Thoughts on Downey

[ben_usmc 253]

I hate to tell you this, but every team in the league that dresses an enforcer has a healthy scratch or a guy in the minors that coul bring more as a scorer to the lineup than what that enforcer can.

So no, we're not that much deeper than anyone that we can't afford to dress an enforcer but other teams can. In fact, if it were otherwise, we'd be the one team in the league that could afford to dress enforcers, since we'd have so much talent on the other lines as opposed to the rest of the league.

Your argument makes no sense. So I repeat, why do teams dress enforcers?

That is a very good point. To be honest I'm not even a huge enforcer fan (I like them and understand them, but I prefer a Neil type) I most certainly believe play the hot hand. Downey is scoring putting up points, getting fans into the game, and bringing energy and scoring at a better pace then the two I have mentioned. We have enough depth already why does it matter if we have someone who can throw a punch instead of recieve one; sorry Lilja

Edited March 8, 2009 by ben_usmc

[Z and D for the C 712]

I hate to tell you this, but every team in the league that dresses an enforcer has a healthy scratch or a guy in the minors that could bring more as a scorer to the lineup than what that enforcer can.

So no, we're not that much deeper than anyone that we can't afford to dress an enforcer but other teams can. In fact, if it were otherwise, we'd be the one team in the league that could afford to dress enforcers, since we'd have so much talent on the other lines as opposed to the rest of the league.

Your argument makes no sense. So I repeat, why do teams dress enforcers?

It has nothing to do with what we can or cannot afford. Absolutely we can afford to have downey in, but we have other players that bring more than downey which get the spot. Obviously I'm not the only one who thinks this, which is why downey has only palyed 4 NHL games this season and only when other players have been injured. There are a lot of things the wings COULD afford and still be better than msot, but why do it if we can't be our best? The wings assemble the best team they can when downey is out of the lineup. Don't tell me Downey does something special to our team because we just lost 8-2 with in in the line up, and not only that but scoring a goal. Downey doesn't make our players play any better. All four games he's been in would have gone the exact same with if he was not in. We'd still be 2-2 in the games he has played in.

Other teams dress enforcers because they don't have any other players to fill that void. I'm not saying other teams can afford to have an enforcer more than the wings, I'm saying the wings can afford NOT to, where other teams can't. And obviously the wings do have a different perspective than most other teams which plays a part.

It's not just about "having a scorer" or scoring goals, it's about everything a player can possibly bring. Downey is a great fighter, but he does NOTHING else. He can't grind on the boards, most of the time he's getting hit, and when he tries to deliver a hit he misses.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Your argument makes no sense. So I repeat, why do teams dress enforcers?

For grit? For someone to fight the other team's enforcer? Energy? Popularity?

All of those things, minus extra engery, are not necessities for a team's success. I enjoy having an enforcer in the lineup, but I don't believe that an enforcer is a vital part to a team's success.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

It has nothing to do with what we can or cannot afford. Absolutely we can afford to have downey in, but we have other players that bring more than downey which get the spot. Obviously I'm not the only one who thinks this, which is why downey has only palyed 4 NHL games this season and only when other players have been injured. There are a lot of things the wings COULD afford and still be better than msot, but why do it if we can't be our best? The wings assemble the best team they can when downey is out of the lineup. Don't tell me Downey does something special to our team because we just lost 8-2 with in in the line up, and not only that but scoring a goal. Downey doesn't make our players play any better. All four games he's been in would have gone the exact same with if he was not in. We'd still be 2-2 in the games he has played in.

Other teams dress enforcers because they don't have any other players to fill that void. I'm not saying other teams can afford to have an enforcer more than the wings, I'm saying the wings can afford NOT to, where other teams can't. And obviously the wings do have a different perspective than most other teams which plays a part.

It's not just about "having a scorer" or scoring goals, it's about everything a player can possibly bring. Downey is a great fighter, but he does NOTHING else. He can't grind on the boards, most of the time he's getting hit, and when he tries to deliver a hit he misses.

SO the Pens can't dress a skilled player in place of Godard? How about the Sharks with Shelley or the Lightning with Koci, or the Preds with Belak?

None of those players have any skill, and those teams could put in better players from the minors than any of those guys, yet they still don't. Once again, I don't see your argument as being true.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Then why do you think he's dressed? Or for that matter, why do any teams dress guys like him?

So that Marian Hossa doesn't have to try to fight someone again....

[sureWhyNot 19]

Hell yeah. If only Downey played in last nights game, I'm sure the wings would have played really well and been totally motivated.

Oh wait...

(2 wins and 2 losses this season, with downey)

Ha ha wow -- you are quite simply put -- Ignorant. Either that or you are just being obnoxious via statements that make no sense to either side of the debate being had.

If we were to use your logic I shudder to think about what you would want done with Osgood -- I mean that is seeing as though you are equating one individual player with the teams record, over the span of 4 games.

The only difference in the two blowouts (8-0 and then 8-2) was that when Downey was in the lineup we scored and had an even +/-, while nearly 2/3 of the team was in the negative.

He had 2 points (a goal and an assist) in 4 games with the Wings making his PPG average .50 per game while only seeing an average of 5 minutes and 12 seconds of ice time a game.

So, in an effort to teach your backwards thinking ass a little something I will break it down for you like this:

* In those 4 games Downey was even (0) in regards to +/-. Now this is not big in itself, but when you look at the +/1 of the guys on his line -- well it says something.

* Again he had 2 points in 4 games making him a .50 point per game player. Spin it any way you want but if you can get this out of a 4th liner seeing 5 minutes a game I am happy.

* Downey has 11 recorded hits in 4 games. By using that ratio in comparison to the rest of the team he would be 3rd behind Stuart and Lilja -- guys that see 14+ minutes of ice a night, where as Downey see's 5.

* His .50 points per game makes him tied with the likes of Fillipula, and ahead of Lebda (.33), Kopecky (.27), Meech (.22), Maltby (.18), and Helm (.06) -- Again, you have to remember the guy only gets 5 minutes a night.

* Since returning for this last 3 game stint with the Wings Aaron Downey's linemates (Kopecky and Draper) have come alive in a way. Draper has put up 2 goals and an assist as well as a +4 in the 3 games paired with Downey. Prior to the last 3 games with Downey, Draper had 5 goals on the season and was a -12. Kopecky, who at a minimum had been lethargic managed to rack up 1 goal and 3 assists in the time span paired with Downey as well as a +4 in that same 3 game stretch.

I mean to argue Downey is worthless defies logic.

Am I claiming he is an offensive threat? No not really, but the evidence is right in front of your eyes, and while not offensively gifted he a) chips in a little bit on the scoreboard, and b) makes the guys he's playing with better.

On top of all this he is a HW enforcer that adds a certain snarl to this team -- a snarl that is all but nonexistent when he is absent.

Should he replace any of the top 9 guys -- HELL NO, that would be crazy. Is he worthy of the top 12 -- well, the numbers say he is, and numbers don't lie.

Something also needs to be said about the fact he is 4 for 4 in fan player of the game voting, with the last 2 games shattering records with the numbers of votes cast. While some here may feel as though they are above the hockey fray and see something no one else does -- therefore deeming Downey "worthless", and "bringing nothing to the table" -- the reality of the situation is that the overwhelming majoroity or Wings fan LOVE the guy in a way they haven't loved a player of his stature in long time. No onther player has been rewarded the player of the game (as voted on by the fans) 4 times in a row (or in Downey's case, 100% of the time he has been in the lineup.)

Will he be in the playoff lineup? Probably not, and I am not even sure he should be -- unless that is a series starts looking like it may get ugly. But with that said there is absolutely no reason what so ever -- NONE -- that he should not be in the lineup night in and night out in the reg. season.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The good news is Babs knows what's up and he's in charge of the lineup card, not this forum!

Downey is as good as in for the playoffs. There's too much dead weight on this team, guys who are around for defensive purposes and not getting the job done!

Yes, you are right - it is good Babcock is in charge. Downey will not be dressed for the Red Wings during the playoffs, nor should he be. There is no purpose for Downey in the playoffs. Helm and Leino will be back up with the team. In fact, you are aware that Downey is likely going back to Grand Rapids when Homer and/or Hossa return right?

Edited March 9, 2009 by GoWings1905

[Z and D for the C 712]

SO the Pens can't dress a skilled player in place of Godard? How about the Sharks with Shelley or the Lightning with Koci, or the Preds with Belak?

None of those players have any skill, and those teams could put in better players from the minors than any of those guys, yet they still don't. Once again, I don't see your argument as being true.

Holy s*** it's not just about skill vs enforcer. I just said that. I go back to what I said earlier about comprehension.

sureWhyNot, I'm not sure about what I said that set you off or what you thought I was saying. Someone said that Downey makes the team play motivated and really well, which is obviously false as we lost 8-2 with him in the lineup. I'm not saying he's a negative or anything, absolutely not (unless he gets in a stupid fight but he does seems smart in that respect) but he doesn't make the team play better or more motivated.

I mentioned the team's record with Downey in it because he asked. I wasn't equating success or lack thereof to downey being in the lineup.

I don't think any reasonable person can actually place an relevance in the PPG of someone who has played 4 games. Lets go back to the good old brunnstrom theory(sp?). I don't think anyone was thinking he would be a 246 goal scorer just because he got a hattrick his first NHL game. You need at least 15 games before you can take any heed in PPG.

What numbers say he deserves a top 12 spot? He's played four games, he doesn't have any (meaningful) numbers. When he plays 15 games this season tell me about his numbers. That is, if he manages to play that many games.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Z and D for the C

[dklotz 0]

Long time reader of the forums but I've never had the urge to post.....

I personally love players like Downey even though they don't contribute to putting points on the board every night.... If you look around the league roll players are often one of the fan favorites of every team and Downey is no different in Detroit... He's played 4 games this season and every time he's on the ice the people at the Joe are on the edge of their seats which is what you want with a sports team... You want your fans to be engaged in the game and not just sitting there until you score a goal.... His style of play has always been loved in Detroit because it quite frankly fits in with the mentality of the city; hardworking and blue collar...

Now I know the Wings have so many talented players in the minors that are just on the bubble to get into the lineup but they're all young and have their whole careers in front of them... Having a 4th line that ups the tempo in the game and contributes with goals every so often shouldn't be a bad thing with a team like the Wings since everyone is so talented.. Their top three lines are more talented than some entire teams in the NHL so they should provide the goals needed to take the Wings far into the playoffs, while maintaining a tougher 4th line like we've seen in the last week...

That's just my two cents on the subject so please don't flame me like I've seen in parts of this thread....

Go Wings!!!!

[ComradeWasabi 109]

massive wall of text

I don't get why you are throwing out statistics based on 4 games. Okay, he played a good four games. Everybody in the league has played a good four games except maybe Dan Cloutier.

Go back to last year, examine his numbers and statistics and production and then come back. I'll wait. Your argument based on his statistics is as ignorant as saying that he doesn't help our team win because we're 2-2 with him in the lineup. The sample size is ridiculously small. Try taking Gaborik's 5-goal game from last season and saying that he would have been on pace for 410 goals. Nuh-uh. (For the record, I hate excessive stat analysis, in case you couldn't tell. If hockey was a game of statistics then Stephen Hawking would be my favourite player.)

I don't think anybody is arguing that he's not a big hit with the fans (if they are, they're wrong), the thing is that you and others want him in there every game and others do not. I would rather play Kopecky, Maltby and Draper down the stretch and let them prepare for the playoffs than play Downey. Or, for that matter, if we're not going to play one of Kopecky, Maltby of Draper, then call up Helm or Leino again (salary cap providing) to help then prepare for the playoffs.

The time for having an enforcer in the lineup because he's popular is passed. At this point, the Wings needs to buckle down and start playing like they're capable and I fail to see how having Downey in the lineup is going to make that happen.. and don't cite his statistics at me again.

[The Mule 0]

This argument is arguably (no pun intended) the stupidest thing I've ever read. I hate to jump in like this, but none of you are the coach, and none of you get to decide who gets to play night in and night out, so for the love of God, please put your excessive, third-grade bitching on the back burner for a while and just enjoy the games. In short, since I have no doubt a coherent sentence might fail to get through your thick ******* skulls, SHUT THE f*** UP.

Edited March 9, 2009 by The Mule

[ben_usmc 253]

This argument is arguably (no pun intended) the stupidest thing I've ever read. I hate to jump in like this, but none of you are the coach, and none of you get to decide who gets to play night in and night out, so for the love of God, please put your excessive, third-grade bitching on the back burner for a while and just enjoy the games. In short, since I have no doubt a coherent sentence might fail to get through your thick ******* skulls, SHUT THE f*** UP.

people talking about things they can't change on a message board quite shocking . With your logic why do we even have a ******* message board we can't change a damn thing about the wings why bother discussing anything.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

Does all the cussing make your opinion more "right"? C'mon guys. Why insult someone for thier opinion on the forum. Let's go back to the "old" days when people insulted each other in PM's. The cussing isn't really necessary, is it?

BTW, y'all know that all the cussing is what made the board go down for 12 hours, right. The Hockey Gods had enough and exacted their electronic revenge.

[Johnny Diamonds 25]

I like Downey alot. He's tough and he has a great attitude. It seems the rest of the team likes having him around as well. It's a shame he doesn't have a bit more skill to go along with his mental and physical toughness. It's great to have an enforcer on your team at all times. Though idealy the type of enforcer I'd like to see the Wings have is in the mold of a McCarty,Probert, Kocur. Guys who can kick ass and play hockey with some skill. Nashville right now has the best of both worlds they got two enforcers who would never be taken out of the lineup whether in the playoffs or not. Because both FooFoo and Weber bring something else to the table besides droping gloves. I would love to see Holland get us a player in the future with all those attributes.

[Opie 308]

Downey ahead by a landslide in fan voting. Going to win for the fourth straight game in a row in which he has dressed.

Never been done by a Red Wing -- Fans love this guy by and large, and there is really no way to sensibly deny that.

First off I am not trying to say he is not a fan favorite, he should be with his lunch pail attitude, however fan voting almost got Rory Fitzpatrick to the All star game, it almost got the Habs as the starting 5 in the all star game. Lets not get to carried away with fan voting as it has been proven some one with a little know how and a batch file can rig online voting.

I missed the last game, Downey scored and an assist, great, this is what I want from an enforcer, that is what 3 points in his last 3 games, ABSOLUTELY F---ING FANTASTIC

I am happy, I want an enforcer that puts up points.

Now if he can get hot and pot 2-3 more goals pick up 3-5 more assists before the season is over, SWEET!

Pen him into the Postseason line up and call LGW happy!

The enforcers would get their enforcer and the supposed anti-enforcers would get the enforcer that puts points up.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

First off I am not trying to say he is not a fan favorite, he should be with his lunch pail attitude, however fan voting almost got Rory Fitzpatrick to the All star game, it almost got the Habs as the starting 5 in the all star game. Lets not get to carried away with fan voting as it has been proven some one with a little know how and a batch file can rig online voting.

I missed the last game, Downey scored and an assist, great, this is what I want from an enforcer, that is what 3 points in his last 3 games, ABSOLUTELY F---ING FANTASTIC

I am happy, I want an enforcer that puts up points.

Now if he can get hot and pot 2-3 more goals pick up 3-5 more assists before the season is over, SWEET!

Pen him into the Postseason line up and call LGW happy!

The enforcers would get their enforcer and the supposed anti-enforcers would get the enforcer that puts points up.

And I want a platinum blonde who loves me, a Ferrari, and caviar for breakfast every morning.

If that's really what you want from an enforcer, then I'm sorry to say, you're pretty much anti-enforcer, since only a handful of players can actually give you what you want. And no, Lucic is not an enforcer, so don't go that route either.

Edited March 9, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[Opie 308]

And I want a platinum blonde who loves me, a Ferrari, and caviar for breakfast every morning.

If that's really what you want from an enforcer, then I'm sorry to say, you're pretty much anti-enforcer, since only a handful of players can actually give you what you want. And no, Lucic is not an enforcer, so don't go that route either.

Really?

The only enforcers in the league can not score?? Really is that your stance??

WOW, maybe I have thug/goon confused with with what you call an enforcer.

Here I stole this from GS&T

Opie,

I am with you. Like I mentioned above, people tend to take this argument to the extremes. It's ridiculous and doesn't need to go there.

I know where you stand on this position and I concur for the most part. Would love to have a guy like Clowe or Lucic. But they are hard to find.

However, there are lots and lots of players out there who are regular contributors to their teams, take regular shifts, contribute in more ways than just the scoreboard and can also fight.

You take a guy like Eric Nystrom, makes about the same money as Kopecky but won't hesitate to defend himself or his teammates. He plays a regular shift for Calgary.

Look at Cody McCleod. Here's a guy with 12 goals this year, 116 PIM's and makes LESS money than Kopecky.

BJ Crombeen $550,000, 10 goals, 17 points, 125 PIM's.

Adam Mair

Aaron Asham

The list goes on and on. There are plenty of inexpensive guys around the league that could add a little jam to our lineup.

Honestly, would you take Kopecky or Cody McCleod? Or Kopecky vs BJ Crombeen

Seriously, Kopecky, for as big a body he is, is about as effective as a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. If Kopa never played another game for the Wings would anyone really miss his 2 or 3 goals a year and what, 10 points to go along with his pathetic excuse for body checking for a guy his size?

The list goes on and on. There are plenty of guys out there

Thanks GS&T

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Really?

The only enforcers in the league can not score?? Really is that your stance??

WOW, maybe I have thug/goon confused with with what you call an enforcer.

Here I stole this from GS&T

Thanks GS&T

GS&T didn't mention one guy in his post who's an enforcer. All those guys are just middleweights who fight from time to time, but not against regular heavies.

Once again, your definition of an enforcer is not a traditional one. I'm talking about guys like Belak, Godard, Shelley, Orr and so on. These guys aren't there to score, and they are real enforcers.

[uk_redwing 495]

Downey's been sent down to GR.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Downey's been sent down to GR.

Why wouldn't he be. He hasn't contributed at all to this team since he was called up. Obviously the 4th line is the reason we gave up those 8 goals last game.

Seriously, this organization pisses me off sometimes.

Oh well, at least we got to see one good fight while he was playing. Probably our last of the season, unless Kopecky wants to man up with someone.

[Mors 201]

Downey's been sent down to GR.

Of course he has, who needs him around when we've got Meech working on his -11 ...

[Johnny Diamonds 25]

Why wouldn't he be. He hasn't contributed at all to this team since he was called up. Obviously the 4th line is the reason we gave up those 8 goals last game.

Seriously, this organization pisses me off sometimes.

Oh well, at least we got to see one good fight while he was playing. Probably our last of the season, unless Kopecky wants to man up with someone.

He was sent down because Homer is back. What are they gonna do cut someone from the current roster to keep Downey up?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

He was sent down because Homer is back. What are they gonna do cut someone from the current roster to keep Downey up?

Well, there is this 6'3 stiff playing on our 4th line, who doesn't do anything remotely physical out there. He finally had a good game last week, but that was still the exception to his play.

[Johnny Diamonds 25]

Well, there is this 6'3 stiff playing on our 4th line, who doesn't do anything remotely physical out there. He finally had a good game last week, but that was still the exception to his play.

ok...

[Johnny Diamonds 25]