are good, but they are not proven over the long haul, I have the opportunity to watch these GR guys several times a year and I can tell you Howard is a big question mark, very simular to Ozzy. I have seen the Milwaukee Admirals beat these guys 4 times now in a row (in Milwaukee) and have watched several games in GR. Larson seems solid enough, but I would consider him unproven... lieno plays solid, but the couple games he has played in the NHL is not enough with what I have seen to convince me he could replace Sammy, Huds or Flip. Helm is solid enough and I would deem him reliable enough to be on the wings, Adelkader is very close, but I am not sure he is ready for a full time spot, regardless in a year or 2 they very well might require a decent payday themselves if they do well.

I am sticking by thought that they should sign either Hossa or Franzen and keep as much the supporting cast together as possible, leave some cap room in case our young guns are in need of a raise rather than lossing them and possibly some space to fill in gaps that may appear. I would lean to signing in the order of Hossa as priority then Franzen, although if Franzen comes in near 3, then get him, but leave as much of last years core in tact beyond these 2 as possible, bringing up as many as 5 Griffins I do not believe is the answer.

[steveyzerman 0]

let's see...

Keep both, possibly dump Flip, Sammy, Huds, Maltby, Cheli, Mac, Draper and soon Nick will be gone, Homer will not be around alot longer either... penguins anyone?

NO THANKS!

Z, Dats, Homer and Cleary are all great players but like all great players they need a good supporting cast in order to be on a great team, I simply do not like the idea of ripping 1/2 the team apart with little to no cap room when some of guys retire all the while depending on GR to bat 100% with some of the young talent there, sure these kids are good, but they are not proven over the long haul, I have the opportunity to watch these GR guys several times a year and I can tell you Howard is a big question mark, very simular to Ozzy. I have seen the Milwaukee Admirals beat these guys 4 times now in a row (in Milwaukee) and have watched several games in GR. Larson seems solid enough, but I would consider him unproven... lieno plays solid, but the couple games he has played in the NHL is not enough with what I have seen to convince me he could replace Sammy, Huds or Flip. Helm is solid enough and I would deem him reliable enough to be on the wings, Adelkader is very close, but I am not sure he is ready for a full time spot, regardless in a year or 2 they very well might require a decent payday themselves if they do well.

I am sticking by thought that they should sign either Hossa or Franzen and keep as much the supporting cast together as possible, leave some cap room in case our young guns are in need of a raise rather than lossing them and possibly some space to fill in gaps that may appear. I would lean to signing in the order of Hossa as priority then Franzen, although if Franzen comes in near 3, then get him, but leave as much of last years core in tact beyond these 2 as possible, bringing up as many as 5 Griffins I do not believe is the answer.

You realize that they're going to retire if we keep Hossa & Franzen or not? & when players do retire, their salary comes off the books.

Also, we're talking about Griffins that could be full time first or second liners on more than half the teams in the NHL. (IE QUINCY)

Edited February 11, 2009 by steveyzerman

[Guest MrSandMan]

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=64511

Filppula has hands of stone only slightly better than Draper.

He completely misses the net more often than not

Are you serious? Filppula's 2nd rookie year damn near out performed Draper's best-of-all-time career year in points.

Edit:

Oh-um, as of right now, in 54 games this season, Fil is dominating in points compared to Drapers 9pts.

Edited February 11, 2009 by MrSandMan

[steveyzerman 0]

Are you serious? Filppula's 2nd rookie year damn near out performed Draper's best-of-all-time career year in points.

WHOA! Are YOU serious?!

He also plays on the powerplay.

Edited February 11, 2009 by steveyzerman

[Guest MrSandMan]

WHOA! Are YOU serious?!

He also plays on the powerplay.

That's because Babcock wants the best offensive talent on the PP. Do you know something about Filppula that Babcock doesn't know? Do tell!

[Grim 5]

You realize that they're going to retire if we keep Hossa & Franzen or not? & when players do retire, their salary comes off the books.

no.. im pretty sure the cap hit stays if the player is 35 when the contract is signed.

[steveyzerman 0]

WHOA! Are YOU serious?!

He also plays on the powerplay.

Pst. I do. He's better than Draper offensively. Like was stated.

I was saying that it's not a big deal that Filpulla has more points than Draper.

Now, if you were to say Filpulla has more points than say, Sammy, then I'd... Oh.

Well, I'd call you a liar.

Edited February 11, 2009 by steveyzerman

[steveyzerman 0]

no.. im pretty sure the cap hit stays if the player is 35 when the contract is signed.

ARE WE STILL GIVING DRAKE MONEY?!

I don't think we'll be extending Nick's contract for five years. I'm pretty sure he has an age in mind when to stop.

I can promise you he won't quit in the middle of a season.

Edited February 11, 2009 by steveyzerman

[Johnny Law 15]

I am not happy if they lose Hudler, especially if Filppula could be traded instead.

Hudler is already more offensively potent than Franzen... how much better will he be in a few years and with more ice time?

I truly can't believe I'm saying this but I agree, Franzen is injured more often and will cost a lot more money for what is better but not significantly better play. Franzen can also be lazy, its not often but there are games were he doesn't skate.

Still I think they get rid of Hudler for two reasons, with Hudler you at least get something in return for you assests (picks) and I think they believe they are better at drafting and developing players that play Hudler's game. For whatever reason I think they believe that its more difficult for them to draft and develop a power forward.

What we do know is that Chelios is gone and Meech becomes a hell of alot more important in that he can play both a forward and defensive position.

It certainly will be an interesting off season.

Pure Speculation Disclaimer:

Its also possible that Holland knows something we don't, i.e. someone who isn't Chelios is retiring thus freeing up far more space than we have allotted for. Again this is total BS but to me he doesn't really seem all that concerned with the cap.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

If by some magical chance we can keep Hossa and Franzen by only losing Sammy and Hudler, I'd be okay with that. But if we have to lose Fil, NO WAY! Not worth it. Hossa is not worth us losing all our depth / role players.

+ plus having the cushion of bringing up Grand Rapids players without losing other players on waivers is underrated. It's nice to mix up the roster when the team isn't performing like they should.

So we Flipulla for depth but not Sammy for sub 2 mill a year, or Hudler? PHAIL.

Do not want.

Give me Hossa/Franzen with Sammy and Hudler, and I'm happy. Losing three to keep one is a bad move in terms of depth.

Do. Not. WANT.

DO.AGREE.WITH.STATEMENT

I am not happy if they lose Hudler, especially if Filppula could be traded instead.

Hudler is already more offensively potent than Franzen... how much better will he be in a few years and with more ice time?

Agreed

[steveyzerman 0]

So we Flipulla for depth but not Sammy for sub 2 mill a year, or Hudler? PHAIL.

DO.AGREE.WITH.STATEMENT

Agreed

We're not going to lose three. We're going to lose two. No matter how you cut it.

I'm confident we'll be keeping Franzen & Hossa. Holland's a magician.

Edited February 11, 2009 by steveyzerman