Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted May 8, 2009 "Curse words can, at times, be an effective way of translating some emotion into a post" I totally agree! And for the record...I do not think the Wings are a bunch of *******. It's all relative. I have a friend who is super smart and just an all around nice guy. He'd never think to get into a fight. I don't think he's a *****. I just think he knows what he's good at and what he ain't. Much like our guys know you can shove, push, face wash and glove on punch back to defend yourself because that's how hockey scrums go. I don't think they're ******* because they won't actually do what Kopecky did last night. I just think they know they are more useful in other ways and that they're smart enough to know that "if I fight that guy, I am liable to get my ******* ass kicked". That's not being a *****. That's just being smart. My only beef is I'd like to add some of the type of players who don't mind actually doing the fighting. Oh, and I'd prefer they be 6-2 or better and 200+, versus happy Hudler or Flip sized. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pasha13 0 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Ex-UFC fighter. And notice that he's lying unconscious face first on the canvas. MMA =/= UFC Sorry, but yes...MMA = UFC = WEC = Backyard Wrestling... Give me boxing any day... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest micah Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Same reason you think the Wings are a bunch of scared *******. I never said Homer would be dumb enough to fight Semenko. Just that he'd let Dave blow his cool and the set up again. Very likely during the ensuing PP. I don't know how old you are, so I have to ask (and not rhetorically, I don't want that one chick ), did you watch a lot of Semenko and the boys like him? He was a mean bastard. If he wanted to fight you, he did. You could either fight back (and get 5 minutes yourself) or get pummeled then turtle, sometimes resulting in your teammate getting a 3rd man in. Homer would have a choice. Fight back and get beat up, or not fight back and get beat up worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Yeah sure, Ducks beat Wings in 07 because they were mean, tough and they fought every game. Wings depleted defense corps had nothing to do with that. Everybody is always so extreme on this issue. Somebody says toughness and immediately comes the counter of "depleted d corps" and yadda yadda. Games are not won or lost by 1 variable. Depleted d corps? Absolutely that had something to do with our losses. Shawn Thornton kicking the crap out of Markov Chris Pronger bloodying up Dan Cleary Did those events have zero effect? Who knows. I am not Markov or Cleary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Last time they didn't need Parros. If memory serves they had Shawn Thornton, Travis Moen and Brad May. So there you go. As for why Parros doesn't play now. What would be the point of that? It'd be like dropping a second nuke on Hiroshima 5 minutes after the 1st one. Let's see, who do the ducks have that can fight? Getzlaf Perry Brown Pronger Beauchemin Brookbank Aside from Ericsson, pretty much all of these guys are better fighters than anyone in our lineup. And outside of Big E, Hossa and Franzen, all of these guys are bigger than everybody on our roster. You can't deny they are bigger, stronger, tougher and better at the physical game than we are. That's their game and that's what they should play. They can beat us that way. They've done it before. I love how people think the Wings can be just as physical as the Ducks. That's ridiculous. Helm is pretty much the only guy out there throwing hits that are more than just something to impede the opposing player. Stuart and Kronner can but haven't done much of it. Look at the play down low, watch our guys hit. It's pathetic. The only big hit Cleary has ever thrown was on Phaneuf. Sammy doesn't hurt anyone. Maltby isn't that effective. Watch our down low forecheck, half the time our guys skate right past the player who just had the puck. Last night Z had a chance to put the body on Getzlaf down low, Getzlaf put the puck back behind the net, Z skated right by him. you know that if that was on the other end of the ice Getzlaf is putting a body on somebody, and at 6-4 and 220 he's going in high and hard. I'll take our style versus the Ducks any day of the week. I'd just prefer we had some bigger players who were more pugilistic and more adept at handling themselves. Seriously, it's great that our guys step up and don't back down. But look what happens. You have Dan Clearly fighting Chris Pronger. You have Getlaf trying to manhandle Z and Franzen. You have Pronger with his eyes crossed trying to kill Datsyuk in that last scrum and only Nick Lidstrom standing in the way. We will never be as good at playing the physical game as the Ducks. They outsize us. I just hope we beat the f***ers. Nobody in their right mind thinks that, but the Wings are physically tougher than the grit-slappies want to admit. They can't accept the fact that this heavily European team doesn't like to fight, but that doesn't make them physically weak. NHL players can't play 82 regular season games and around 25 games in the playoffs and be cream-puffs. I'd like for the grit-slappies to lace 'em up and wear a #96 jersey for even one period and see how "tough" they are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Sorry, but yes...MMA = UFC = WEC = Backyard Wrestling... Give me boxing any day... Boxers ain't s***. I'd also like to point out that the guy lying face first on the canvas was Freddy Roach's boy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reds4Life 51 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Certainly the defenseive injuries played a part, especially when a tough team crashes and bangs you all series. esteef Kronwall and Schneider were out before the series even started. Ducks were lucky, not better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esteef 2,679 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Kronwall and Schneider were out before the series even started. Ducks were lucky, not better. They still finished the job didn't they? Lucky or not. (See Homer's forehead and the Ducks 2007 Cup). esteef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 I don't know how old you are, so I have to ask (and not rhetorically, I don't want that one chick ), did you watch a lot of Semenko and the boys like him? He was a mean bastard. If he wanted to fight you, he did. You could either fight back (and get 5 minutes yourself) or get pummeled then turtle, sometimes resulting in your teammate getting a 3rd man in. Homer would have a choice. Fight back and get beat up, or not fight back and get beat up worse. Enough. Homer would live and do his job on the PP. Stupid very rarely pays off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Nobody in their right mind thinks that, but the Wings are physically tougher than the grit-slappies want to admit. They can't accept the fact this this heavily European team doesn't like to fight, but that doesn't make them physically weak. NHL players can't play 82 regular season games and around 25 games in the playoffs and be cream-puffs. I'd like for the grit-slappies to lace 'em up and wear a #96 jersey for even one period and see how "tough" they are. Just out of curiosity, who are these "grit-slappies" you keep talking about? You make it sound like there's a horde out there, but I can only think of 2 people making comments like that ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pasha13 0 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 (edited) Boxers ain't s***. I'd also like to point out that the guy lying face first on the canvas was Freddy Roach's boy. I'm not saying that what they do isn't hard...but there's no style or finesse...it's just a street fight...they couldn't go 10 rounds, and they couldn't beat a good boxer without choking them to near-unconciousness...there's no comparison in the conditioning of the two... Sorry I'm way off topic...Boxing > MMA, in my opinion...'nuff said. Edited May 8, 2009 by Pasha13 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted May 8, 2009 I saw that play with Z and Getzlaf behind the net too, and my heart sank a little bit. That having been said though, they really dont skate past the puck carrier half the time. In fact, I thought they were doing a pretty good job in the offensive zone getting pressure on the puck and sealing off the boards. It isnt always about punishment, its about forcing the offensive team to hasten their decisions with the puck. I dont think the Wings are deluding themselves into thinking they are going to knock anybody through the boards. Where they really find themselves at a physical disadvantage is defending the cycle in down by their own goal line. Being towards the top of the league in takeaways is all well and good, but when Perry, Getzlaf or Ryan is allowed to just play with the puck along the boards until somebody cuts to the net then a body needs to be put on them. Big Rig is doing very well, but sometimes I think they are just too complacent with "forcing them to the perimeter". I totally agree. The problem arises when you have talented players who can also bang. I said it before the series that anybody who thinks Lidstrom and Co. are going to shut down the Getzlaf line is just crazy. They might as well give up cause that was never going to happen. Those guys cycle at will because they are all bigger than anybody on our team except for Big E. And you are right, there's more to hitting than just punishing. But IMO, if you are going to hit somebody, you might as well do it with authority. Who would you rather have hit you 20 times? Ryan Getzlaf or Mikael Samuelsson? And yes, the Wings know they can't do that and therefore they hit to impede and to create turnovers. And hey, that's a great way to play if you execute. The only thing you have to worry about is if the other, bigger, meaner, stronger team is doing a better job of it than you. And chances are that if they are doing a good job, they're putting more of a beating on you than you are putting on them. Long term effects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Turretin 0 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Kronwall and Schneider were out before the series even started. Ducks were lucky, not better. Ducks were better in 07. That's why they play the game. No excuses, we lost. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 (edited) I agree with NN. The way the game is called today, being brave and tough and willing to risk a busted face for your team does not result in anything but penalties. In today's game, you can ice a team of gutless weaklings who are too scared to fight anybody, and there's nothing a tough guy can do about it. While I hate that the Wings are mostlt cowards when it comes to fighting, a fair portion of the blame has to rest on the league's shoulders. The instigator rule provides the protection to the weak that strong, brave men provided in years past. Tomas Holmstrom would not be able to stand in front of andy Moog, Dave Semenko would have killed him. Back in the day, a guy had to be able to fight for the ice he occupied, it just isn't true anymore. Fixed. It's clear you view the 70s and 80s as the hey-day of the NHL, but that is really only one small chapter. Enforcers did not exist in the league until expansion, which watered down the overall talent in the league enough that teams could bring in someone less skilled to play that role. Like it or not, as the sport of hockey expands internationally, more and more talent will be coming into the NHL, and once again we will see the enforcer all but disappear. The only way to combat this is with expansion - so you better be hoping Bettman succeeds in putting an NHL team in every major city. Dino Ciccarelli is no bigger than Holmstrom, and stood up to those guys, so I see no reason why Holmstrom would not be able to... especially since Holmstrom was also very effective in the 90s, against much bigger guys than you listed. I am undecided on the instigator rule as of now (I was against it for a long time). I now actually think helmets contributed more to the increase of dangerous cheap shotting than the instigator rule has. But like it or not, both helmets and the instigator rule are here to stay. and cheap shots certainly existed before 1992. You love fighting, and while I like it, I love hitting more -- and I do not think someone like George Parros should be able to pummel someone like Pavel Datsyuk because Datsyuk legally hits Teemu Selanne. Edited May 8, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 (edited) Is that true? Did he really say that? Wow! If he did, that's some serious smack talk. Where I come from, that would be akin to calling the Wings a bunch of fecking f*gg&ts. Yeah, he said it right after the triple ot game. He was kind of joking, but he did say it. Edited May 8, 2009 by therock48880 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 That was a fight? No. Kopecky wanted to hug and Beauchemin didn't agree. Pathetic showing by Kopecky, he should be way tougher, not only in fights/hugs but he should be able to hit much harder. Kopecky sucks, but this might be the best thing he has ever done. What Kopecky did is exactly what players on winning teams do. Far from pathetic unless you are short sighted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Certainly the defenseive injuries played a part, especially when a tough team crashes and bangs you all series. esteef Kronwall's injury was a freak occurrence given the hit he took in the Dallas game and IIRC, Schneider broke his arm because of a slash. Not exactly the result of tough teams "crashing and banging the Wings all series". None of the injures came against the Ducks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 What Kopecky did is exactly what players on winning teams do. Far from pathetic unless you are short sighted. You're going to have to explain that one ... what does getting his ass handed to him have to do with playing on a winning team? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Kronwall's injury was a freak occurrence given the hit he took in the Dallas game and IIRC, Schneider broke his arm because of a slash. Not exactly the result of tough teams "crashing and banging the Wings all series". None of the injures came against the Ducks. I think his point is that the lack of depth/talent is even more significant when the other team is pounding the guys who are now playing ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 They still finished the job didn't they? Lucky or not. (See Homer's forehead and the Ducks 2007 Cup). esteef Pronger also got suspended for that play. Congratulations, Chris. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 You're going to have to explain that one ... what does getting his ass handed to him have to do with playing on a winning team? Like I said... unless you are short sighted? Ever play hockey? Obviously not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 I think his point is that the lack of depth/talent is even more significant when the other team is pounding the guys who are now playing ... Yet, all the Wings players aside from Rafalksi (whose injury is yet TBD) who started the playoffs are still just fine. Hmm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esteef 2,679 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Kronwall's injury was a freak occurrence given the hit he took in the Dallas game and IIRC, Schneider broke his arm because of a slash. Not exactly the result of tough teams "crashing and banging the Wings all series". None of the injures came against the Ducks. Never said they did. I don't care who was playing for the Wings, it still doesn't take away from the fact that the Ducks physically outmatched the Wings and moved on. If Schneider and Kronwall were in, (a lesser Kronwall mind you), they would've been getting smacked around with all the other guys. That's the Ducks game, and it usually works against Detroit. esteef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 I'm not saying that what they do isn't hard...but there's no style or finesse...it's just a street fight...they couldn't go 10 rounds, and they couldn't beat a good boxer without choking them to near-unconciousness...there's no comparison in the conditioning of the two... Sorry I'm way off topic...Boxing > MMA, in my opinion...'nuff said. Then you've never seen a good fight. Or been patient enough to pay attention during a good one. In the days of PRIDE it was a 10 minute round followed by two 5 minute rounds. Beats the pants off of a bunch of 3 minute ones with rests in between. MMA > boxing (and hockey fights) 'nuff said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted May 8, 2009 Like I said... unless you are short sighted? Ever play hockey? Obviously not. No, I haven't ... what's your point? I asked for an explanation, not a smart-ass comment. I'll ask again, what does Kopecky getting his ass handed to him have to do with playing on a winning team? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
