Kenny, Get an Enforcer Now!

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I agree with you on this and that is why I see no need for an enforcer or goon.... not the way the game is played today.

Plus, we don't need anything except for some of the guys on our current roster to grow pair and finish the odd check with some authority and shove a guy out of their face when he is nose to nose with them, and occasionally hold their stick with 2 hands and deliver it to the lower back of guys camped out in front of the net (like homer receives constantly). If a few more of our players would play with just a little more bite in their game it would make a nice difference without having to add anyone else.

Every team in the league has that goon that you speak of.

Does anybody on this thread even watch hockey, or do you guys just watch the Wings? You do know that fighting is up this year, right? Enforcers are still around also, even after this "new NHL" crap that everyone speaks of.

I seriously doubt it, dude:

Dan Cleary - has a lot of heart, and recently held his own against that prick Pronger even though hopelessly outreached and weighed

Johan Franzen - an interesting idea - he's such a big brute, but of the two fights he's been in, his opponent won hands down

Marrian Hossa - recent evidence of his fighting ability suggests, no

Thomas Holmstrom - Homer has a very specific job he is really good at, I don't want him fighting. He takes enough of a beating as it is around the net (and around the crotch some nights)

Thomas Kopecky - hits well, but has one fight in the NHL and didn't do well; see Sharp

Mikael Samuelsson - can't fight, just pisses people off

Andreas Lilja - can hit but can't fight; see his Moen and Sharp "fights"

Brad stewart - beat down by Ruutu, has showed reluctance to fight in his past skirmishes

Val Filpula - what, are you kidding?

Kirk Maltby - great instigator, hasn't won a fight since our 90s cup days; tends to turtle these days

Chris chelios - might break a hip

I would like to enter into evidence, however, the following:

WORST POST IN THE HISTORY OF LGW BECAUSE OF THE BOLDED PART

You're lucky I'm not a mod, or else you'd be gone for that. Your name doesn't happen to be Stevie Wonder by any chance? Have you even seen his fights, especially the Sharp fight? I suppose Souray kicked Lilja's ass also? Unbeilivable.

[DMAC 25 18]

even just bringing downey up and putting him on the 4th line would be nice. i agree 100% though it shouldnt be hossas job why wont they do anything about it because they've learned before in the playoffs that ur going to need an enforcer

[cnot19 191]

RW players are not afraid of other teams and therefore do not feel they need to "send messages".

and since they( RW players) do not care what others are thinking of them, it is futile to "send messages" to RW players too.

LOL LOL I am pretty sure Hudler recieved a message when he had his face slammed into the boards form behind then had steve sullivan get in his face after the play. Lidstrom certainly got the message from Lappy last year. Hossa clearly got the message and decided to send out his own. Your statement is moronic they are human beings not robots. There are definetly some guys on the current team that could fight or toughen up a bit as mentioned by other posters. However I would rather see them bring in a Neil/WInchester type (who has an incredible wrist shot.) and hope he has some influence on the team similar to Downey Drake last year

[Ms_Hockey 0]

What rules are you speaking of?

Mostly the instigation rule. I'm not sure what other ones are going to be thought up afterwards. It's just ways of punishing players for getting into a fight. Bettman doesn't want to take fighting out of the game - but he certainly is trying to discourage it every way he can.

The NHL is changing - thanks to his no-good "leadership". I'd be curious to see if there was a need for an enforcer in about 5 years.

[Guest micah]

Mostly the instigation rule. I'm not sure what other ones are going to be thought up afterwards. It's just ways of punishing players for getting into a fight. Bettman doesn't want to take fighting out of the game - but he certainly is trying to discourage it every way he can.

The NHL is changing - thanks to his no-good "leadership". I'd be curious to see if there was a need for an enforcer in about 5 years.

What instigation rule? The one that's almost as old as you are or is there something new in the works?

[Ms_Hockey 0]

What instigation rule? The one that's almost as old as you are or is there something new in the works?

Bettman has said, on more than one occassion, that he wants to look into fighting because it's a "safety" issue. He maintains that it's a part of the game - but he wants to make it safer to engage in. Whatever that means...

[hokike 1]

LOL LOL I am pretty sure Hudler recieved a message when he had his face slammed into the boards form behind then had steve sullivan get in his face after the play. Lidstrom certainly got the message from Lappy last year. Hossa clearly got the message and decided to send out his own. Your statement is moronic they are human beings not robots. There are definetly some guys on the current team that could fight or toughen up a bit as mentioned by other posters. However I would rather see them bring in a Neil/WInchester type (who has an incredible wrist shot.) and hope he has some influence on the team similar to Downey Drake last year

Lidström has seen in his long career various injury causes - mostly on other guys,I'm pretty sure that one "illegal" hit did notshake his confidence. He has probably already forgotten this incident. focus on more important things.

The same with Hudler.

It is typical fan mistake to higlight one scene and based on this scene to analyze the "whole" thing.

If they win or lose cup, then not because of enforcer.

Comparably with goalie and focus ( do they "flip switch" when POs begin?) issues, is "enforcer" for me very minor problem.

Edited February 20, 2009 by hokike

[Carman 387]

I want Neil, not because you need an enforcer to win games. But because it's exciting, and helps revenue and fan interest. Also he would be significantly better then any 4th liner on the squad currently. No doubt the wings can win the cup either way, I just feel that we could be more "exciting" team for some fans out there.

[cnot19 191]

Lidström has seen in his long career various injury causes - mostly on other guys,I'm pretty sure that one "illegal" hit did notshake his confidence. He has probably already forgotten this incident. focus on more important things.

The same with Hudler.

It is typical fan mistake to higlight one scene and based on this scene to analyze the "whole" thing.

If they win or lose cup, then not because of enforcer.

Comparably with goalie and focus ( do they "flip switch" when POs begin?) issues, is "enforcer" for me very minor problem.

Im highlighting multiple occurences of these messages being sent and recieved do you want me to bring one out for every game?. Why does Sammuelson always talk after hes been jabbed and what not? Its because hes sending the message hes not gonna be pushed around. Wether he decides to fight is another issue. I agree that an enforcer is a minor issue, however team toughness is not. Do the wings have the same team toughness as last year? IMO no.

[Doc Holiday 0]

We don't need an enforcer to be successful.

We don't need to be without an enforcer to be successful either.

I'd love and enforcer on the team, because they are exciting to watch, but I'm not going to freak out every game they don't dress one. It is a business and Detroit is doing just fine with what they are doing.

[hokike 1]

Im highlighting multiple occurences of these messages being sent and recieved do you want me to bring one out for every game?. Why does Sammuelson always talk after hes been jabbed and what not? Its because hes sending the message hes not gonna be pushed around. Wether he decides to fight is another issue. I agree that an enforcer is a minor issue, however team toughness is not. Do the wings have the same team toughness as last year? IMO no.

Good that we agreed on something.

One enforcer do not rise toughness lever if he is not capable of playing more than 4 min per game ( read: is not able to offer more than fists).

They are not "tough" not because of lack of enforcers but because of regular season has become pretty dull for them.

And one minor role palayer surely is not capable of making reg season more "interesting" for bored vets via fights.

Vets are pros and thos pros know pretty well that fights in hockey are mostly "shows".

[Guest micah]

Vets are pros and thos pros know pretty well that fights in hockey are mostly "shows".

Aww, it's cute the way you presume to know more about what players think about enforcers than what they say about enforcers. I bet I can find more examples of Wings saying how much they appreciate tough guys than you can of them saying how unnesecarry enforcers are.

[Dawgs 0]

Im not gonna read 6 pages of the same mindless argument thats been goin on for several years here. I do want to say tho that even if an enforcer were in the lineup that night he wouldnt have been on the ice with Hudler and Hossa. Unless said enforcer jumper over the boards that line was on its own.

[esteef 2,679]

Im not gonna read 6 pages of the same mindless argument thats been goin on for several years here. I do want to say tho that even if an enforcer were in the lineup that night he wouldnt have been on the ice with Hudler and Hossa. Unless said enforcer jumper over the boards that line was on its own.

Then how do you expect to get the new and exciting versions of the same argument?!!

esteef

[skacore 2]

[RedSea 31]

Im not gonna read 6 pages of the same mindless argument thats been goin on for several years here. I do want to say tho that even if an enforcer were in the lineup that night he wouldnt have been on the ice with Hudler and Hossa. Unless said enforcer jumper over the boards that line was on its own.

While you're most likely right, the next time Babs would've matched the enforcer line with the line that aggravated Hudler and company. It's a chess game that you take in turns and sometimes you've just gotta sacrifice a little time to get back at your opponent.

[sureWhyNot 19]

instigation rule. Headhunters will be gone.

http://www.nhl.com/rules/rule56.html

Goon does not not save Red Wings. Skilled goons cost too much and cheap goons a la Downey are useless.

Red Wings players do not care what other teams think of them and therefore do not feel that they need fight to prove their "handsomeness".

Described action is teenage level behavior and I'm glad that RW players act like adults not teens.

Ha ha, wow - I can tell you are a hockey aficionado already, and by aficianado I mean someone who is knows literally nothing about the topic he is opining on.

Now I will take you to school on a couple of things. First of all you claiming that the instigator, which was instituted in 05-06 is ultimately the beginning of the end for fighting in the NHL. Well, you are wrong -- I mean you are very, very wrong (surprise, surprise here):

TOTAL FM in the NHL By Season:

1997-98 - 838 fights

1998-99 - 660 fights

1999-00 - 573 fights

2000-01 - 684 fights

2001-02 - 803 fights

2002-03 - 668 fights

2003-04 - 789 fights

2004-05 - No season

2005-06 - 466 fights <----- INSTIGATOR RULE INTO EFFECT (or as Genius put it, the headhunter rule)

2006-07 - 497 fights

2007-08 - 664 fights

2008-09 - 784 fights (projected by using current FM totals which equals out to .64 fights a game)

Moreover, I wish people would stop saying "goons" this and "goons" that. How many times have I posted the numbers of these so called "goons" who have over 9-10 FM as well as more points then a handful of the guys dressing for the Wings. Stop with the "worthless goon" tag when referencing fighters because truth be told, they are better hockey players then a couple of the guys on our team that people like you, who are clueless, stick up for time after time.

Cliche's are not flattering bro, so please stop with them.

When individuals like yourself who know nothing more about hockey then the handful of playoff games and the you tube highlights reels you watch call players worthless it really gets under my skin. You then go into some incoherent dribble regarding "handsomeness" and acting like grown ups. I won't even get into this, I' will leave it by saying you really need to look into some of the things you post your personal opinions about -- it makes it easier on everyone, and less embarassing for yourself.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Mostly the instigation rule. I'm not sure what other ones are going to be thought up afterwards. It's just ways of punishing players for getting into a fight. Bettman doesn't want to take fighting out of the game - but he certainly is trying to discourage it every way he can.

The NHL is changing - thanks to his no-good "leadership". I'd be curious to see if there was a need for an enforcer in about 5 years.

Nope, I am sorry but you are 100% wrong. Fighting has rose steadily every year since the instigator rule was introduced. Sorry about that.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

The instigator wasn't introduced post-lockout... It's been around for a couple decades. There were a handful of rule changes with regards to fighting in 2006, namely instigating in the last five minutes of a game, but nothing major.

[uk_redwing 495]

Nope, I am sorry but you are 100% wrong. Fighting has rose steadily every year since the instigator rule was introduced. Sorry about that.

Also, the way the instigator rule is used has changed as well. You rarely see a 2+5+10 being handed out when a fight is instigated. Usually the instigator will get an extra 2 for roughing (see Davison v Downey last season). So not only are fights rising, but the refs are finding ways around the rule.

And so long as hitting is allowed in hockey, there will always be a need for enforcers. Whether its Donald Brashear or a strong powerplay. Just a Donald Brashear is a much more effective enforcer when your 6-2 up with 10 mins to go in the 3rd.

[Dawgs 0]

While you're most likely right, the next time Babs would've matched the enforcer line with the line that aggravated Hudler and company. It's a chess game that you take in turns and sometimes you've just gotta sacrifice a little time to get back at your opponent.

That only works if the offending player is also an enforcer. And he wasnt. Hes just a little guy. Downey drops the gloves roughs him up and takes penalties. Sheer genius.

[hokike 1]

Ha ha, wow - I can tell you are a hockey aficionado already, and by aficianado I mean someone who is knows literally nothing about the topic he is opining on.

Now I will take you to school on a couple of things. First of all you claiming that the instigator, which was instituted in 05-06 is ultimately the beginning of the end for fighting in the NHL. Well, you are wrong -- I mean you are very, very wrong (surprise, surprise here):

TOTAL FM in the NHL By Season:

1997-98 - 838 fights

1998-99 - 660 fights

1999-00 - 573 fights

2000-01 - 684 fights

2001-02 - 803 fights

2002-03 - 668 fights

2003-04 - 789 fights

2004-05 - No season

2005-06 - 466 fights <----- INSTIGATOR RULE INTO EFFECT (or as Genius put it, the headhunter rule)

2006-07 - 497 fights

2007-08 - 664 fights

2008-09 - 784 fights (projected by using current FM totals which equals out to .64 fights a game)

Moreover, I wish people would stop saying "goons" this and "goons" that. How many times have I posted the numbers of these so called "goons" who have over 9-10 FM as well as more points then a handful of the guys dressing for the Wings. Stop with the "worthless goon" tag when referencing fighters because truth be told, they are better hockey players then a couple of the guys on our team that people like you, who are clueless, stick up for time after time.

Cliche's are not flattering bro, so please stop with them.

When individuals like yourself who know nothing more about hockey then the handful of playoff games and the you tube highlights reels you watch call players worthless it really gets under my skin. You then go into some incoherent dribble regarding "handsomeness" and acting like grown ups. I won't even get into this, I' will leave it by saying you really need to look into some of the things you post your personal opinions about -- it makes it easier on everyone, and less embarassing for yourself.

1.What I meant was gone for game ( like Hossa had to leave to lockerroom after fight) not gone forever.

2. Aaron downey sits in AHL and most probably do not dress for Red Wings game in this season . He even before the season admitted openly that his actual playing skills need seriuos developement.

3. AND you are this one who determines who is worthy of Red Wings roster spot?

4. I'm not against of fighting but I'm against of position like "ship is sinking b/c no serius enforcres there" or "my life sucks, Joe Louis arena sucks, game sucks, I want to see some fight"

5. Ken Holland is not "antifighter", he has said (at least once) fighter yes but with skill and RIGHT pricetag. Now add salary cap issues too. consider this: for Holland's view fight has to be far more important before he is ready to sacrifice skill for fists.

6. Hockey is strong contact sport. If you can not tolerate "dirty" hits and nasty slashes, there are other sports too. Among of many things good athletes are taught to swallow provocations and other forms of "testing"

It is childish to shout after already mentioned hit to Hudler "revenge , revenge, oh why nobody sticks up for teammates!!!!Cowards!!!!" Both hitter and Hudler knew that it was nothing personal, that is a part of testing.

It has nothing to do with "pride" or something like that. It is a GAME, GAME, dude, A GAME. In real life, yes not sticking up toyour mates even after "minor fight" can be shameful, but we're talking about a GAME here.

For me it is more childish to conclude "why they do not fight, they have so soft hearts"

Strong is not this who reacts to every provocation strong is who chooses when fight when not.

If allowed to play to game like during seventies, ( I've seen some clips) then yes, bring me as many fighters as you can.

I'm 100% sure that it has been discussed in lockerroom where their "tolerance limits" are. Coaching staff has seen everything and I'm sure they have their tactic ready when opponent chooses to "play as dirty as possible".

Edited February 20, 2009 by hokike

[sureWhyNot 19]

The instigator wasn't introduced post-lockout... It's been around for a couple decades. There were a handful of rule changes with regards to fighting in 2006, namely instigating in the last five minutes of a game, but nothing major.

The instigator rule which he cited with a link to the NHL, and referred to as the prime entity weeding out "headhunters" was introduced in 05-06.

[sureWhyNot 19]

1.What I meant was gone for game ( like Hossa had to leave to lockerroom after fight) not gone forever.

2. Aaron downey sits in AHL and most probably do not dress for Red Wings game in this season . He even before the season admitted openly that his actual playing skills need seriuos developement.

3. AND you are this one who determines who is worthy of Red Wings roster spot?

4. I'm not against of fighting but I'm against of position like "ship is sinking b/c no serius enforcres there" or "my life sucks, Joe Louis arena sucks, game sucks, I want to see some fight"

5. Ken Holland is not "antifighter", he has said (at least once) fighter yes but with skill and RIGHT pricetag. Now add salary cap issues too. consider this: for Holland's view fight has to be far more important before he is ready to sacrifice skill for fists.

6. Hockey is strong contact sport. If you can not tolerate "dirty" hits and nasty slashes, there are other sports too. Among of many things good athletes are taught to swallow provocations and other forms of "testing"

It is childish to shout after already mentioned hit to Hudler "revenge , revenge, oh why nobody sticks up for teammates!!!!Cowards!!!!" Both hitter and Hudler knew that it was nothing personal, that is a part of testing.

It has nothing to do with "pride" or something like that. It is a GAME, GAME, dude, A GAME. In real life, yes not sticking up toyour mates even after "minor fight" can be shameful, but we're talking about a GAME here.

For me it is more childish to conclude "why they do not fight, they have so soft hearts"

Strong is not this who reacts to every provocation strong is who chooses when fight when not.

If allowed to play to game like during seventies, ( I've seen some clips) then yes, bring me as many fighters as you can.

I'm 100% sure that it has been discussed in lockerroom where their "tolerance limits" are. Coaching staff has seen everything and I'm sure they have their tactic ready when opponent chooses to "play as dirty as possible".

Ok, here we go.

1) Hossa was "gone from the game" because he didn't have his fighting strap tied, that is the only reason why he received the game MC.

2) You're right about Downey sitting in the AHL -- but what kinda bothers me is that he was going to go ahead and retire after he didn't make the Wings starting roster this year. However Holland and others talked him into staying with it. Now I find it hard to believe that in their convincing of him to stay with GR that the notion that he would see at least some time up with the big club didn't come into play. Now I don't know if it did for a fact, I am purely speculating (yes, I am not stating this as fact, that is the promise of time up with the RW -- Downey's readiness to hang them up however is fact).

3) You declare: "I'm not against of fighting but I'm against of position like "ship is sinking b/c no serius enforcres there" or "my life sucks, Joe Louis arena sucks, game sucks, I want to see some fight" -- Sweet, I'm not either, I have gone to literally 70% of this years home games, I love the Joe and the RW. What's your point here?

4) "Ken Holland is not "anti fighter", he has said (at least once) fighter yes but with skill and RIGHT pricetag." Now this has got to be up there with statements of the year. There is so much greatness in this I don't know where to start -- do I begin with Holland and his stance on dressing fighters? The price tag of "tough guys", I dunno, it's that great.

If you want to tell yourself Holland isn't anti-fighting then go ahead -- that's up to you. And as far as "the right price tag" statement, I don't get where you are coming from with this. Here are some guys who are both "fighters" and whose "pricetag", is much closer to Aaron Downey's paycheck then anyone else:

* David Clarkson - 13 goals, 10 assists, 14 FM ---> $837,500.00

* B.J. Crombeen - 10 goals, 8 assists, 15 FM ---> $550,000.00

* Steve Montador - 4 goals, 16 assists, 11 FM ---> $800,000.00

* Greg Campbell - 12 goals, 14 assists, 6 FM ---> $762,500

* Ben Eager - 8 goals, 4 assists, 8 FM ---> $600,000.00

* Brandon Dubinsky - 8 goals, 20 assists - 6 FM ---> $633,333.00

* Colin Fraser - 5 goals, 10 assists, 6 FM ---> $500,000.00

* Brian Sutherby - 7 goals, 4 assists, 6 FM ---> $700,000.00

* Aaron Voros - 8 goals, 7 assists, 9 FM ---> $1M

* Ryan Clowe - 20 goals, 27 assists, 5 FM ---> $1.6M

Clearly, with the exception of Clowe (who I think is def. worth what he's making) there isn't a guy on here making over a million bucks a year. So I mean maybe this will show you that when Holland says things like "guys with skill and right price tag" in regards to grabbing a tough guy, he is simply bulls***ting 100%.

I do want to say though that I am happy with the team we have, while I wouldn't mind a tougher lineup, nothing, and I mean nothing trumps winning games and that's what we're doing. But I do think we should call things for what they are, and stop lying to ourselves.

[hokike 1]

Calling this team "soft" b/c of they are missing one guy from previously mentioned post is way too much IMO.

But if Kenny can make a trade for fists w/o giving up more than 1 fourth liner, fine.

Edited February 20, 2009 by hokike