Nick Lidstrom a Norris Finalist

[Guest Shoreline]

Well, no matter; that was then and this is now. What's important is that Nick's got more points and a better +/- than Mr. Faux Hawk, and Nick's team moves on while Mike's doesn't.

Interesting how the the good majority of teams with players that have more experience seem to be doing better. Pittsburgh? Detroit? Anaheim? Jersey? Regular season stats mean nothing either come playoff time. No one is going to be intimidated by Green's Norris threat. Rangers will almost certainly lose the next series if they advance.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Interesting how the the good majority of teams with players that have more experience seem to be doing better. Pittsburgh? Detroit? Anaheim? Jersey? Regular season stats mean nothing either come playoff time. No one is going to be intimidated by Green's Norris threat. Rangers will almost certainly lose the next series if they advance.

Which is why Boston fans are giddy about the prospect of the Rangers knocking the Caps out early.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Green missed 14 games in which he did not help his team. It is a proven fact that GP plays a HUGE part in Norris voting, since only Bobby Orr managed to win Norris after missing 12 games, and Bobby Orr is top4 player ever.

It's also a proven fact that GOALS play a huge part in the Norris voting, you're obviously a little slow so i will try to spell this out for you as clearly as possible.

Mike Green tied for the 11th highest goal scoring season in HISTORY by a defenseman. The only defenseman who had higher goal-scoring seasons were: Bobby Orr ( hall of famer), Paul Coffey (Hall of Famer), Denis Potvin (Hall of Famer), Doug Wilson ( 8 time all-star), and Kevin Hatcher ( 5 time all star). All of this and he still missed 14 games. Everyone else ahead of him on this list played at least 73 games in their respiective season, Green played 68

Among the top 35 goal scoring seasons by a defense man, Green finished 7th in goals per game average, only Coffey, Orr and Wilson had better.

In the season you are referring to, Orr scored less goals than Green did this year (1 less goal in 2 less games) and had the exact same goals per game average that Green does this year.

You're acting like the guy missed half of a season, the bottom line is the guy had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever by a defenseman despite playing only 83 percent of the season!! The fact that he missed 14 games and still put up those numbers will HELP him.....He also broke the consecutive games with a goal record by a D-man.......The trophy is Green's plain and simple.

[toby91_ca 620]

It's also a proven fact that GOALS play a huge part in the Norris voting, you're obviously a little slow so i will try to spell this out for you as clearly as possible.

Mike Green tied for the 11th highest goal scoring season in HISTORY by a defenseman. The only defenseman who had higher goal-scoring seasons were: Bobby Orr ( hall of famer), Paul Coffey (Hall of Famer), Denis Potvin (Hall of Famer), Doug Wilson ( 8 time all-star), and Kevin Hatcher ( 5 time all star). All of this and he still missed 14 games. Everyone else ahead of him on this list played at least 73 games in their respiective season, Green played 68

Among the top 35 goal scoring seasons by a defense man, Green finished 7th in goals per game average, only Coffey, Orr and Wilson had better.

In the season you are referring to, Orr scored less goals than Green did this year (1 less goal in 2 less games) and had the exact same goals per game average that Green does this year.

You're acting like the guy missed half of a season, the bottom line is the guy had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever by a defenseman despite playing only 83 percent of the season!! The fact that he missed 14 games and still put up those numbers will HELP him.....He also broke the consecutive games with a goal record by a D-man.......The trophy is Green's plain and simple.

Really? I think it's been about 10 years since the top goal scoring defenseman has won the Norris. FYI, Mike Green led all defenseman in goals last year too.....did he even get a sniff of the Norris?

I agree that Green will get a lot of votes this year due to the wide margin he outscored the other defenseman, but I don't think he'll win.......which is quite a different story to your "the trophy is Green's plain and simple" or "if you truly think that the 30 goal season didn't win this trophy for him lock stock and barrel then you are delusional."

[egroen 384]

It's also a proven fact that GOALS play a huge part in the Norris voting, you're obviously a little slow so i will try to spell this out for you as clearly as possible.

Mike Green tied for the 11th highest goal scoring season in HISTORY by a defenseman. The only defenseman who had higher goal-scoring seasons were: Bobby Orr ( hall of famer), Paul Coffey (Hall of Famer), Denis Potvin (Hall of Famer), Doug Wilson ( 8 time all-star), and Kevin Hatcher ( 5 time all star). All of this and he still missed 14 games. Everyone else ahead of him on this list played at least 73 games in their respiective season, Green played 68

Among the top 35 goal scoring seasons by a defense man, Green finished 7th in goals per game average, only Coffey, Orr and Wilson had better.

In the season you are referring to, Orr scored less goals than Green did this year (1 less goal in 2 less games) and had the exact same goals per game average that Green does this year.

You're acting like the guy missed half of a season, the bottom line is the guy had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever by a defenseman despite playing only 83 percent of the season!! The fact that he missed 14 games and still put up those numbers will HELP him.....He also broke the consecutive games with a goal record by a D-man.......The trophy is Green's plain and simple.

Paul Coffey scored 40 goals and 126 points, which was second in scoring of ALL players in the NHL in 1984 and did not win the Norris (in fact, he was 5th in voting). Phil Housley also had over thirty goals that year. Rod Langway won it with 32 points.

Kevin Hatcher never won a Norris.

Defense matters.

Defensively, Wilson was better than Green is now, but I'll say Green is already better defensively than Housley and Hatcher. I'd say Green's defense right now is comparable to Coffey, in that both of them are a bit underrated in that department, though Coffey had wheels Green could only dream of, which allowed him to get back more often (so I would still give Coffey the edge).

Potvin and Orr were ten times the defensive players Green is now.

For almost 1/5 of the season Green did absolutely nothing to help his team.

[interminded 1]

You said that Green had outperformed Lidstrom, and then went on to suggest he'd be a hell of a player if he developed like Lidstrom.

So if Green > Lidstrom now, then Green will turn... worse as he develops?

IMO, he has outperformed Lidstrom, yes.

That said, it doesn't mean he's overall the better player. I still think Lidstrom is. Just not this year.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Really? I think it's been about 10 years since the top goal scoring defenseman has won the Norris. FYI, Mike Green led all defenseman in goals last year too.....did he even get a sniff of the Norris?

I agree that Green will get a lot of votes this year due to the wide margin he outscored the other defenseman, but I don't think he'll win.......which is quite a different story to your "the trophy is Green's plain and simple" or "if you truly think that the 30 goal season didn't win this trophy for him lock stock and barrel then you are delusional."

He didn't get a sniff last year because he didn't have a goal total that ranked among the all time leaders by defenseman....which he does this year. This is the same reason the top goal scoring defenseman hasnt won the award in a while....they didn't have an exceptional goal scoring season.

Not counting Green's season this year (we don't know the result yet), there have been 16 defenseman who have scored 30 goals in 14 NHL seasons (3 did it in 83-84) and in 11 of those 14 seasons the 30 goal scoring defenseman won the Norris (The three exceptions were when Hall of Famer Rod Langway beat out Coffey, Housley, and Bourque in 83-84, and when Chelios had identical 15-58-73 seasons in 88-89 and 92-93 beating out Coffey and Hatcher, respectively.) Couple this with the fact that Lidstrom didn't have a great year by his standards, the fact that he's won this award for the better part of 10 years and the fact that Chara doesn't even have the best defensive stats on his team and you have Green running away with this thing.

[egroen 384]

Again - there is a reason guys like Coffey, Housley and Hatcher did not win Norrises in years they were over thirty goals, and guys like Potvin, Orr and Wilson did -- those guys were elite defensively as well as capable of putting up huge offensive numbers.

Green is not there yet. To compound it, Green missed over ten games this season.

Green very well might win it because he scored a lot of goals, but he does not deserve it.

[softshoes 83]

You said that Green had outperformed Lidstrom, and then went on to suggest he'd be a hell of a player if he developed like Lidstrom.

So if Green > Lidstrom now, then Green will turn... worse as he develops?

Thank you

Also the part where you said Green should win hands down then later said "sure he's not the defensive player Lidstrom is".

The irony is it's a defensive award.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Again - there is a reason guys like Coffey, Housley and Hatcher did not win Norrises in years they were over thirty goals, and guys like Potvin, Orr and Wilson did -- those guys were elite defensively as well as capable of putting up huge offensive numbers.

Green is not there yet. To compound it, Green missed over ten games this season.

Green very well might win it because he scored a lot of goals, but he does not deserve it.

In 83-84 Rod Langway won the Norris with 9-24-33 and a plus minus of 14 he beat out :

Coffey who was 40-86-128 with a plus minus of 52 and Ray Bourque who was 31-65-96 with a plus minus of 51.......you're right these guys were HUGE defensive liabilities, thats why they combined to win the award 8 times....gimme a break.....

Also, for the last time Green missed 14 games this year and still scored 31 goals ,if he had played a whole season he probably would have had close to 40 goals and would have won this award by an even bigger margin, the fact that he missed some games and still put up some all-time great defenseman numbers will help him, not hurt him.

[WingsFan2008 0]

It's obvious that Green will win this year. Lidstrom has enough Norris trophies.

[blikst 1]

IMO, he has outperformed Lidstrom, yes.

That said, it doesn't mean he's overall the better player. I still think Lidstrom is. Just not this year.

Uhm, what?

[Doc Holiday 0]

I don't believe Green outperformed Lidstrom.

First, Green does not always play against top talent, so a lot of his effort can go towards offense considering the player he plays against aren't the best offensive players.

Second, just because Green is having a stellar year offensively doesn't mean he will win it. Defensemen who have dominated in point production have not always won the Norris.

Third, Lidstrom had at most one month of sub-par hockey, and he has outplayed both Green and Chara since then.

Lidstrom should win it in my opinion, but if Chara or Green won it, I wouldn't be overly upset. This is a close top three talent wise.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

He'll be 3rd, it's about the years they had this year, not who's better.

[egroen 384]

In 83-84 Rod Langway won the Norris with 9-24-33 and a plus minus of 14 he beat out :

Coffey who was 40-86-128 with a plus minus of 52 and Ray Bourque who was 31-65-96 with a plus minus of 51.......you're right these guys were HUGE defensive liabilities, thats why they combined to win the award 8 times....gimme a break.....

Also, for the last time Green missed 14 games this year and still scored 31 goals ,if he had played a whole season he probably would have had close to 40 goals and would have won this award by an even bigger margin, the fact that he missed some games and still put up some all-time great defenseman numbers will help him, not hurt him.

I would have voted for Bourque that year - his defense was closer to Langway than it was to Coffey. When did I ever say Bourque was a defensive liability? Or even Coffey or Green for that matter? But Coffey and Green are definitely a far cry from Langway, Bourque and Lidstrom, defensively. Coffey, the years he was winning the Norris, was absolutely obliterating his competition in points and scoring in the top ten for points of all players, not just defenseman. Obviously Green is not there this year.

I am not impressed by Green missing 14 games, and judging by the voting for the Norris over the past 50 years, the voters have largely agreed with me as no one but Orr has missed as many games and still won the Norris. Endurance and durability play a large part in a defenseman's value. Green was no help at all to his team while he was out. It's not like the refs awarded Washington any extra goals while he was away, and even more importantly, he certainly was not helping keep the puck out of his own net those games. Any one who thinks that will help him, doesn't understand the game of hockey.

Edited April 24, 2009 by egroen

[blikst 1]

He'll be 3rd, it's about the years they had this year, not who's better.

Yes it is about who is better, this year. Green no. Chara possible.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

I would have voted for Bourque that year - his defense was closer to Langway than it was to Coffey. When did I ever say Bourque was a defensive liability? Or even Coffey or Green for that matter? But Coffey and Green are definitely a far cry from Langway, Bourque and Lidstrom, defensively. Coffey, the years he was winning the Norris, was absolutely obliterating his competition in points and scoring in the top ten for points of all players, not just defenseman. Obviously Green is not there this year.

I am not impressed by Green missing 14 games, and judging by the voting for the Norris over the past 50 years, the voters have largely agreed with me as no one but Orr has missed as many games and still won the Norris. Endurance and durability play a large part in a defenseman's value. Green was no help at all to his team while he was out. It's not like the refs awarded Washington any extra goals while he was away, and even more importantly, he certainly was not helping keep the puck out of his own net those games. Any one who thinks that will help him, doesn't understand the game of hockey.

You are correct, you did not say they were liabilities and i apologize but you did say that "those guys were elite defensively" while putting up huge numbers... what I am saying is that in 83-84 Coffey had a plus minus of 52 and this year Green had a plus minus of 24, so they are obviously playing pretty good D as well. Also, based on his point per game ratio (which was amassed over the course of 68 games, so there is no reason to think that he would stray from the average very significantly), had Green played a full season he would have amassed 88 points, which would have put him in the top 10 in points for all players- tied for 9th to be exact. During the time he missed he certainly was not helping keep the puck out of the net, but he also wasn't getting the oppurtunity to put it in the net either, which would have increased his already incredible stats......

I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you, in fact I agree with most of what you are saying, I think the Norris should go to the best defensive defenseman (Willie Mitchell in Vancouver routinely gets left out of the conversation and i think it's a crying shame), but it's not up to us (unfortunately lol) to pick the Norris, and my argument isn't who should win it but who i think will and i just think his offensive numbers will be too much for the voters to ignore.....to be honest i don't even like Green and i hate Washington, I just think that this is the way it will go down

[egroen 384]

You are correct, you did not say they were liabilities and i apologize but you did say that "those guys were elite defensively" while putting up huge numbers... what I am saying is that in 83-84 Coffey had a plus minus of 52 and this year Green had a plus minus of 24, so they are obviously playing pretty good D as well. Also, based on his point per game ratio (which was amassed over the course of 68 games, so there is no reason to think that he would stray from the average very significantly), had Green played a full season he would have amassed 88 points, which would have put him in the top 10 in points for all players- tied for 9th to be exact. During the time he missed he certainly was not helping keep the puck out of the net, but he also wasn't getting the oppurtunity to put it in the net either, which would have increased his already incredible stats......

I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you, in fact I agree with most of what you are saying, I think the Norris should go to the best defensive defenseman (Willie Mitchell in Vancouver routinely gets left out of the conversation and i think it's a crying shame), but it's not up to us (unfortunately lol) to pick the Norris, and my argument isn't who should win it but who i think will and i just think his offensive numbers will be too much for the voters to ignore.....to be honest i don't even like Green and i hate Washington, I just think that this is the way it will go down

83-84 Coffey's +/- needs to be taken in the context of the team he was on, ie. one of the best ever. Wayne Gretzky had a +/- of 76 that year, which does not mean he was an incredible defensive player, but that he simply scored a crap load of goals that year (87). Coffey and Gretzky contributed more offensively that year than they did defensively. As a whole, that Oilers team scored 446 goals and allowed 314. Both very high numbers.

Boston that year was not nearly as good, scoring a lot less goals, which makes Bourque's similar +/- that year much more impressive.

Green, playing most of his time with Ovechkin, Semin and Backstrom also enjoyed a high +/- because they scored a ton of goals, and not necessarily because of stellar defensive play. One only has to watch a game to see Green is not even cose to the same level as Lidstrom or Chara. Looking at who Green was on the ice against (I posted earlier) also explains his good +/-. Lidstrom and Chara are consistently out against other teams' first lines -- that is not the case with Green. Given that Green was largely defending against 2nd and 3rd line players, you would hope his +/- was high.

I 100% disagree on the games not played - especially for someone who should be playing defense, games not played are nothing but a negative stat. You can argue that "he would have scored ___" but he didn't, in fact he did nothing at all those games. Lidstrom for 80 games is a hell of a lot more valuable than Mike Green for 68 games. Lidstrom contributed more to his team this season.

I think there are a lot of writers who will look at points and vote Green, but when you start looking more into it -- it starts to become very clear that Lidstrom had a better season.

[egroen 384]

Yes it is about who is better, this year. Green no. Chara possible.

Chara's performance this season is significantly less than Lidstrom's. Chara has a worse +/- despite playing in front of one of the best goalies in the league this year, while Lidstrom was playing in front of the worst. The Wings let in almost 50 goals more this season than Boston. Lidstrom beat him defensively and offensively this year.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

egroen, i'm sending you a personal message

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

IMO, he has outperformed Lidstrom, yes.

That said, it doesn't mean he's overall the better player. I still think Lidstrom is. Just not this year.

In terms of offense, yes.