The misconception that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are equal

[puckbags 863]

Jeff Bridges was being very un-dude in this thread.

The dude (aka Bridges, aka Danza) is not really abiding at all. He should just realize that Dat's and Z really tie a dressing room together !!

[TonyDanza 0]

huh?

datsyuk's my favorite player, and i've long said he's the better player between he and zetterberg. up until this years it's been a reasonable debate. but dats has clearly been the best player on the team this year, while zetterberg has fallen to third or possibly fourth. i'm not sure what happened to zetterberg. for those saying zetterberg is better defensively, dats has a 20 point edge in +/- and again leads the team in that regard (tied for second in the league). it's not a definitive stat, but still, a 20 point discrepancy garners attention. not to mention datsyuk is a +35 on a team that's been lousy defensively this year by its standards. datsyuk is a great defensive player. i'm not going to say he's definitely better defensively than zetterberg, but it's debatable. their styles of defense are dissimilar.

offensively, there's no debate (this year). zetterberg never feels like a threat to score anymore. i'm not sure if it's his back, or he's being defended tighter after a break-out season and playoffs last year, or what, but he's not creating much at all this year. most every time he enters the zone he loses the puck. he's turned into a right place right time kind of guy instead of creating his own offense, which is something that datsyuk does as well as anybody in the league. datsyuk's so dangerous because he creates his own offense. that's why he can play with anybody and that's why he makes anybody playing with him better. zetterberg works much better with datsyuk creating the offense and zetterberg finishing the play. when he's relied on solely to create the offense, he doesn't seem to shine as brightly. my two cents.

Everytime a player is lacking in one area of the game, "Leadership" is brought up. See Draper and Maltby.

How much "leadership" does a room need? Lidstrom and Yzerman were not ra ra, yelling type guys. Their leadership was on the ice, in the way they practiced and performed. Datsyuk and Zetterberg do both of those things. The only difference is that one speaks better English than the other. Apparently thats a problem, although everytime I see Datsyuk on the bench hes talking to someone. Everytime he does an interview you can pretty much understand him. These guys have spent years together, I really doubt Datsyuk sits in the corner by himself, says nothing to his teammates, while Zetterberg is jumping around screaming, getting people into the "zone".

Again, another misconception backed by no fact that Zetterberg is somehow a better leader. Hes an obvious choice to be the next captain because hes more marketable. Its the same reason Malkin will NEVER be captain of the Pens unless Crosby is traded.

[eva unit zero 271]

tony danza = jeff bridges?

Nice goin', Angela!

[puckbags 863]

Nice goin', Angela!

I just had to google Alysa Milano

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Nice goin', Angela!

i don't know what that means.

[Antilles328 0]

Based on statistics over their career

Some things that stand out.

-Z has more goals in nearly 100 less games.

-Dats is a better playmaker with significantly more assists. (.7 /game vs .5 /game)

-Dats has a slight edge in Regular Season production .992 PPG vs. .941

-Z has a clear edge in Playoff Production .839 vs. .659. He might be considered more "clutch" or a better playoff performer.

-Very comparible +/- per game in both Regular Season and Playoffs (Balance offense vs. defense)

I think it's safe to say that statistically they are very comparable. Dats has been having a better 2009 season but Z has been able to step it up the playoffs in the past. Playoffs are what people remember.

Both are incredible players, though.

I wonder how many of Zs goals were Dats assisted and vice versa.

As a side note, Franzen has more play-off game winning goals and a better +/- than both Dats and Z in only 40 games. This might be a result of D and Z being a huge liability defensively when they were paired with Hull.

[gcom007 1,465]

I've been saying this for a long, long while now. Hell, I would've given him the Conn Smythe last year. For me it was Dats, Osgood and then Zetterberg. He's just outstanding in every way. Z is great, no doubt about it, but Dats is the better player and certainly the more consistent and independently great player.

[RusDRW 155]

I never understood why zetterberg is hated on these boards. Why do we have to have a 5 pages rantings that dats is better? It really sounds like Z is playing on a different team and not a red wing for life.

the reason is that people on these boards always believe "by default" Zetterberg is better due to his (i) defensive play and (ii) those 6 goals against Edmonton in 2006 that made him "clutch play-off performer". And once again saying that Dats is better takes nothing out of Zetterberg. He is still one of the best centers in NHL.

I would say Zetterberg is "average" superstar like Crosby, Parise, Heatley if you get what I mean. He is excellent and always energetic with the puck, has good ice vision, outstanding defensive part of the game but... has nothing that distinguish him from that elite group of players. Datsyuk is something different. In addition to all those merits he is unique with creating opportunities for his linemates and the only player in this league that may _actually_ create someting out of nothing. Sometimes I think I'm biased a little bit but every time I watch him playing I've got this impression. Watching hockey from both sides of the Atlantic ocean for around 20 years I've never seen players like Datsyuk.

[TonyDanza 0]

Based on statistics over their career

Some things that stand out.

-Z has more goals in nearly 100 less games.

-Dats is a better playmaker with significantly more assists. (.7 /game vs .5 /game)

-Dats has a slight edge in Regular Season production .992 PPG vs. .941

-Z has a clear edge in Playoff Production .839 vs. .659. He might be considered more "clutch" or a better playoff performer.

-Very comparible +/- per game in both Regular Season and Playoffs (Balance offense vs. defense)

I think it's safe to say that statistically they are very comparable. Dats has been having a better 2009 season but Z has been able to step it up the playoffs in the past. Playoffs are what people remember.

Both are incredible players, though.

I wonder how many of Zs goals were Dats assisted and vice versa.

As a side note, Franzen has more play-off game winning goals and a better +/- than both Dats and Z in only 40 games. This might be a result of D and Z being a huge liability defensively when they were paired with Hull.

Datsyuk's playoff production is severely skewed from playing a very small role in the 2002 cup run. Playing fourth line minutes and riding the bench for 21 games and producing 6 points.

In 2003, Zetterberg was effectively playing on the second line with Datsyuk and Hull. Datsyuk wasn't afforded that luxury his rookie season.

Remove 2002, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have nearly identical stats in the post season.

[zetterbergfan 23]

Probably pretty obvious which side I am on, although I would say they are pretty equal. You can't say Datsyuk is that much better offensively. He is a career .99 points-per-game. Z is .95. But Z also has 12 more goals in 94 fewer games.

Career +/-??? virtually equal as far as on a game by game basis. Dats is +.30 per game over his career. Z is + .28.

This year sort of distorts the stats also. This debate went in favor of Zetterberg prior to now and wouldn't have even been a question if asked right after the playoffs.

Z has been moved to the second line with second line forwards. Datsyuk plays with Holmstrom and either Hossa or Zetterberg in most cases. The constant partner changing has affected Hank's game.

If you look at penalty-killing minutes, key face-offs, and maybe intangible leadership qualities (not abilities) I think you can give an edge to Zetterberg, just as we always have prior to this year.

Datsyuk is always going to stand out more when you watch. He makes prettier plays, fancier moves, etc. But with all that vastly superior talent, shouldn't his numbers be vastly superior to Z's?

Two different styles, pretty close statistically...it's just a matter of preference.

[frederick9125 0]

How many more seasons will it take before this belief is squashed? The stats and tape show that Datsyuk consistantly can play with anyone on the team and put up 85+ points. Z's biggest career season came while playing with Datsyuk last season.

This is mainly in reaction to Babcock calling Datsyuk the "Best forward in the game".

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team? It seems like every comparison thread has Datsyuk or Zetterberg as equal and its simply not the case. They get the same minutes, Zetterberg has better linemates and hes 20 points behind Datsyuk.

In before eva or others say "Zetterberg is better defensively, the Selke is a sham" and somehow Zetterberg's unrecognized defense somehow puts him on the same level as Datsyuk.

In all honesty, Datsyuk is doing nothing but getting better while Z seems to have hit his career potential without being paired with Datsyuk. A Selke finalist, 75 point player is nothing to put down but its clearly not the same as a 100 point Selke season.

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

who's game isn't lifted by playing with him? i could prolly put up 70pts with him

[gcom007 1,465]

Furthermore, Dats battled injuries in the playoffs for a couple of years. And he just keeps getting better every year in every way. He's shooting more and scoring more but getting even more assists along the way too. I don't even think we've seen the end of it. I think we've got a 2-3 solid years of Dats continuing to elevate his game to a higher level. I don't see that happening with Z, especially if he continues to struggle with the minor back issues. They won't devestate his play by any means, but they're not going to help it.

[TonyDanza 0]

Probably pretty obvious which side I am on, although I would say they are pretty equal. You can't say Datsyuk is that much better offensively. He is a career .99 points-per-game. Z is .95. But Z also has 12 more goals in 94 fewer games.

Career +/-??? virtually equal as far as on a game by game basis. Dats is +.30 per game over his career. Z is + .28.

This year sort of distorts the stats also. This debate went in favor of Zetterberg prior to now and wouldn't have even been a question if asked right after the playoffs.

Z has been moved to the second line with second line forwards. Datsyuk plays with Holmstrom and either Hossa or Zetterberg in most cases. The constant partner changing has affected Hank's game.

If you look at penalty-killing minutes, key face-offs, and maybe intangible leadership qualities (not abilities) I think you can give an edge to Zetterberg, just as we always have prior to this year.

Datsyuk is always going to stand out more when you watch. He makes prettier plays, fancier moves, etc. But with all that vastly superior talent, shouldn't his numbers be vastly superior to Z's?

Two different styles, pretty close statistically...it's just a matter of preference.

If Datsyuk and Zetterberg were separated more often the discrepancy would be much larger in scoring. Everyone outside of Hossa is pretty much equal in the top six. Cleary, Hudler, Sammy and Franzen have all been paried with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The fact is, both Datsyuk and Zetterberg have changed linemates tons of times this season.

It really isn't an excuse for a 22 point difference in scoring.

[eva unit zero 271]

Datsyuk's playoff production is severely skewed from playing a very small role in the 2002 cup run. Playing fourth line minutes and riding the bench for 21 games and producing 6 points.

In 2003, Zetterberg was effectively playing on the second line with Datsyuk and Hull. Datsyuk wasn't afforded that luxury his rookie season.

Remove 2002, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have nearly identical stats in the post season.

Zetterberg has been playing in a defensive role on the second line all season while Datsyuk has been playing in an offensive role on the first line all season. Datsyuk has had more talented linemates in more games. Zetterberg wasn't afforded those luxuries this season so his scoring numbers suffered.

Oops, did I use your own argument against you, and now you'll say it doesn't count?

Zetterberg played on the second line his rookie season because he was good enough to. Datsyuk wasn't afforded that luxury because he didn't earn it.

[TonyDanza 0]

Zetterberg has been playing in a defensive role on the second line all season while Datsyuk has been playing in an offensive role on the first line all season. Datsyuk has had more talented linemates in more games. Zetterberg wasn't afforded those luxuries this season so his scoring numbers suffered.

Oops, did I use your own argument against you, and now you'll say it doesn't count?

Zetterberg played on the second line his rookie season because he was good enough to. Datsyuk wasn't afforded that luxury because he didn't earn it.

Yes, because Zetterberg is playing epic defensively while Datsyuk is free to float as much as possible... your argument has no basis because it in fact does not exist.

In 02-03 Datsyuk played in 15 less games and still outscored Zetterberg.

In 03-04 Datsyuk played in 14 more games and scored 25 more points, the first season he led the team in scoring. Effectively replacing Sergei Fedorov in his third NHL season.

What will the excuse be this year when Datsyuk finishes top three in Selke voting or heaven forbid wins it again? What happens if next year produces the same results? Does Datsyuk need to lead the team in scoring for a decade before hes even considered the best on the team?

[Namingway 146]

tony danza = jeff bridges=mindfly

[TonyDanza 0]

tony danza = jeff bridges=mindfly

Nope, try again

[eva unit zero 271]

Yes, because Zetterberg is playing epic defensively while Datsyuk is free to float as much as possible... your argument has no basis because it in fact does not exist.

In 02-03 Datsyuk played in 15 less games and still outscored Zetterberg.

In 03-04 Datsyuk played in 14 more games and scored 25 more points, the first season he led the team in scoring. Effectively replacing Sergei Fedorov in his third NHL season.

What will the excuse be this year when Datsyuk finishes top three in Selke voting or heaven forbid wins it again? What happens if next year produces the same results? Does Datsyuk need to lead the team in scoring for a decade before hes even considered the best on the team?

If you can explain to me why offense matters in how the Selke winner is selected, then I may give in to your argument. As it stands, I still say Zetterberg is more deserving of the Selke than Datsyuk, but neither is likely to win it this season. Also, please learn that +/- is NOT a defensive statistic and does NOT represent a player's defensive ability. There are not really any stats kept by the NHL that reliably track defensive performance.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Also, please learn that +/- is NOT a defensive statistic and does NOT represent a player's defensive ability. There are not really any stats kept by the NHL that reliably track defensive performance.

it's the best stat we have for it. it is certainly somewhat indicative of over all play. especially when you see the consistency dats has shown with +/-, leading all wings forwards the past three years and the team the past two. the lines have constantly been shuffled this year, through which one bright spot has shone in terms of +/-, datsyuk. he's 12 higher than the next best forward and 20 higher than zetterberg. it's by no means and end all be all stat, but it is worth looking at. last year when zetterberg and dats were mostly playing together, datsyuk still outpaced z by 11.

[TonyDanza 0]

If you can explain to me why offense matters in how the Selke winner is selected, then I may give in to your argument. As it stands, I still say Zetterberg is more deserving of the Selke than Datsyuk, but neither is likely to win it this season. Also, please learn that +/- is NOT a defensive statistic and does NOT represent a player's defensive ability. There are not really any stats kept by the NHL that reliably track defensive performance.

+/- is only relevant when its two comparable players. You wouldn't compare the +/- of a guy on the Thrashers and the Wings.

On the other hand, we're comparing two centers, on the same team, with comparable linemates playing similar roles, getting nearly the exact same ice time.

Plus minus is relevant in this discussion, if it favored Zetterberg you would be using it.

YOU'RE making this about the Selke, the Selke is only part of it. Your only argument is that Zetterberg is better defensively, which is debatable. I think Datsyuk winning the Selke and Zetterberg finishing third in voting settles it but apparently not.

What happens when Datsyuk finishes top three in Selke voting and Zetterberg does not?

The fact is, the last thing you hold onto is defense. Like we're comparing Bure to Fedorov here. We're comparing two playmaking centers who play amazing defense on the same team. Datsyuk is outscoring Zetterberg by a large margin, the mystery defense you speak of is the only thing keeping you in this argument.

Zetterberg can only be truly used as the "Shutdown center" at home. On the road, opposing coaches choose the line matches, although Babcock can sometimes change that. If Z is facing all of the top lines on the road, its because the opposing coach would rather have his top talent facing Z instead of Pavel.

At home, the Wings choose to play top line versus top line. So again, your "Shutdown center" excuse has no relevance.

[Namingway 146]

Nope, try again

Hmm, you're right. Even Mindfly would be able to say something nice about Z

[TonyDanza 0]

Hmm, you're right. Even Mindfly would be able to say something nice about Z

This is why this discussion can never happen. Saying Datsyuk is the second best player on the team is fine. Saying Zetterberg is the second best forward is "mean".

Similar in the way that Fedorov was the best player on this team from 1994-2004 but Yzerman was the fan favorite.

[Namingway 146]

This is why this discussion can never happen. Saying Datsyuk is the second best player on the team is fine. Saying Zetterberg is the second best forward is "mean".

Similar in the way that Fedorov was the best player on this team from 1994-2004 but Yzerman was the fan favorite.

No, but belittling Z to make Dats look better is.

Also, :violin:

Edited March 25, 2009 by Namingway

[soonboomer 31]

Up to this point in their careers, it can't be disputed that come playoff time, Z>D.

[Electrophile 3,554]

i don't know what that means.

Wikipedia "Who's The Boss".