eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Assuming the following happens: Jiri Hudler signs for $1.8m. Ville Leino signs for $1m. Tomas Kopecky signs for $575k Brett Lebda is traded for picks and/or prospects. Marian Hossa, Mikael Samuelsson, Chris Chelios, and Ty Conklin are let go as UFAs. Jimmy Howard, Leino, Darren Helm, and Jonathan Ericsson are promoted to the NHL roster. This would provide the Wings with about $500k in cap space, and a 21-man roster with 12 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goaltenders. The #7 defenseman would be Derek Meech, who doubles as the #13 forward. The defense is Nick Lidstrom, Brian Rafalski, Nik Kronwall, Brad Stuart, Ericsson, Andreas Lilja, and Meech. The regular lineup might be one of the following lineups: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Cleary/Hudler/Franzen Leino/Filppula/Kopecky Maltby/Draper/Helm Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Hudler/Filppula/Franzen Leino/Helm/Holmstrom Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Filppula/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Hudler/Zetterberg/Franzen Leino/Helm/Cleary Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Those are not bad lineups. Of course, if Hossa signs at the $6m cap hit I have been projecting, then it's basically Marian Hossa and Brett Lebda vs. Valtteri Filppula and Brad Stuart. Other realistic options to clear enough space for Hossa and maintain the 12-7-2 with Meech performing double-duty, or more players are: Trade Cleary (NTC) and Stuart (NTC). This also, due to the extra $200k from trading Cleary instead of Filppula, would allow for trading Lebda and promoting Kindl. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Assuming the following happens: Jiri Hudler signs for $1.8m. Ville Leino signs for $1m. Tomas Kopecky signs for $575k Brett Lebda is traded for picks and/or prospects. Marian Hossa, Mikael Samuelsson, Chris Chelios, and Ty Conklin are let go as UFAs. Jimmy Howard, Leino, Darren Helm, and Jonathan Ericsson are promoted to the NHL roster. This would provide the Wings with about $500k in cap space, and a 21-man roster with 12 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goaltenders. The #7 defenseman would be Derek Meech, who doubles as the #13 forward. The defense is Nick Lidstrom, Brian Rafalski, Nik Kronwall, Brad Stuart, Ericsson, Andreas Lilja, and Meech. The regular lineup might be one of the following lineups: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Cleary/Hudler/Franzen Leino/Filppula/Kopecky Maltby/Draper/Helm Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Hudler/Filppula/Franzen Leino/Helm/Holmstrom Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Filppula/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Hudler/Zetterberg/Franzen Leino/Helm/Cleary Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Those are not bad lineups. Of course, if Hossa signs at the $6m cap hit I have been projecting, then it's basically Marian Hossa and Brett Lebda vs. Valtteri Filppula and Brad Stuart. Other realistic options to clear enough space for Hossa and maintain the 12-7-2 with Meech performing double-duty, or more players are: Trade Cleary (NTC) and Stuart (NTC). This also, due to the extra $200k from trading Cleary instead of Filppula, would allow for trading Lebda and promoting Kindl. can we do it without trading Cleary....(not that I think the Wings would do that)....but seeing as how my hubby is the Cleary fan and Im the Huds fan.....that wouldn't be a good day in our house! LOL!... But except for Cleary, I like your ideas....I really like the first two sets of lines you come up with, but I dont see the Wings putting Cleary on the 3rd line......and I agree that if they have Hudler on the 3/4 lines, then he should find somewhere where they will give him at least the 2nd line....although.....I want to see him on the Wings at least for the next year! I know he could get more from another team....but I think he'd take just a small bump in pay to stay with the Wings and get another year from them and see what happens this time next year...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedFX 48 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Hudler isn't strong enough to play consistently on the third line. He can sometimes create mismatches with his speed and offensive skills. But if you put him out there against a true-grinding third line, he gets manhandled and can't get anything going offensively. On the other end, he's not strong enough to play physical defense against those kinds of lines. He'd really do best on a scoring line. So basically it's who would you most want in you're top 6: Hossa or Hudler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown_Ryan 122 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 yes we should let Hudler go he was a NO-Show in the playoffs.... Less cash for Leino ...and comp for Huddles to leave...Done..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Four Report post Posted June 17, 2009 He can't keep up with the lines that he should be playing on. He has great skill, but doesn't have the legs to skate with them and would a key player that is expendable on the team. He is a great player, and his value is great for a 3rd line man on Detroit and we could easily good draft picks for him in the long run. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Hudler isn't strong enough to play consistently on the third line. He can sometimes create mismatches with his speed and offensive skills. But if you put him out there against a true-grinding third line, he gets manhandled and can't get anything going offensively. On the other end, he's not strong enough to play physical defense against those kinds of lines. He'd really do best on a scoring line. So basically it's who would you most want in you're top 6: Hossa or Hudler. Besides Hossa's size, speed, and physical play....they were really close in the playoffs Hossa 23 GP 6G 9A 15P--- 5 10PIM 2PP 1GW only 6% shooting percent Hudler 23 GP 4G 8A 12P--- 4 6PIM 2PP 1GW 11.1% shooting percent The regular season stats are obviously in Hossa's favor, (except for shooting percentage) but Hossa also had 63PIM....63! That is too many for one player (IMO), and we all know that our power play kills were not all that hot in the playoffs...... While Hossa is ranked 5th over all for goals scored ...Hudler beats him in Assists over all and for forwards yes Hudler only shot 36 times in the playoffs, but I would think that a player such as Hossa, shooting 100 times, should make more than 6 goals......Hudler is smart enough to know that if he can't make the shot, he gets rid of it....unlike some others that just hold on to it, skate around in circles and shoot wheather they actually have a shot or not, instead of passing to someone that does.....Yes, the Wings need the big physical players, but you also have to have a couple of the smart players who aren't all "superstarred" out as well....it provides balance. I have nothing against Hossa, Id love to have them both........but assists matter -- without having players being able to pass the puck without major turnovers, there would be a lot of goals not scored. Not all our superstar players can do breakaways......we need playmakers as well as scorers...(IMO) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 yes we should let Hudler go he was a NO-Show in the playoffs.... Less cash for Leino...and comp for Huddles to leave...Done..... .......as were many other players....we've had that discussion already.... The thread was for real reasoning.....read the topic starter before answering ....this is a pretty great discussion we have going.....there is no bashing on any player in here....lets keep it that way, agreed?! If you read through, comping Hudler isn't as easy as it sounds......... #8 in points on the Wings for the playoffs --Leino had 7 games in the playoffs 7 shots and 0 goals..... is he ready to replace Hudler??? Im not sold on the idea, less money maybe....but that isn't a good enough reason I think..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Leino is nowhere near the level of Hudler -- and they are the same age. With the Griffins, and years younger, Hudler set a franchise record for assists and had 97 points in 76 games. Leino this year had 46 points in 68 games (Hudler had more in the NHL, playing much less minutes). In his previous year in the AHL, Hudler had more points (49) than Leino in 11 less games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Hudler isn't strong enough to play consistently on the third line. He can sometimes create mismatches with his speed and offensive skills. But if you put him out there against a true-grinding third line, he gets manhandled and can't get anything going offensively. On the other end, he's not strong enough to play physical defense against those kinds of lines. He'd really do best on a scoring line. So basically it's who would you most want in you're top 6: Hossa or Hudler. No team would play their grinding line against Detroit's 3rd line. Unless they wanted to give our first line free reign. Though if Hudler remains this offseason -- he should be on the second line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Leino is nowhere near the level of Hudler -- and they are the same age. With the Griffins, and years younger, Hudler set a franchise record for assists and had 97 points in 76 games. Leino this year had 46 points in 68 games (Hudler had more in the NHL, playing much less minutes). In his previous year in the AHL, Hudler had more points (49) than Leino in 11 less games. Thanks ..... I have been trying to figure out why people have continued to say Leino over Hudler, and those stats there are just more reason for others to think on that situation.......I believe Hudler is just coming into his prime at 25.....with one cup behind him and being in more than one SCF playoff series....he has the experience....people normally get better the older they get (at this age...Im not talking in their lat 30's early 40's)...better skating skills and puck handeling......and it wouldn't be that hard for him to hit the gym and "bulk up" ...lol...their are a few out there that are 5'10/5'11....just b/c Leino is bigger....doesn't make him better....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuckeyeWingsfan80 209 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Hudler isn't going to be on the 1st and 2nd lines pretty much ever as the roster currently stands. As the playoffs showed us over and over again against the Ducks and Penguins especially, the 3rd and 4th lines need to be more defensively-minded and need to be solid with the puck. Hudler, unfortunately, is neither. He's a guy who needs to be able to create plays and not have to be a go-to guy on D. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T-Ruff 47 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) At first I was of the opinion that I really didn't want to lose Hudler... but I have to say after reading this thread I feel better (not "good", but better) about potentially losing him.... I would probably remain a fan of his and like the team he goes to more so than I do now as well. If I was a GM I'd give him an offer sheet one dollar under the 1st & 3rd cut off it would be funny Edited June 17, 2009 by T-Ruff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted June 17, 2009 Thanks ..... I have been trying to figure out why people have continued to say Leino over Hudler, and those stats there are just more reason for others to think on that situation.......I believe Hudler is just coming into his prime at 25.....with one cup behind him and being in more than one SCF playoff series....he has the experience....people normally get better the older they get (at this age...Im not talking in their lat 30's early 40's)...better skating skills and puck handeling......and it wouldn't be that hard for him to hit the gym and "bulk up" ...lol...their are a few out there that are 5'10/5'11....just b/c Leino is bigger....doesn't make him better....... Why are people thinking of Leino instead of Hudler? Price. Compensation. Those are big factors, especially in the salary cap era. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soonboomer 31 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 Thanks ..... I have been trying to figure out why people have continued to say Leino over Hudler, and those stats there are just more reason for others to think on that situation.......I believe Hudler is just coming into his prime at 25.....with one cup behind him and being in more than one SCF playoff series....he has the experience....people normally get better the older they get (at this age...Im not talking in their lat 30's early 40's)...better skating skills and puck handeling......and it wouldn't be that hard for him to hit the gym and "bulk up" ...lol...their are a few out there that are 5'10/5'11....just b/c Leino is bigger....doesn't make him better....... Isn't Hudler listed at 5'9" and about 175? At this size, he's naturally weak on the puck and, unfortunately, that's only exaggerated come playoff time. That, and the RFA compensation, makes his expendability the best "business decision" for the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown12 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Thanks ..... I have been trying to figure out why people have continued to say Leino over Hudler, and those stats there are just more reason for others to think on that situation.......I believe Hudler is just coming into his prime at 25.....with one cup behind him and being in more than one SCF playoff series....he has the experience....people normally get better the older they get (at this age...Im not talking in their lat 30's early 40's)...better skating skills and puck handeling......and it wouldn't be that hard for him to hit the gym and "bulk up" ...lol...their are a few out there that are 5'10/5'11....just b/c Leino is bigger....doesn't make him better....... Leino will be cheaper for the Wings, which is big with the salary cap and the Wings will receive draft picks for letting Hudler except an offer sheet. All of these improvements that you say Hudler can make can also be made by Leino. As it stands right now, Leino is better defensively than Hudler which is an important factor in the Wings' current system. Also, Leino has shown flashes of offensive brilliance in his short stint with the Wings. It all comes down to a business decision and the Wings gain more by letting Hudler go and keeping Leino. Edited June 18, 2009 by Hockeytown12 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stiffy 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 To the OP, here are my positives on Hudler. Awesome skills, plenty of clutch plays and goals, plays very tough for his size - won't be a wussy no matter who is riding his ass, but most of all, he took the most hard assed coaching attitude from Babcock and did exactly what he needed by scoring more than anyone with very limited ice time. No Wing has earned their spot like Hudler did. Not even close. I would ask why the hell isn't Babcock that hard on other players ever? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FedorovMan91 1 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 Leino-> 1.85 meters, 6ft 1 inch 83 kg, 183 lb, 13st 1 lb Hudler-> 1.75 meters, 5ft 9 inch 83 kg, 182 lb, 13st 0 lb This is the physical appearance of two young kids. Besides, Hudler made 57 points in 82 games while Leino made 9 points in 13 games. Hudler-> 0.695 points per game Leino-> 0.692 points per game The big difference is Hudler made 82 games while Leino made only 10 games. I watched the many threads of the board but I think Leino's skill is way too over-estimated even though I want Leino over Hudler still. It reminds me how the Oilers fans expect Sam Gagne will be a skilled player. Don't expect many things from the rookie. A more proven player now is Hudler. If we don't re-sign Hossa this summer, the Wings have to catch both Hudler and Leino. The thead came up because of the position of Hossa this summer. Let me be honest. Hossa will never accept the deal of 4 million. He can get a huge salary in the team like the Canucks and the Oilers. The Oilers has wanted him since the last summer and he got an offer of 9 million. I don't expect Hossa will go to the Canucks because he must hate idiots in Vancouver. People here never hated Hudler. He was the boost for us in the first half of the season. The concern I have with him is his toughness and his size. He got destoryed by the Ducks in 06-07, and this season. For example, we know Gaborik is extremely skilled. He can score goals, passing, blah blah blah.. but what happens now? His weakness caught him up. No surprise if it happens to Hudler. Good thing was he played 82 games and showed the consistency. From my view, I think Hudler and Leino will be re-signed and Holland many let Hossa walk out if the deal does not get done betwen 4.0 to 4.7 or 4.8. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FedorovMan91 1 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 The goal exaggerated the skill of Leino: But unknown players also score some fantastic goals like this: name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>&"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /> Overall, I think Leino is extremely skilled but we never saw his full season. We will see next season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 Leino is nowhere near the level of Hudler -- and they are the same age. With the Griffins, and years younger, Hudler set a franchise record for assists and had 97 points in 76 games. Leino this year had 46 points in 68 games (Hudler had more in the NHL, playing much less minutes). In his previous year in the AHL, Hudler had more points (49) than Leino in 11 less games. It would be more accurate to compare their FIRST year in the AHL after coming from a euro-style hockey organization, due to the differences in how the game is played on a euro rink vs a NHL rink. Leino: 57 games, 46 points. Hudler: 57 games, 49 points. Keep in mind that Hudler had been playing in the AHL/NHL for 2 seasons (i.e. he was in his third) before he put up 96 points. Also keep in mind that Hudler never scored over 46 points in any season prior to his first season in the AHL. Leino had 77 points in 55 games with Jokerit. But this really isn't about production; it's about cap space. We can't afford to keep Hudler at anywhere near his real price; we have too many roster spots trying to be filled with too little money. Holland saw what Leino could do with the puck. He's much stronger on the puck, a much better winger, and much more of a physical presence than Hudler is. He may not have the same play-making ability (something that I just don't see in Hudler, regardless of what others have said in this thread), but I would argue that he does, given a 28 goal, 49 assist season with Jokerit. When Leino appears ready to go in the NHL and is a lot cheaper than Hudler (on top of getting you more draft picks), it's pretty obvious why you'd go with Leino. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 It would be more accurate to compare their FIRST year in the AHL after coming from a euro-style hockey organization, due to the differences in how the game is played on a euro rink vs a NHL rink. Leino: 57 games, 46 points. Hudler: 57 games, 49 points. Keep in mind that Hudler had been playing in the AHL/NHL for 2 seasons (i.e. he was in his third) before he put up 96 points. Also keep in mind that Hudler never scored over 46 points in any season prior to his first season in the AHL. Leino had 77 points in 55 games with Jokerit. But this really isn't about production; it's about cap space. We can't afford to keep Hudler at anywhere near his real price; we have too many roster spots trying to be filled with too little money. Holland saw what Leino could do with the puck. He's much stronger on the puck, a much better winger, and much more of a physical presence than Hudler is. He may not have the same play-making ability (something that I just don't see in Hudler, regardless of what others have said in this thread), but I would argue that he does, given a 28 goal, 49 assist season with Jokerit. When Leino appears ready to go in the NHL and is a lot cheaper than Hudler (on top of getting you more draft picks), it's pretty obvious why you'd go with Leino. That ignores age. Leino is actually older than Hudler. Hudler had 46 pts in 30 gms in the Czech Republic -- those are great numbers -- at the age of 19. He has produced and improved, consistently, at every level including the NHL. Hudler needs to give a discount, no question about it -- but he is a hell of a lot more proven than Leino. Leino needs to come real cheap to consider him over Hudler. Just like Hossa needs to give a juicy discount if he is to be considered over losing a lot of depth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) That ignores age. Leino is actually older than Hudler. Hudler had 46 pts in 30 gms in the Czech Republic -- those are great numbers -- at the age of 19. He has produced and improved, consistently, at every level including the NHL. Hudler needs to give a discount, no question about it -- but he is a hell of a lot more proven than Leino. Leino needs to come real cheap to consider him over Hudler. Just like Hossa needs to give a juicy discount if he is to be considered over losing a lot of depth. 3 NHL seasons is hardly "a hell of a lot more proven than Leino". Regardless, Leino is much cheaper than Hudler will be, thus we don't need to have a discussion about it. Leino will be sub-$1 mil, Hudler will be $2-3 mil. That we can also get draft picks from getting rid of Hudler, getting a guy that can at least compete with Hudler's place on the team, will take less money, etc, points to us getting rid of Hudler and taking Leino. You also leave out that Leino is ~4" taller than Hudler, making him immensely more attractive for any line that we would normally use Hudler on, as the physical aspect of the game ramps up in the playoffs. An elbow shot that would normally hit Hudler in the forehead would hit Leino in the jaw. Edit: It really also comes down to us not having space on the first 2 lines for Hudler. With Dats/Zata/Homer/Franzen/Filppula, that leaves one spot open. If we take Hudler, he HAS to stay in that 6th spot, as he's near-useless on grinding lines. If we pick up Hossa, then Franzen is a 3rd liner, or you have Filppula on 3rd line and Helm back in GR, which is something that we shouldn't do. Leino has proved that he can be effective playing on a grind line in the NHL, where Hudler has proved nothing of the sort (in fact, the complete opposite). Edited June 18, 2009 by Theophany Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown12 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) That ignores age. Leino is actually older than Hudler. Hudler had 46 pts in 30 gms in the Czech Republic -- those are great numbers -- at the age of 19. He has produced and improved, consistently, at every level including the NHL. Hudler needs to give a discount, no question about it -- but he is a hell of a lot more proven than Leino. Leino needs to come real cheap to consider him over Hudler. Just like Hossa needs to give a juicy discount if he is to be considered over losing a lot of depth. Leino will probably sign for around the league minimum which is definitely a lot cheaper than Hudler. Also, the Red Wings would not be losing a lot of depth if Hossa stayed. The Wings are gaining players like Leino, Helm and Abs and losing players like Hudler and Sammy. In many ways the Wings gain players that are similar or better than the players they are losing. Edited June 18, 2009 by Hockeytown12 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 3 NHL seasons is hardly "a hell of a lot more proven than Leino". Regardless, Leino is much cheaper than Hudler will be, thus we don't need to have a discussion about it. Leino will be sub-$1 mil, Hudler will be $2-3 mil. That we can also get draft picks from getting rid of Hudler, getting a guy that can at least compete with Hudler's place on the team, will take less money, etc, points to us getting rid of Hudler and taking Leino. You also leave out that Leino is ~4" taller than Hudler, making him immensely more attractive for any line that we would normally use Hudler on, as the physical aspect of the game ramps up in the playoffs. An elbow shot that would normally hit Hudler in the forehead would hit Leino in the jaw. Edit: It really also comes down to us not having space on the first 2 lines for Hudler. With Dats/Zata/Homer/Franzen/Filppula, that leaves one spot open. If we take Hudler, he HAS to stay in that 6th spot, as he's near-useless on grinding lines. If we pick up Hossa, then Franzen is a 3rd liner, or you have Filppula on 3rd line and Helm back in GR, which is something that we shouldn't do. Leino has proved that he can be effective playing on a grind line in the NHL, where Hudler has proved nothing of the sort (in fact, the complete opposite). 3 seasons (improving from 25 pts to 42 pts to 57 pts is a "hell of a lot more proven" than Leino's 9 pts in 13 gms. See also the AHL. Leino signed a one-year deal for $875k -- now did you think he was going to sign for less than that? I'm not sure where anyone is getting Leino is better than Hudler defensively... they both have a lot to work on, by Detroit's standards. Finally - Leino has 4 inches, yes, but 1 whole pound. Datsyuk was knocked around a lot early in his career... Hudler has hope. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 3 seasons (improving from 25 pts to 42 pts to 57 pts is a "hell of a lot more proven" than Leino's 9 pts in 13 gms. See also the AHL. Leino signed a one-year deal for $875k -- now did you think he was going to sign for less than that? I'm not sure where anyone is getting Leino is better than Hudler defensively... they both have a lot to work on, by Detroit's standards. Finally - Leino has 4 inches, yes, but 1 whole pound. Datsyuk was knocked around a lot early in his career... Hudler has hope. Dats is 2 inches taller than Hudler and 2 inches shorter than Leino. Also, having seen Hudler compared to some other guys, I'd say he's more 5'7" or 5'8". They're being generous giving him 5'9". Either way, I'm not saying Hudler is worthless, just that the pros of giving him up outweigh the cons of keeping him. I'd love to keep him. Unfortunately, though, we're trying to win Cups, and in a salary cap era, a team needs to be run like a business in order to win Cups. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown_Ryan 122 Report post Posted June 18, 2009 .......as were many other players....we've had that discussion already.... The thread was for real reasoning.....read the topic starter before answering ....this is a pretty great discussion we have going.....there is no bashing on any player in here....lets keep it that way, agreed?! If you read through, comping Hudler isn't as easy as it sounds......... #8 in points on the Wings for the playoffs --Leino had 7 games in the playoffs 7 shots and 0 goals..... is he ready to replace Hudler??? Im not sold on the idea, less money maybe....but that isn't a good enough reason I think..... im not really sure you can "REPLACE" exactly what Hudler brings... But to say that Im bashing him is a little much.... I love the Guy and wish THIS EXACT team could stay together... but as the reality sets in it is hard to imagine that HE is one of the ones to go...Maybe.. He has Pros and Cons like all other players.. I dont think he has reched his FULL potential, but Im a fan, Not a coach.. I know his size is a issue...But Dino wasnt much bigger and he battled all the time.... Hudler is a Asset to any team I hope he stays.. But this is the business they've chosen..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
