Lidstrom is Hurting

[norrisnick 1]

For the record... I'm not a liar. As a Red Wing fan, I fully appreciate a staunch supporter of any Wing..

Disingenuous... liar. Same difference.

[Broken 16 381]

Can you at least point to something, anything, tangible out on the ice that would suggest to you that he's not 100%? He's pokechecking, shooting, passing. Most of the rest of the defensive roster has been a giant sieve, but Nick has been fine barring an uncharacteristically low performing November. Put his November on par with the rest of his season and he's on pace for a 65 point season and +50-something. Obviously in decline...

So the question stands, if you're worried about Nik why is it Nick that is hurting?

First off... I never said Nick was in decline. Those are your words.

Secondly, seeing Nick at less than 100% reminds me that he is human and how fragile our defense is without him. This thread isn't about how Nick is a liability on defense all the sudden... so put away the weapons.

I just think the defense could be our heel in the playoffs (not because of Nick... take a breath). I wouldn't be suprised if Holland wasn't thinking about possibly making a move for a decent upgrade on D somewhere.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Broken 16

[norrisnick 1]

First off... I never said Nick was in decline. Those are your words.

How does one play at less than 100% (as you state in the very next sentence and througout the thread) if you don't decline?

Secondly, seeing Nick at less than 100% reminds me that he is human and how fragile our defense is without him. This thread isn't about how Nick is a liability on defense all the sudden... so put away the weapons.

Who said anything about being a liability? (I love this game).

I just think the defense could be our heel in the playoffs (not because of Nick... take a breath).

Yet you can't help yourself in tying the two together. Funny that.

I wouldn't be suprised if Holland wasn't thinking about possibly making a move for a decent upgrade on D somewhere.

I'd be exceedingly pleased if he managed to unload Rafalski for someone that can play defense. And depending on who it is, I might be as well if Kronwall gets moved. That said it would shock the hell out of me. That isn't Kenny's style.

[Broken 16 381]

How does one play at less than 100% (as you state in the very next sentence and througout the thread) if you don't decline?

You could have a bad elbow and not be 100% perhaps? Lol...

Who said anything about being a liability? (I love this game).

Just a pre-emptive reassurance from me to you.

Yet you can't help yourself in tying the two together. Funny that.

You come off as personally hurt by this on many levels... which is, frankly, kinda strange.

I'd be exceedingly pleased if he managed to unload Rafalski for someone that can play defense. And depending on who it is, I might be as well if Kronwall gets moved. That said it would shock the hell out of me. That isn't Kenny's style.

Rafalski is too good at moving and controlling the puck. He's not going anywhere. He wasn't brought here to be a defensive defensmen.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Broken 16

[norrisnick 1]

You could have a bad elbow and not be 100% perhaps? Lol...

Unless he's above 100% you have to decline in order not to be 100%. Which is it?

Just a pre-emptive reassurance from me to you.

Consider me reassured.

You come off as personally hurt by this on many levels... which is, frankly, kinda strange.

Personally hurt? Not at all. You seem the one that doesn't like me poking holes in your "analysis."

Rafalski is too good at moving and controlling the puck. He's not going anywhere. He wasn't brought here to be a defensive defensmen.

If it's one thing Raf does, it's create offense. For both teams. $6M is way too much for a defenseman that can't defend.

[Broken 16 381]

Last year Detroit Red Wings went on a longer losing streak in February (mostly due to injuries) and people didn't make this many PANIC threads. But after we win the cup, we lose a few games and the world is suddenly coming to an end

What's going on with all the fair weathered Red Wing Fans this year? Will people kill themselves in the masses if Wings don't defend and retain Lord Stanely this year? God, I hope not! Life will go on....

STOP! Step away from that Kool-Aid!

The Wings just came off a pretty chunky winning streak, you pinhead. This is not a panic thread in any way. It's simply an attempt at discussing the state of the Wings defense. You must be part of the "Everything is Grand" contingent. There is always room for improvement. With the obvious glut of talent up front, I don't see why an upgrade on the back end is so far out of the question.

[Copenhagen848 58]

Nick appears a little off to me as well, whether it be his elbow or age catching up with him, or a combo of both. Don't bother trying to argue norrisnick, it's just my personal observation and you apparently have issues coming to terms with the fact that Lids can't be a super human forever, lol.

[Broken 16 381]

Unless he's above 100% you have to decline in order not to be 100%. Which is it?

Huh? That makes absolutely NO sense. Try again please.

Consider me reassured.

Consider me indifferent.

Personally hurt? Not at all. You seem the one that doesn't like me poking holes in your "analysis."

If the first quote above is an example of you poking holes in my analysis... you might want to head back to the drawing board.

If it's one thing Raf does, it's create offense. For both teams. $6M is way too much for a defenseman that can't defend.

I'd like to see him traded too. I've never been a huge Rafalski fan. I just suspect that the Wings like his game too much to trade him before the playoffs. I would love to be wrong.

[norrisnick 1]

Nick appears a little off to me as well, whether it be his elbow or age catching up with him, or a combo of both. Don't bother trying to argue norrisnick, it's just my personal observation and you apparently have issues coming to terms with the fact that Lids can't be a super human forever, lol.

No argument, just a personal observation.

I think analysts and posters have been falling all over themselves all season long trying to declare the end of Lidstrom's stranglehold on the Norris and defensive position. He had an inauspicious November which coincided with Weber being a PPG player through the first 20-ish games and it became "clear" that Shea was the top dog and Lidstrom had declined. Then Boyle took over the scoring lead for a while. Then the Bruins had a mindboggling stretch where half the team lead the league in +/- so Wideman and Chara were the elite. Now it's Green's turn to be the "front runner".

Throughout all of that Nick has been right there. All season long (with the exception of November) he's been the most consistent defenseman, but even that off month is less time being slighly below elite than anyone else. Since November he has 24 points and a +19 in 30 games. That IS his Norris pace. That pace has won him 6 Norris trophies.

People have latched on to that November and are desperate to find mistakes so their analysis of Nick not deserving the Norris remains true. The problem is that even if he's making more mistakes than he made earlier in his career, he's still making far less than anyone else out there. Nick is in decline. He's not as perfect as he was pre-lockout. But as I've posted elsewhere, why does Nick have to continuously lap the field in order to be seen as the best? The hockey world is desperate to annoint a less boring defenseman as the king of the blueline. I say good luck!

[norrisnick 1]

Huh? That makes absolutely NO sense. Try again please.

If you aren't 100% you're moving one way or the other. Either you go to the proverbial 110% or you go below 100%. Another word for going below 100% (or whatever starting point) is to decline. You may have not used the word decline, but when you state that a player is playing below usual standards you have to decline to get there. Make sense yet?

Consider me indifferent.

Consider me bemused.

If the first quote above is an example of you poking holes in my analysis... you might want to head back to the drawing board.

No, I'm merely countering your denial of stating that Lidstrom is in or has declined. The poking holes comes from noting that Lidstrom is playing at a level that has put him at the top of the league. He's dominant and people seem unwilling to notice.

I'd like to see him traded too. I've never been a huge Rafalski fan. I just suspect that the Wings like his game too much to trade him before the playoffs. I would love to be wrong.

The hometown boy/NTC is a killer in this situation. Why couldn't he have been from Boise?

[Z and D for the C 712]

The only reason I mention Kronwall is because his physical game has all but disappeared and he has trade value. I find it alarming that I've watched almost every single Wings game this season and I can honestly say that I can't remember a single bone-crushing open ice hit from him. I'm sure there have been some, but nothing sticks out... at all.

It's not like he had any in the regular season last season. He'll start his physical paly in the playoffs, don't worry. That's when Kronner and Stuart will shine, when it matters.

[Wingsallwin 0]

Last year Detroit Red Wings went on a longer losing streak in February (mostly due to injuries) and people didn't make this many PANIC threads. But after we win the cup, we lose a few games and the world is suddenly coming to an end

What's going on with all the fair weathered Red Wing Fans this year? Will people kill themselves in the masses if Wings don't defend and retain Lord Stanely this year? God, I hope not! Life will go on....

STOP! Step away from that Kool-Aid!

Well it is a not a panic thread. It is just a discussion about our future defenses and other parts. Nick will be able to face injuries more often because he is getting older and that is what people are worrying about. Besides, so far this season, even though Nick is not playing best hockey, I never thought he is not great. He made some mistakes but he is still one of the best in the league.

Yeah Mike Green is having more points than Nick right now but I don't why people rely on points too much when they distinguish which defense is better. Of course points are very important but that is not all. The league surely knows it is harder to produce more points in the West than the East.

I don't know why people only talk about points when they compare different players. If Nick was in the Eastern team, he would make a lot of point but the Wings are in the West, which is way harder than the East.

Besides, if Nick wins another Norris this year. yeah that is good. But if Nick does not win Norris this year, but if he can bring this team well into the playoff and defend the cup, who cares. Nick is still the best defense in the league by my personal thinking.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Wingsallwin

[Broken 16 381]

If you aren't 100% you're moving one way or the other. Either you go to the proverbial 110% or you go below 100%. Another word for going below 100% (or whatever starting point) is to decline. You may have not used the word decline, but when you state that a player is playing below usual standards you have to decline to get there. Make sense yet?

This is just stupid. A feeble attempt from you. There is no such thing as '110%'. If you are perfectly healthy, you are 100%. If you have an injury, you are somewhere below 100%... depending on the severity of your injury. Saying a player is below 100% is strictly based on injury. Lebda is 100% (as far as we know) and he still sucks compared to Nick.

Consider me bemused.

Consider me completely unimpressed.

No, I'm merely countering your denial of stating that Lidstrom is in or has declined. The poking holes comes from noting that Lidstrom is playing at a level that has put him at the top of the league. He's dominant and people seem unwilling to notice.

HE'S ******* HURT!!! Good lord... get of the decline subject already. I never said that, you keep trying to put those words in my mouth and I never said that. Let it go already. He's hurting a little. We all know this. Accept it already. Cripes.

The hometown boy/NTC is a killer in this situation. Why couldn't he have been from Boise?

The Wings have bigger fish to fry.

[dicksmack 33]

Last summer, Lidstrom's own President (and the guy who drafted Lidstrom) said that he doesn't have Lidstrom in his top 20 and that Denis Potvin was the best defenceman he ever drafted.

Is this supposed to mean something? It's one person's dissenting opinion in an overwhelming consensus that Lidstrom is in the top 5 all-time...

[LIDSTROM-YZERMAN4PRESIDENT 0]

Liddy still has at least one quality year in him. I would love to see Ericsson up in the pro's. For right now Liddy is still the man at the center of the team on and off the ice. He is still getting a good 25 mins a game I think he is gonna be fine

[dicksmack 33]

What's apparent and different this year is that Lidstrom is not the best player on his team. The whole league has been talking about how the Wings defence has been suspect and at times brutal. Sure the goaltending (esp. Ozzie ) has been s***e at times but it's the first time I can remember the Wings being famous for sucky D in a long time. How can the leader of this crew be considered the best in the game? Personally, I think Lidstrom has another Norris in him but not this year.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

If Lidstrom is hurting, he sure isn't showing it much. Looks fine to me.

[Winged_Wheeler 3]

It seems pretty obvious to me. He's still playing incredible hockey, but he seems a lot more tentative than he usually is. Not many discussions going on about the D situation with all the forwards bieng negotiated with, but I think there are a couple issues. I'm not in any way, shape or form advocating the trade of Lidstrom. But seeing him hindered reminds me how fragile our defense is without him.

I've gone through the season so far assuming that there was a lack of focus because most nights the Red Wings defensive game is far from stellar. I think the D needs new blood. I predict Holland will ship someone off the roster and bring in a suprising name.

I have always wondered about Lidstrom this year, he isn't playing his best hockey. Do you notice teams dump the puck in on Lidstrom's side now? They know that he's not likely to win the battle in the corner. And when he does he throws the puck up the boards which results in a forward or defense men on the other team regaining procession.

[joshy207 156]

Yeah, it's not as if Lidstrom sucks this year, but there are subtle little things you can notice about his play. He's just not quite as sharp. It's probably just the elbow. He also didn't look "himself" last year when he was trying to play through an injury. It would be nice if the Wings' schedule wasn't so jam-packed the rest of the year, so he could find a week or so to shut it down and rest the elbow, but they only have 3 straight days off just twice more this season. Lots of back-to-back games and stretches of one or two days off. If he is going to rest up, he'll have to miss a few games at least. But, if rest is going to help, that might be better than trying to play through more pain in the playoffs.

[redwings604 0]

some people on here are such morons, oh lets just trade half our defense that will solve everything. Only won the cup last year and have the best management team in the NHL , but they dont know what they are doing

[Wingaling 0]

I disagree on that...I think that shipping out Kronwall is a bad idea altogther. We'd be better off trying to find a way to get Jonathan Ericsson healthy and up in the NHL, rather than moving a solid D-man like Kronner. I'd hate to see him go...

If I traded any of our D-men, it would be Lebda, but sadly, he doesn't carry any trade value. We'd more than likely be forced to deal a forward in order to shore up the D. My choice would be Filppula and Lebda packaged for a D-man, and maybe a draft pick, if that could be done. Not sure if that will happen, or who we realistically could get, considering the Wings' team salary, but I'd be interested to see what might happen at the deadline.

I'll freakin pack Kron"balls" bags for him...I say trade that lemon, he put a few hits on every now and then, he gets assits but who wouldnt with these guys in front of him. He makes soooo many dumb mistakes on the ice that result in goals against that he makes me mad on a nightly basis. I also think with lids dying down we should model the D around Stuart, hes a strong defensive player who see's the ice well, has a great shot, and smash's people on a regular basis.

[Broken 16 381]

some people on here are such morons, oh lets just trade half our defense that will solve everything. Only won the cup last year and have the best management team in the NHL , but they dont know what they are doing

Who said anything about trading half of the D? Quick answer... nobody.

I, personally, would consider Kronwall the most valuable of the D that we can part with. Stuart isn't going anywhere with his NTC. Rafalski isn't going anywhere either. Lebda doesn't carry much value. Chelios has little trade value. Meech hasn't earned much value yet.

The more I think about it... I wouldn't be upset to see a package deal with a forward or two to pick up a solid defensmen.

I'm not saying that this is something that they HAVE TO DO. I just think something suprising is going to happen at the deadline. I have a feeling a mid-range defensmen will be joining the ranks. Its called a prediction. Despite what you think, I'm entitled to my opinion and my prediction.

[lets go pavel 2]

Who said anything about trading half of the D? Quick answer... nobody.

I, personally, would consider Kronwall the most valuable of the D that we can part with. Stuart isn't going anywhere with his NTC. Rafalski isn't going anywhere either. Lebda doesn't carry much value. Chelios has little trade value. Meech hasn't earned much value yet.

The more I think about it... I wouldn't be upset to see a package deal with a forward or two to pick up a solid defensmen.

I'm not saying that this is something that they HAVE TO DO. I just think something suprising is going to happen at the deadline. I have a feeling a mid-range defensmen will be joining the ranks. Its called a prediction. Despite what you think, I'm entitled to my opinion and my prediction.

Kronwall IS a solid defenseman. You want to package him with a forward or two and trade them for ... who? He's not having his best season ever, but no one on the defense is. We can't afford another $6M defenseman, and for his price range we're not going to find anyone better.

[Broken 16 381]

Kronwall IS a solid defenseman. You want to package him with a forward or two and trade them for ... who? He's not having his best season ever, but no one on the defense is. We can't afford another $6M defenseman, and for his price range we're not going to find anyone better.

I said "mid-range" defensemen. Care to name a mid-range defensemen making 6 million a year that the Wings would be interested in. I love how people on this board just LOVE to put words in other peoples mouths in order to create a debate.

The undying devotion some of you show to certain members of the Red Wings is amusing to say the least.

[lets go pavel 2]

I said "mid-range" defensemen. Care to name a mid-range defensemen making 6 million a year that the Wings would be interested in. I love how people on this board just LOVE to put words in other peoples mouths in order to create a debate.

The undying devotion some of you show to certain members of the Red Wings is amusing to say the least.

I know, Broken 16, but why the hell would we package Kronwall with one or two forwards and trade them for a "mid-range" defenseman? Again, Kronner IS a "mid-range" defenseman. Who do you want that would be such an upgrade over Kronner that we would have to throw in a forward or two? My point was that if you want to make that trade, packaging Kronner AND forwards for one defenseman in return, the guy better be a top pairing defenseman, and that means in the $6M range. Otherwise you're just giving away players.

And no, I'm not devoted to Kronner at all, but for the price I'm not sure who you think would be an upgrade.