egroen 384 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 I see Helm as having the potential to fill-in for Filppula and... Leino as the potential Hudler replacement. Helm is a better hitter, but not as strong defensively Leino is not as good offensively, but has better size Both Filppula and Hudler will get good value from a trade - I just hope we do not lose both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Finnish Wing 110 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 I see Helm as having the potential to fill-in for Filppula and... Leino as the potential Hudler replacement. Helm is a better hitter, but not as strong defensively Leino is not as good offensively, but has better size Both Filppula and Hudler will get good value from a trade - I just hope we do not lose both. FLIP HAS NTC! TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT PPL! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 I appreciate ALL the responses to the thread......and it makes more sense. I am not one that "knows all and everything about hockey..." so that is why I asked the question.... Although I do DISAGREE w/ the comment that Hudler can't take a hit.....can I say Mike Brown..... ...and he played after that... Other than that.....Thank you again for your inputs.....I am relieved that I didn't get a bunch of "crap" answers and just another reason why Wings fans are classy!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LIDDYGIBBY5 1 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 Sorry, my post was a bit ambiguous. I was referring to his status as a RFA, and if he leaves, the Wings will get at least a draft pick in return. A draft pick is the only benefit that I can see for losing him. We would probably get a third round pick, maybe a second but nothing more. Is that worth a Hudler??? Maybe if you are giving up the pick, but not getting it in return. If a team is willing to pay a player that salary and give up a pick for him, it is probably not a good deal for the team that was holding his rights. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LIDDYGIBBY5 1 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) 1) We cannot keep everyone 2) We will get something in return if he signs elsewhere 3) If someone is prepared to pay him upwards of $2.6M p/y we get a 1st and a 3rd 4) Let me repeat that, a 1st and a 3rd round draft pick for Jiri Hudler. If you're Ken Holland, you say "thanks for all you've done, and thanks for the great draft picks" Holland has said it himself regarding managing the cap "Pay to keep your core players, don't overpay for the rest and be prepared to let good players walk" These are the best numbers I can find. Don't expect to get anything better than a second, and I doubt that will happen considering the Wings are bumping their heads into the salary cap. The current expected RFA compensation table for 2008-09 is: Amount Compensation Due $863,156 or less None $863,156 - $1,307,811 3rd round pick $1,307,811 - $2,615,623 2nd round pick $2,615,623 - $3,923,434 1st and 3rd round pick $3,923,434 - $5,231,246 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick $5,231,246 - $6,539,061 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick $6,539,061 or more Four 1st round picks Edited June 16, 2009 by LIDDYGIBBY5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 Qoutes are taken from the "draft" thread.....if this is true, then is it smart to trade up if we can't get a pick til the next year.....where would that put the Wings in this type of situation........ "who do you guys think we will draft/would like to see drafted? Also do you think if Hudler is traded we use those picks to move up in the draft and try for a top 10? " -ben usmc "Hudler can't sign an offer sheet from another team until post July 1st. This is after the draft. So the Wings wouldn't be using any potential Hudler compensation picks to move up in this year's draft. " -rick zombo "If Hudler signed an offer sheet we would get the picks for next year. We could trade Hudler's rights and our own 1st to move up in the draft but a deal would probably have to be in place for Hudler with the team we trade up to." -wingsdiehard13 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 FLIP HAS NTC! TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT PPL! I understood Draper, Cleary, Stuart, and a couple others having NTC...but I have never heard anything about Flip having an NTC. In fact, he is one of the few players the Wings could even consider trading in this situation that has a contract over $1.5m and as far as I knew did NOT have a NTC. Speaking of which, trading Filppula (assuming I am correct about NTC status) makes more sense than dumping Hudler. Hudler's contract won't be as much as Filppula's, and Hudler fits perfectly on a line of Franzen/Hudler/Hossa. Filppula fits well in place of Hudler, but not as well because Franzen and Hossa are both very good defensively and are better shooters than playmakers; Franzen can't pass worth crap. Putting Hudler, who is a good skater with decent speed, the second best playmaker on the Wings right now and above-average defensively, between those two guys is a better option than Filppula, who is a good skater with good speed, very good defensively and a decent playmaker. Flip is a good fit, but Hudler is better. Also, it's unlikely anyone puts an offer sheet to Hudler worth more than $2m or at most $2.5m. Detroit will probably be able to keep him for less than $2m. Filppula being traded is a better return than any compensation Detroit would get for Hudler at that salary level. Assuming Hudler signs for $1.8m, Hossa returns at $6m, and Filppula is traded, and Helm is promoted to take Filppula's open roster spot...that's about $15k lower cap hit than last year for those three. The only necessary NTC move is concerning Brad Stuart, and whether he'll waive his NTC so we can get rid of him. I would rather trade Cleary than Filppula as they are similar players at similar costs (but one is much younger), but that again requires NTC being waived. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 I understood Draper, Cleary, Stuart, and a couple others having NTC...but I have never heard anything about Flip having an NTC. In fact, he is one of the few players the Wings could even consider trading in this situation that has a contract over $1.5m and as far as I knew did NOT have a NTC. Speaking of which, trading Filppula (assuming I am correct about NTC status) makes more sense than dumping Hudler. Hudler's contract won't be as much as Filppula's, and Hudler fits perfectly on a line of Franzen/Hudler/Hossa. Filppula fits well in place of Hudler, but not as well because Franzen and Hossa are both very good defensively and are better shooters than playmakers; Franzen can't pass worth crap. Putting Hudler, who is a good skater with decent speed, the second best playmaker on the Wings right now and above-average defensively, between those two guys is a better option than Filppula, who is a good skater with good speed, very good defensively and a decent playmaker. Flip is a good fit, but Hudler is better. Also, it's unlikely anyone puts an offer sheet to Hudler worth more than $2m or at most $2.5m. Detroit will probably be able to keep him for less than $2m. Filppula being traded is a better return than any compensation Detroit would get for Hudler at that salary level. Assuming Hudler signs for $1.8m, Hossa returns at $6m, and Filppula is traded, and Helm is promoted to take Filppula's open roster spot...that's about $15k lower cap hit than last year for those three. The only necessary NTC move is concerning Brad Stuart, and whether he'll waive his NTC so we can get rid of him. I would rather trade Cleary than Filppula as they are similar players at similar costs (but one is much younger), but that again requires NTC being waived. Even as I adore Fils...my God, you're a genious! (considering the NTC and all) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 A draft pick is the only benefit that I can see for losing him. We would probably get a third round pick, maybe a second but nothing more. Is that worth a Hudler??? Maybe if you are giving up the pick, but not getting it in return. If a team is willing to pay a player that salary and give up a pick for him, it is probably not a good deal for the team that was holding his rights. I'm not looking at is as straight up trade Hudler for X picks. I'm looking at the Wings as the deepest team in the league with proven NHL caliber players who have peaked in the AHL. These players can replace the likes of Hudler and Sammy much easier than replacing a Hossa, who is the type of player that only comes around once in a great while, and is especially appealing because he plays into our defensive style so well (unlike many other league superstars). Furthermore, letting Hudler walk for draft picks would (with a bit of drafting luck/skill) essentially replace the AHL stars that are replacing Hudler, and give the Wings organization one more piece to the future puzzle to work with, thus increasing our odds of staying competitive eight years from now. Its an appealing cycle: Current NHL star replaced by Current AHL star replaced by draft pick acquired from losing current NHL star (again, with luck/skill in the drafting dept). You don't get that with Sammy or Lilja or any other trade bait right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 Eva, Stuart and Cleary wont waive the NTC, nor would they even be offered up in a trade. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted June 16, 2009 I will crap a rocket if hudler gets an offer sheet from pit To play with the two best offensive centers in the league would make me very happy for him. Do it Shero! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyMountainWingGal 108 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 I see Helm as having the potential to fill-in for Filppula and... Leino as the potential Hudler replacement. Helm is a better hitter, but not as strong defensively Leino is not as good offensively, but has better size Both Filppula and Hudler will get good value from a trade - I just hope we do not lose both. Flip isn't going anywhere and I would be really pissed if he did. He's young and has more potential than Huds imo, and is bigger. Plus the Wings just signed him up last summer, plus as mentioned NTC. I wouldn't move Flip just to make room for Hossa - no way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWingsFan13 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Because huds is not physical enough Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Because huds is not physical enough - this is not a good enough answer for me......there have been better reasonings on this thread that have shed a little light on the situation and I am understanding it a bit more......I still don't want to see him go though.....he belongs with the Wings..... and I just wish people would stop saying 'Sammy & Huds"...they're not a couple...I think in the begining they were good together....but during the playoffs, I honestly think Sammy brought Huds down and it always seemed that Huds was scoring when he was on the ice w/ Z...(that may have been PP goals...but Im not going to go look through every game right now to find out for sure)...i could care less if Sammy goes.....I don't think he brings much to the table.....but then again, a lot of people don't think Huds beings a lot to the table....but he is a RFA.....sooooo that does make a difference when looking at things doesn't it....???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nev 1,085 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 These are the best numbers I can find. Don't expect to get anything better than a second, and I doubt that will happen considering the Wings are bumping their heads into the salary cap. The current expected RFA compensation table for 2008-09 is: Amount Compensation Due $863,156 or less None $863,156 - $1,307,811 3rd round pick $1,307,811 - $2,615,623 2nd round pick $2,615,623 - $3,923,434 1st and 3rd round pick $3,923,434 - $5,231,246 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick $5,231,246 - $6,539,061 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick $6,539,061 or more Four 1st round picks I think the Wings bumping against the Salary Cap is irrelvant. They're going to make him a qualifying offer, ~ 900k IIRC. After that its all about what someone is prepared to offer him. A smart GM would offer 2.5M, just under the 1+3 limit, but there are a lot of unsmart GMs out there (as we saw last summer with the crazy offers). The fact that any draft picks given up are for 2010 makes it easier for a GM to part with him - its the classic "buy now, pay later" scenario. But I agree, losing him for a 2nd is the most rational scenario. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Imagine if the Wings stockpiled draft picks -- 1) Hudler replaced by Leino for less money, plus a 1st and a 3rd round pick 2) Filppula replaced by Helm for less money, plus a 1st/2nd and a 4th 3) Conklin stays and Howard is traded for a 4th round pick Could you imagine if the Wings had 4-5 early round picks? I love Hudler and Filppula, and want them on the team -- but that would certainly lessen the sting a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Imagine if the Wings stockpiled draft picks -- 1) Hudler replaced by Leino for less money, plus a 1st and a 3rd round pick 2) Filppula replaced by Helm for less money, plus a 1st/2nd and a 4th 3) Conklin stays and Howard is traded for a 4th round pick Could you imagine if the Wings had 4-5 early round picks? I love Hudler and Filppula, and want them on the team -- but that would certainly lessen the sting a bit. I imagine that the Wings will have to do this about 7-8 years from now to balance the amount of money that the organization will have invested in 38 year old Zetterberg, Franzen, and possibly Hossa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 I imagine that the Wings will have to do this about 7-8 years from now to balance the amount of money that the organization will have invested in 38 year old Zetterberg, Franzen, and possibly Hossa I'm not as concerned about that -- in 7-8 years the cap could be anywhere from $65 to $80 million. The NHL will get a better TV deal in that time -- ratings have been great. Just need to hang in there for a couple flat to slightly down years.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T.Low 1,011 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 I like Hudler, but he's tiny and not strong on the puck...he was manhandled for the majority of this playoff run. I'm willing to let him go to get the Hossa deal done. Exactly. I love the guy. But i got tired of seeing him knocked down behind the net by relatively small hits. If there were room on the roster, I would love to keep him. But given that someone has to go,...s***, I can't get myself to committ to letting him go. While I would actually prefer to keep Huds and move Leino, we won't get the value in return for Leino. In todays salary cap world, you have to have that rotation of bringin guys up and moving players out for prospects to bring up later. I think Leino will do everything Huds can and be cheaper, but I haven't seen enough of him to know how strong he is on the puck, so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Exactly. I love the guy. But i got tired of seeing him knocked down behind the net by relatively small hits. If there were room on the roster, I would love to keep him. But given that someone has to go,...s***, I can't get myself to committ to letting him go. While I would actually prefer to keep Huds and move Leino, we won't get the value in return for Leino. In todays salary cap world, you have to have that rotation of bringin guys up and moving players out for prospects to bring up later. I think Leino will do everything Huds can and be cheaper, but I haven't seen enough of him to know how strong he is on the puck, so... From what I have seen of Leino -- he is stronger on the puck than Hudler, but has a tendancy to hold onto it too long. I love Hudler because he is quick - whether it is some Datsyukesque jukes, or a quick pass or shot, he can get things off quicker than Leino. At every level, Hudler has produced more than Leino, and they are the same age... so you are really giving up a lot. Leino goes to the net, which I really like and has great hand-eye coordination. Be nice to have both! I still think Hudler belongs with Franzen and Hossa -- as a few others have recommended as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FedorovMan91 1 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 2) Filppula replaced by Helm for less money, plus a 1st/2nd and a 4th No thanks. I like both kids and Helm performed great in the playoff but his stick handling is not even close to the ability of stick handling Filppula has. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyMountainWingGal 108 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Imagine if the Wings stockpiled draft picks -- 1) Hudler replaced by Leino for less money, plus a 1st and a 3rd round pick 2) Filppula replaced by Helm for less money, plus a 1st/2nd and a 4th 3) Conklin stays and Howard is traded for a 4th round pick Could you imagine if the Wings had 4-5 early round picks? I love Hudler and Filppula, and want them on the team -- but that would certainly lessen the sting a bit. Why do people keep bringing up trading Filppula? The Wings would have just seen what offers he got last summer and taken the picks if that were the case. The guy had a great playoffs and he's still young. How is Helm a replacement for Flip? They can both be on the team at the same time last time I checked. Baffling... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Why do people keep bringing up trading Filppula? The Wings would have just seen what offers he got last summer and taken the picks if that were the case. The guy had a great playoffs and he's still young. How is Helm a replacement for Flip? They can both be on the team at the same time last time I checked. Baffling... Both Helm and Filppula are centers and one is a lot less expensive. If you want to go after Hossa, at the very least, one of Hudler or Filppula needs to go. I would love to see our lines centered in this way: 1st: Datsyuk/Zetterberg 2nd: Hudler/Filppula 3rd: Helm 4th: Draper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StormJH1 231 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 The Hossa thing obviously impacts the decision on Hudler, but honestly, I'm not obsessing over whether or not Hossa comes back, and I doubt I'm alone. We always understood him to be a one-year addition, and then we would see what would happen afterwards. I think the presumption was that if it "worked", we'd probably win the Cup. Well, Hossa "worked" during the regular season, but now when we needed him, and we didn't win the Cup, so I think all bets are off on that one now. Most of the teams that have cap troubles are not getting into trouble because they signed one or two superstars. The worse problem to have is when you try to retain a bunch of guys who are mid-tier players, and they're basically getting raises to be treated as Top 6 forwards or Top 4 defensemen now. If you repeat that mistake many times over, not only are you in cap trouble, but you're in cap trouble that is difficult to fix without making several moves. A year ago, I was concerned about the contract we gave Filppula, but now he has emerged, and I feel like the trend amongst fans is to favor Filppula over Hudler in terms of future importance. But as long as this team is going to be carrying the contracts of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and now Franzen (and possibly Hossa), we can't also retain all our mid-level guys. It became pretty evident in the playoffs that guys like Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, and Leino are already NHL players, but were basically log-jammed into remaining with Grand Rapids last year. And the difference between those guys and Hudler is that the younger guys are on entry-level contracts at less than $1 million, whereas you'd have to think Hudler could fetch anywhere from $2 to $4 million per, depending on the situation. Let him go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 There's no way Helm can replace Filppulla. They play two completely different styles. Filppulla is a playmaker with a good offensive hockey sense, while Helm is a speedy grinder who creates his opportunities on turnovers and extended pressure. The Wings will need a combination of both if they expect to make another deep run. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
