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Z and D for the C

Filppula has the most Even Strength points after Z, D, Hossa

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Osgood's sv% and GAA might be 2 reasons. Not showing much signs of improvement, another.

That doesn't exactly explain what to do to fill the void of a missing cup winning component, plus having three goalies on the roster. Put a gun to Gary's head and make him increase the cap?

A thread is made titled "Fillipula is our 4th best forward."

People point out that Fillipula is far from the 4th best forward on this team.

You then claim the "Flip bashing is ******* retarded."

Maybe I missed something here.

You missed something here. People are all over statistics and comparing it to salary, which don't even favor the argument as he's still statistically improving, but that is beyond the point -- it's simply retarded to bash him based on this. As I pointed out, with Flip it's no different than Yzerman (here's the comparison egroen needs too) in that what they offer isn't entirely related to points, but other essentials that help the team like leadership (like Yzerman's case), effort, energy, (these last two in Filppula's case), and so on, which all help the team win. The biggest draw for Flip since the team decided to keep him up from Grand Rapids was the energy and enthusiasm he brings. As I also mentioned, the PA will never allow a system (nor would any major professional league like the NHL) where players pay is solely related to the points they put up. Simply put, it would be dumb and would never work. Plus, there is nothing wrong with Flip. So the s***ting on him has no merit. Maybe he is the 4th best forward.

Edited by Shoreline

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That doesn't exactly explain what to do to fill the void of a missing cup winning component, plus having three goalies on the roster. Put a gun to Gary's head and make him increase the cap?

You missed something here. People are all over statistics and comparing it to salary, which don't even favor the argument as he's still statistically improving, but that is beyond the point -- it's simply retarded to bash him based on this. As I pointed out, with Flip it's no different than Yzerman (here's the comparison egroen needs too) in that what they offer isn't entirely related to points, but other essentials that help the team like leadership (like Yzerman's case), effort, energy, (these last two in Filppula's case), and so on, which all help the team win. The biggest draw for Flip since the team decided to keep him up from Grand Rapids was the energy and enthusiasm he brings. As I also mentioned, the PA will never allow a system (nor would any major professional league like the NHL) where players pay is solely related to the points they put up. Simply put, it would be dumb and would never work. Plus, there is nothing wrong with Flip. So the s***ting on him has no merit.

Helm has effort and energy beyond that of Filppula - that does not mean he belongs on the second line - and I do not see anyone questioning Hudler's effort and energy this year.

I would want to see Hudler on that 2nd line, because paired with Franzen and Hossa, he is going to create a lot more opportunities for them, plus he is better equiped to bury more passes than Filppula would. With two responsible two-way players on that line already (Hossa and Franzen), I do not put as high of a premium on Filppula's defensive play. IE. that line is already defensively responsible, but we want them to be as dangerous as possible offensively as well - Hudler gives you that in spades over Filppula.

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Helm has effort and energy beyond that of Filppula - that does not mean he belongs on the second line - and I do not see anyone questioning Hudler's effort and energy this year.

I would want to see Hudler on that 2nd line, because paired with Franzen and Hossa, he is going to create a lot more opportunities for them, plus he is better equiped to bury more passes than Filppula would. With two responsible two-way players on that line already (Hossa and Franzen), I do not put as high of a premium on Filppula's defensive play. IE. that line is already defensively responsible, but we want them to be as dangerous as possible offensively as well - Hudler gives you that in spades over Filppula.

Flip earned his spot before Helm. Btw, what line is Flip on now? I don't really care to suggest what lines I'd want as I'm not the coach, don't pay attention to every single shift of who's playing with who, so don't know the chemistry beyond some nice streaks that end up with a lot of goals. I just know that Flip can score (he doesn't have anywhere close to 0 points this season) and has plenty of energy to contribute, so if Babs thinks he belongs on the 2nd line, or if someone thinks he's the 4th best forward, or that he's worth his contract, there really isn't much of an argument against that.

Edited by Shoreline

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That doesn't exactly explain what to do to fill the void of a missing cup winning component, plus having three goalies on the roster. Put a gun to Gary's head and make him increase the cap?

You missed something here. People are all over statistics and comparing it to salary, which don't even favor the argument as he's still statistically improving, but that is beyond the point -- it's simply retarded to bash him based on this. As I pointed out, with Flip it's no different than Yzerman (here's the comparison egroen needs too) in that what they offer isn't entirely related to points, but other essentials that help the team like leadership (like Yzerman's case), effort, energy, (these last two in Filppula's case), and so on, which all help the team win. The biggest draw for Flip since the team decided to keep him up from Grand Rapids was the energy and enthusiasm he brings. As I also mentioned, the PA will never allow a system (nor would any major professional league like the NHL) where players pay is solely related to the points they put up. Simply put, it would be dumb and would never work. Plus, there is nothing wrong with Flip. So the s***ting on him has no merit. Maybe he is the 4th best forward.

Wow - to say you are completely benevolent to reality would be an understatement. That said I am going to waste little to no energy on you because no matter what anyone says or does, or how wrong the statistics show you to be, you simply will refuse to see it any other way then through your clouded googles of ignorance.

I am not comparing statistics to salary - I was comparing statistics of all the Red Wings forwards to illustrate that Flip was not the 4th best forward on the Red Wings -- which Ironically was the title of the thread.

Do yourself a favor and stop attempting to make a point through associating Yzerman and Flip. You sound even more ignorant then you propbably are. There is no comparison. Flip isn't close to the 4th best forward on the Wings.

You know what the difference is between our viewpoint? It's simple, I have an enormanent ammount of backing via statistics of all sorts to back my claim. While you have nothing more then rhetoric, which I might ad you try (often becoming painfully desperate) to dress up with harsh critiques and patronizing insults - you fail however, rather sounding like the kid in your 5th grade class who thought he knew everything about everything but really knew nothing.

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Wow - to say you are completely benevolent to reality would be an understatement. That said I am going to waste little to no energy on you because no matter what anyone says or does, or how wrong the statistics show you to be, you simply will refuse to see it any other way then through your clouded googles of ignorance.

I am not comparing statistics to salary - I was comparing statistics of all the Red Wings forwards to illustrate that Flip was not the 4th best forward on the Red Wings -- which Ironically was the title of the thread.

Do yourself a favor and stop attempting to make a point through associating Yzerman and Flip. You sound even more ignorant then you propbably are. There is no comparison. Flip isn't close to the 4th best forward on the Wings.

You know what the difference is between our viewpoint? It's simple, I have an enormanent ammount of backing via statistics of all sorts to back my claim. While you have nothing more then rhetoric, which I might ad you try (often becoming painfully desperate) to dress up with harsh critiques and patronizing insults - you fail however, rather sounding like the kid in your 5th grade class who thought he knew everything about everything but really knew nothing.

Boy, you sure wasted little time -- not.

I could easily show, by your logic, how Steve Yzerman's lack of point production didn't make him worth the 6 and 8 million he was paid -- hey, stats back it up. You don't need to piss and moan to me about stats. Oh, but wait, looks like you'll call that bulls*** because of who Yzerman is and what he did that doesn't mean s*** statistically -- oops, too late. I can make statistics mean anything, which is why I pay very little attention to stats when I formulate my opinion and get most-to-all of them from watching games or listening to coaches. The coach doesn't coach by the Box Score or stat column on a hockey website, and most on ice judgment calls are made, such as line combos, during the game or in practice. Stats have some meaning, like faceoff % in determining who takes the faceoffs (most likely also on-the-fly/throughout the game) but not in the manner you're clearly using them simply to justify some asinine claim that Flip isn't worth the salary he gets, whereas it's the market that decides (and it decided he does), not your arbitrary usage of statistics.

Lastly, Flip was integral to this team winning the cup, and his production and on-ice effect on the team is close enough to the same to merit suggesting the whining about Flip and connecting that at all to his salary (which will never EVER be perfectly fair in every person's eyes as there are various opinions on what constitutes worthiness of salary, clearly yours differs from the team's, none more important than the team paying Flip) has no basis.

So please, whine to me more about how I need statistics to back anything up.

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Helm has effort and energy beyond that of Filppula - that does not mean he belongs on the second line - and I do not see anyone questioning Hudler's effort and energy this year.

I would want to see Hudler on that 2nd line, because paired with Franzen and Hossa, he is going to create a lot more opportunities for them, plus he is better equiped to bury more passes than Filppula would. With two responsible two-way players on that line already (Hossa and Franzen), I do not put as high of a premium on Filppula's defensive play. IE. that line is already defensively responsible, but we want them to be as dangerous as possible offensively as well - Hudler gives you that in spades over Filppula.

While Helm and Flip both provide relatively equal levels of energy and I'd rather have them both up as I feel the Wings are better off with them here than in GR, they both play around the same even strength but Flip gets, especially of late, significantly more special teams (PP/PK) time than Helm does. Since I am not the coach, nor do I have a better view point than the coach, I really cannot argue with that. If Flip wasn't useful, or even less useful than Helm, he wouldn't be playing in almost every situation, while Helm's special teams play is extremely limited. However, if Flip can contribute while on any line, and the coaching staff sees their way to making a successful line the way Hossa's line has been of late, even if it means putting him on the 2nd line, I don't see the problem.

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Its about the little plays that make him one of the most skilled guys on this team, chipping the puck back to defensmen... back checking, postioning, poise, patience, small plays that go unnoticed that makes players like val so under-rated. The list goes on.. those of you who know real hockey know what im talking about.

And i predict valterri filppula will be in the 2010-2011 all star game wearing a wings jersey. If not sooner then in later years, but this guy is the future franchise datsyuk or zetterberg of this team, along with hudler. Its to bad some of you don't see val's potential, but holland, babcock, and the rest of the organization do see it, and thats all that matters.. sorry hes not going anywhere kids..

Well said. It's my firm belief that Flip is THE BEST at holding onto the puck while moving around in the zone. I see no one do it better.

Also please keep in mind that since he's played on the second line, he has 10 points in the last 11 games. That matches Hudler (who gets way more PP time) and is one over Franzen (again, with much more PP time).

Edited by Z and D for the C

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Well said. It's my firm belief that Flip is THE BEST at holding onto the puck while moving around in the zone. I see no one do it better.

Also please keep in mind that since he's played on the second line, he has 10 points in the last 11 games. That matches Hudler (who gets way more PP time) and is one over Franzen (again, with much more PP time).

Yeah man! Hudler's on pace for 70pts- just imagine what Filppula could do with all that ice time they recklessly throw at Hudler!

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Well said. It's my firm belief that Flip is THE BEST at holding onto the puck while moving around in the zone. I see no one do it better.

Also please keep in mind that since he's played on the second line, he has 10 points in the last 11 games. That matches Hudler (who gets way more PP time) and is one over Franzen (again, with much more PP time).

Are you including everyone on the team? Because there are about half a dozen better than Fil at hanging on to the puck be it in traffic, open ice, along the boards, or otherwise.

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Are you including everyone on the team? Because there are about half a dozen better than Fil at hanging on to the puck be it in traffic, open ice, along the boards, or otherwise.

Seconded. You do realize Pavel Datsyuk is on this team, right?

As for Fil, I really think he is pretty expendable. I would much rather have Franzen than Filppula. I don't think he's a bad player but I just think that we have enough players in our system that are relatively soft and aren't exactly bonafide scorers. Along with that, I think we could get some decent return on him as well, unlike Franzen who would just walk in Free Agency.

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If Filp would have second PP duty through the whole year he'd have around an extra 20 points which would put his season total points around 50 right now and he'd finish with around 60. So keep that in mind for next year when he puts up 60-70 points so you don't say "About time he stepped up" ;)

Plus he played very very good last year in the playoffs with a sprained knee or whatever. This year he'll tear it up even more in the playoffs with his full health and with his great Faceoff abilities, maybe that'll give the Red Wing brass the option of sitting Draper for Leino and not feel bad about it.

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Haha, made me laugh, but sadly its true about most of the people here.

I have no intention to argue with any of you "red wing" experts, but any of you saying filpulla is under acheiving this season pretty much is just a one demensional hockey expert, or to make it simple, a "berry melrose"..

Theres a reason why babcock gives val the ice time he gets, and theres a reason why holland gives him the kind of money he gets. If you look into it, stats are misleading when it comes to this guy, and anyone who watches red wing games knows what im talking about.

Its about the little plays that make him one of the most skilled guys on this team, chipping the puck back to defensmen... back checking, postioning, poise, patience, small plays that go unnoticed that makes players like val so under-rated. The list goes on.. those of you who know real hockey know what im talking about. Only datsyuk makes these little plays better that filppula

And i predict valterri filppula will be in the 2010-2011 all star game wearing a wings jersey. If not sooner then in later years, but this guy is the future franchise datsyuk or zetterberg of this team, along with hudler. Its to bad some of you don't see val's potential, but holland, babcock, and the rest of the organization do see it, and thats all that matters.. sorry hes not going anywhere kids..

It's one thing to say you don't like Barry Melrose (which a lot of people both here and in general don't) but for you, a virtual know nothing to call Barry Melrose "simple" in regards to his hockey knowledge is really quite gaudy.

Then again in your little make believe world I am sure you most likely believe that you and your collection of Red Wing DVD's purchased off Amazon know more then a guy who played in 300 NHL games, countless AHL games, won both a Memorial Cup championship and Calder Cup while a head coach in juniors only to then jump to the NHL and lead a team to the Stanley Cup finals followed by years of commentary with ESPN - America's #1 sporting news channel.

Sadly though, you don't know more then him, hell - I would be willing to bet you don't comprehend as much as 95% of the people on this message board. But ya know, whatever floats your boat.

It always seems to be guys like you who downplay, disregard, and even go as far as mock the use of those pesky little things called "statistics". You buy in, and perpetuate the notion that the jerks who use stats simply "type in Google blah blah blah", etc., etc., etc.

It strikes me as odd that if using stats to prove an argument is so easy -- or at least as easy as simpletons such as yourself claim it to be -- then why doesn't your brand of "expert" (you know, the real expert, not the Barry "1 Dimensional Expert" Melrose") ever use stats to back your ridiculous and at times, benevolent claims and/or statements?

Of course statistics are not the end all be all of anything or argument -- there are too many outside factors in almost any situation, this one included, to solely base this or that on a number. You could never, at least in the context of debating a sports team base a decision on a stat, or a grouping of stats, they are simply to pliable to do so. But they do shine light on whatever it is being looked at and to deny this is just plain ignorant.

When you look at those who argue against evolution in lieu of their theory -- that being God created all we know in seven days and seven nights -- they too love using the whole "those silly people and their pointless statistics are wrong and we know the real truth" methodology of debate. Well, It goes without saying that those people, and this is something I hope we can all agree on, are not exactly the most "convincing" folks in the world, and their anti-statistics jargon is well -- an attempt to back a theory that is quite frankly -- moronic.

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It's one thing to say you don't like Barry Melrose (which a lot of people both here and in general don't) but for you, a virtual know nothing to call Barry Melrose "simple" in regards to his hockey knowledge is really quite gaudy.

You are always so quick to argue and get a zinger in on another poster that you don't take the time to read or comprehend anyone else's posts. Tommingthepuck96 didn't call Melrose "simple" - read his post he was saying that some people are one dimensional hockey experts - and rather than use that long term to make it "simple" he abbreviated the term one dimensional hockey expert as Barry Melrose. It's kind of like the NHL is actually the National Hockey League but to make it "simple" it is usually referred to as the NHL. No one is calling the NHL simple but merely stating that NHL is a much more "simple" way of referring to the National Hockey League.

Now you still may not like him calling Melrose a one dimensional hockey expert (I actually would agree with you there, I'm not a Melrose fan but the guy is very knowledgeable - just very biased as well) but at least know what you are talking about before you jump all over someone. You did that to me last week when you made up lies about me stating:

Please stop inserting "straw men/man" in every other post you make. I am beginning to think you have no clue what a straw man argument really is (quick, look it up and respond by copying and pasting).

Then when I called you out on it (asking you to find some where other than the present conversation that I had ever accused someone of setting up a straw man) you refused to respond because you knew it was crap, you made it up, and couldn't back it up. You're always such a jerk to people - how about you at least know what you're talking about (and quit making stuff up and lying about what other people) if you want to argue the ACTUAL points or statements that people make, great quit making stuff up and attributing it to other posters.

edit: clarify

Edited by Frozen-Man

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I would be willing to bet you don't comprehend as much as 95% of the people on this message board. But ya know, whatever floats your boat.

Make a conslusion like that just because someone might disagree with you about a player? Yeah. That's legit.

No one is saying throw statistics out the window, but it's not the end all be all like some people would have you believe.

But if you want to have fun with stats, right now, it takes Flip 27.6 ES minutes to get 1 ES point, and it takes Hudler 28.2. Omg trade Hudler!

Edited by Z and D for the C

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Make a conslusion like that just because someone might disagree with you about a player? Yeah. That's legit.

No one is saying throw statistics out the window, but it's not the end all be all like some people would have you believe.

But if you want to have fun with stats, right now, it takes Flip 27.6 ES minutes to get 1 ES point, and it takes Hudler 28.2. Omg trade Hudler!

Wrong again -- the conclusion was made on the following: a) your statement in which you claim "Only datsyuk makes these little plays better that filppula", which is flat out untrue, b) your statement "But if you want to have fun with stats, right now, it takes Flip 27.6 ES minutes to get 1 ES point, and it takes Hudler 28.2. Omg trade Hudler!" which is absolutely has no impact whatsoever on this argument seeing as though Hudler is currently making 1.015M a year and Flip 3M as well as the fact the game of hockey is not exclusive to ES play. To use this as the staple of your argument is ludacris - it's the intelectual equivalent of arguing Conklin is the best goalie based on his 14-1 record at home. This would be a good argument if every signle game was played at home, but they aren't, the same as hockey is not always played at ES.

So my claim that you are a know nothing and 95% of the people on this board know more then you is a conclusion based on a hell of a lot more then a disagreement. I have disagreements with people on here often, and I would still say half of them know much more then me in regards to all facets of the game-- no, the conclusion I made is based on statements you have made that signal your ignorance towards hockey and more specifically the Red Wings.

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Wrong again -- the conclusion was made on the following: a) your statement in which you claim "Only datsyuk makes these little plays better that filppula", which is flat out untrue, b) your statement "But if you want to have fun with stats, right now, it takes Flip 27.6 ES minutes to get 1 ES point, and it takes Hudler 28.2. Omg trade Hudler!" which is absolutely has no impact whatsoever on this argument seeing as though Hudler is currently making 1.015M a year and Flip 3M as well as the fact the game of hockey is not exclusive to ES play. To use this as the staple of your argument is ludacris - it's the intelectual equivalent of arguing Conklin is the best goalie based on his 14-1 record at home. This would be a good argument if every signle game was played at home, but they aren't, the same as hockey is not always played at ES.

So my claim that you are a know nothing and 95% of the people on this board know more then you is a conclusion based on a hell of a lot more then a disagreement. I have disagreements with people on here often, and I would still say half of them know much more then me in regards to all facets of the game-- no, the conclusion I made is based on statements you have made that signal your ignorance towards hockey and more specifically the Red Wings.

Well first off, your mixing multiple people's posts. tommingthepuck96 said that about the little plays. Not that I completely disagree with him, though saying only datsyuk makes them better may be a bit of a stretch, but he is up there. (Note saying only datsyuk makes them better doesn't mean flip is better than anyone else).

Next, try reading more thoroughly. I only even bring up that "stat" because other people have earlier and now it has flipped on them. I find that amusing which is why I said it. If you read, you'd have known this. Also, (this something that requires more reading, so maybe I should excuse you for your ignorance) the argument over ES points is because you can't compare all points as Filppula doesn't play on the PP. Hudler does. And seeing that goals are easier to come by on the PP (anyone disagree with that?), when comparing Hudler's and Filppula's stats, the difference must be taken out. Read: normalization. That said, your analogy sucks and doesn't apply at all. It doesn't even come close.

It's also absolutely hysterical that you said I used it as a STAPLE of my argument. Somehow thinking it's a staple of my argument because I mentioned it by-the-way is ludicrous. Talk about straw man arguments.

FURTHERMORE, your conclusion was made before I said what you claimed your conclusion was based of off! How does that work? Can you tell the future? So in lieu of this and that fact that the little plays thing is not an objective fact I have no doubts in saying that I am in fact, completely correct about what I said about your conclusions and how/why you make them.

In an ending note if your only posts in my thread are discussing the validity of your insults and your unable to discuss the topic at hand, free free to not come back. I'd be more than happy to take it to PM though as this is so easy it's fun.

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I just wanted to bump this delightful thread with the news that with last nights assist, Flip has surpassed his career high in points from last season. He now has 37 points in 69 games.

So much for the regression theory ;)

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