Interesting Datsyuk Stat

[Wingfan24 0]

I added up most points per ice time ratio this year and if datsyuk got as much time as Ovechkin he would have produced 113pts this year and if he got as much time as malkin he would have produced 115pts even with his outstanding defensive play.

Datsyuk - 3.73 pts/hr on ice

Malkin - 3.67 pts/hr on ice

Ovechkin - 3.63 pts/hr on ice

This just proves more on how Datsyuk is the best Player in the NHL

BTW i did this by points/total ice time this seasonX60= points/hour of ice time

[Zetts 236]

I really don't want to be the one to do this, but it has to be said.

Playoffs

Datsyuk 98 games, 63 points 0.64 points/game

Ovechkin 21 games, 30 points 1.43 points/game

Malkin 49 games, 62 points 1.27 points/game

Datsyuk is amazing, and one of my favorite players, I'm not hating on him. But no, he is not better than Malkin or Ovechkin (offensively anyways, since that's what this thread is about).

[FireCaptain 563]

and.....

/thread

[Snazzy 0]

I really don't want to be the one to do this, but it has to be said.

Playoffs

Datsyuk 98 games, 63 points 0.64 points/game

Ovechkin 21 games, 30 points 1.43 points/game

Malkin 49 games, 62 points 1.27 points/game

Datsyuk is amazing, and one of my favorite players, I'm not hating on him. But no, he is not better than Malkin or Ovechkin (offensively anyways, since that's what this thread is about).

Yet Datsyuk still has the best +/- out of those players.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Yet Datsyuk still has the best +/- out of those players.

You mean the same Pavel Datsyuk that just won his second consecutive Selke award given to the top defensive forward in the league?

That Pavel Datsyuk. I'll take him any day over Malkin or Ovie.

[Zetts 236]

Yet Datsyuk still has the best +/- out of those players.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, Datsyuk is MUCH better defensively, as his two Selkes show. But this thread was created about offense.

I figured I'd look up the +/- bit though, so lets go with that argument for a moment.

Admittedly, +/- per game is a bit of a contrived stat, but you have to take into account the number of games played somehow.

So, again, playoffs:

Datsyuk: 98 games, +19 0.19/game

Malkin: 49 games, +5 0.10/game

Ovechkin: 21 games, +9 0.43/game

I don't really want to make this argument AGAINST one of my favourite players, but we have to be realistic. Ovechkin still has Datsyuk beat in both categories.

As for Malkin, I don't think that his +/- which is worse by 0.09 drags him down that much when he's pretty much double Datsyuk's points per game. (Remember, power play goals don't affect +/-, so Malkin's inferior +/- doesn't necessarily mean he was on the ice for more goals against, just perhaps that a couple more of his points came on the powerplay).

[Wingfan24 0]

Don't get me wrong, I agree, Datsyuk is MUCH better defensively, as his two Selkes show. But this thread was created about offense.

I figured I'd look up the +/- bit though, so lets go with that argument for a moment.

Admittedly, +/- per game is a bit of a contrived stat, but you have to take into account the number of games played somehow.

So, again, playoffs:

Datsyuk: 98 games, +19 0.19/game

Malkin: 49 games, +5 0.10/game

Ovechkin: 21 games, +9 0.43/game

I don't really want to make this argument AGAINST one of my favourite players, but we have to be realistic. Ovechkin still has Datsyuk beat in both categories.

As for Malkin, I don't think that his +/- which is worse by 0.09 drags him down that much when he's pretty much double Datsyuk's points per game. (Remember, power play goals don't affect +/-, so Malkin's inferior +/- doesn't necessarily mean he was on the ice for more goals against, just perhaps that a couple more of his points came on the powerplay).

I'm making thismore ot prove how hes the best player in the NHL for sure i'd tather have ovechkin and malkin offensively

[egroen 384]

I added up most points per ice time ratio this year and if datsyuk got as much time as Ovechkin he would have produced 113pts this year and if he got as much time as malkin he would have produced 115pts even with his outstanding defensive play.

Datsyuk - 3.73 pts/hr on ice

Malkin - 3.67 pts/hr on ice

Ovechkin - 3.63 pts/hr on ice

This just proves more on how Datsyuk is the best Player in the NHL

BTW i did this by points/total ice time this seasonX60= points/hour of ice time

If you want to get more detailed -- look at PP time and scoring, and the ball lands firmly in Datsyuk's court.

He is more efficient on the power play than those guys by quite a bit, but they get 3 minutes PP time extra per game.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Keep in mind that a chunk of Datsyuk's minutes are spent killing penalties, while Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin tend to get more powerplay time and less-to-no PK time.

[tommingthepuck96 1]

Keep in mind that a chunk of Datsyuk's minutes are spent killing penalties, while Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin tend to get more powerplay time and less-to-no PK time.

Beat me too it, ovechkin and malkin both play the full 2 minutes on every power play, and also D0 not kill penaltys at all.

All stats aside though i still think ovechkin as a slight edge over datsyuk offensively. Maybe its the s***ty eastern conferfence defense or maybe not, but ovechkin has that offensive spark that datsyuk, nor any other player has.

Edited June 19, 2009 by tommingthepuck96

[egroen 384]

All stats aside though i still think ovechkin as a slight edge over datsyuk offensively. Maybe its the s***ty eastern conferfence defense or maybe not, but ovechkin has that offensive spark that datsyuk, nor any other player has.

Yeah, this is really only statistical masturbation and Datsyuk would never be recognized for it until he actually put up the numbers (like they admittedly have). The fact is, the Wings are not going over to the Eastern Conference and Babcock is going to continue to play his minutes in a similar fashion to those guys.

[Zetts 236]

If you want to get more detailed -- look at PP time and scoring, and the ball lands firmly in Datsyuk's court.

He is more efficient on the power play than those guys by quite a bit, but they get 3 minutes PP time extra per game.

Datsyuk had an amazing season. Pretty much identical to the season before actually.

He is very effective with his time, and yes he does kill penalties more than the other two.

But this:

This just proves more on how Datsyuk is the best Player in the NHL

is what I disagree with. I'm sorry, but really, for the playoffs

Datsyuk 98 games, 63 points 0.64 points/game

Ovechkin 21 games, 30 points 1.43 points/game

Malkin 49 games, 62 points 1.27 points/game

That's an astronomical difference when it matters most.

I hate projections, as far as "if Datsyuk had more time...". Points do not go up linearly with ice time. Even if they did, for the playoffs, there's no chance he's making up that sort of point differential.

As far as his superior defensive play, it really becomes entirely subjective. Is he that much better than the other two defensively to make up for that sort of point differential?

Presumably if OV and Malkin were only scoring on the powerplay and were weak defensively, their +/- wouldn't be great. However, as I've already shown, Malkin's +/- per game is similar, and Ovechkin blows them both out of the water.

I love Datsyuk, but there's a reason you don't hear the Joe chanting "MVP!" for him. He's really really good, but he doesn't control games as often or as fully as the other two.

Edit: egroen, I wrote that before I saw your last post. Agreed on those comments.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Zetts

[tommingthepuck96 1]

Would be interesting if caps and wings could meet up in SC final. Would like to see what OV could do with zetterberg constantly right behind him, and the best defensmen in the world constantly in front of him. Actually i better be careful what i wish for.

Edited June 19, 2009 by tommingthepuck96

[eva unit zero 271]

This is where I always complain. Zetterberg IMHO is the best defensive forward in the league, but will not get credit for it unless he puts up scoring numbers similar to what Dats does.

The more defense you play against the better players will usually reduce the offensive numbers you play. Datsyuk plays excellent defense, but Zetterberg is the team's primary defensive center and should be the one with two consecutive Selkes.

If Datsyuk played more like Ovechkin or Malkin, he'd be the Ross winner, but wouldn't even be considered for the Selke.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Malkin plays the whole powerplay, no penalty kill, and is a big freaking Lurch. I wouldnt ever want that idiot on my team. Even though Ovechkin urks me with some of the stunts he pulls, he's still a hell of a hockey player. Would love to have him, if it came at the expense of Dats, I'd maybe be inclined to do it, but I'm content having Pavel. He's really turned himself into a player.

[Kira 451]

They say there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics. You can make them say anything you want.

I look at the intangibles as well as what they do out there on the ice. Given all that, I'd take Pasha in a minute. I think he has a more well-rounded game. I want someone who can play even strength, the power play and the penalty kill - all without being a detriment to the team. That is what I believe we have in Pasha. The others may score more goals, but I'll take the well rounded game any night of the week.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

This is where I always complain. Zetterberg IMHO is the best defensive forward in the league, but will not get credit for it unless he puts up scoring numbers similar to what Dats does.

The more defense you play against the better players will usually reduce the offensive numbers you play. Datsyuk plays excellent defense, but Zetterberg is the team's primary defensive center and should be the one with two consecutive Selkes.

If Datsyuk played more like Ovechkin or Malkin, he'd be the Ross winner, but wouldn't even be considered for the Selke.

False. I agree Zetterberg is the best defensive forward in the league, but the reason Zetterberg doesn't get as much credit as Datsyuk does is NOT because of points - its because Zetterberg is to the Selke as Lidstom was to the Norris earlier in his career.

Lidstrom, like Zetterberg, is not a flashy defenseman in terms of defense, and thats precisely the reason why it took a long time for people to realize how great Lidstrom is defensively. He wasn't Scott Stevens, Chris Pronger, or Chris Chelios, and that cost him a Norris or two in the early going. He wasn't throwing big hits, making dirty plays, or running his mouth. He was simply going about his business quietly.

Same thing with Hank. Hank goes about the defensive end of things quietly, and positionally. Hes always in the right place, and always there at the right time. Datsyuk, on the other hand, goes about his defense in the same flashy mode as the Prongers and Chelis, but instead of big hits and thunderous checks, Datsyuk calls attention to himself how? Takeaways. Thats the #1 reason Datsyuk is cited for being so great defensively - stripping the puck of an opposing player and taking off. That, in it of itself, gets noticed. Hanks defensive play, however, is bare bones. Its strong, yet simple. But like Lidstrom, Hank is slowly getting more and more notice for his supreme checking abilities.

I would wager that Hank gets a nominee next year, simply because his defensive work has been impossible to ignore on the biggest stage in the NHL - the Stanley Cup Finals. Just as Lidstrom started his Norris dominance at a ripe 32, Hank is primed to do the same, at a similar age.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

False. I agree Zetterberg is the best defensive forward in the league, but the reason Zetterberg doesn't get as much credit as Datsyuk does is NOT because of points - its because Zetterberg is to the Selke as Lidstom was to the Norris earlier in his career.

Lidstrom, like Zetterberg, is not a flashy defenseman in terms of defense, and thats precisely the reason why it took a long time for people to realize how great Lidstrom is defensively. He wasn't Scott Stevens, Chris Pronger, or Chris Chelios, and that cost him a Norris or two in the early going. He wasn't throwing big hits, making dirty plays, or running his mouth. He was simply going about his business quietly.

Same thing with Hank. Hank goes about the defensive end of things quietly, and positionally. Hes always in the right place, and always there at the right time. Datsyuk, on the other hand, goes about his defense in the same flashy mode as the Prongers and Chelis, but instead of big hits and thunderous checks, Datsyuk calls attention to himself how? Takeaways. Thats the #1 reason Datsyuk is cited for being so great defensively - stripping the puck of an opposing player and taking off. That, in it of itself, gets noticed. Hanks defensive play, however, is bare bones. Its strong, yet simple. But like Lidstrom, Hank is slowly getting more and more notice for his supreme checking abilities.

I would wager that Hank gets a nominee next year, simply because his defensive work has been impossible to ignore on the biggest stage in the NHL - the Stanley Cup Finals. Just as Lidstrom started his Norris dominance at a ripe 32, Hank is primed to do the same, at a similar age.

well said. zetterberg got a nomination 2 years ago and was beat out by dats, but his selke's are on the horizon. z plays alot like yzerman in his late 20's, once he really learned the 2 way game.

[hankzet40 233]

Not to take away anything away from Pav but Hank should have won it last year. The fact that Richards almost won it this year (due to SH goals) says it all about what the voters look for.

[dicksmack 33]

Waaaaaaah... Datsyuk isn't even the best defensive forward on his team... Double Selke's beg to differ.

[steveyzerman 0]

Your playoff stat is skewed because Pavels played more seasons than the other guys & was not on the ice as much back then. Where as his only stretched across this season making it more accurate.

Pavel FTW.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I really don't want to be the one to do this, but it has to be said.

Playoffs

Datsyuk 98 games, 63 points 0.64 points/game

Ovechkin 21 games, 30 points 1.43 points/game

Malkin 49 games, 62 points 1.27 points/game

Datsyuk is amazing, and one of my favorite players, I'm not hating on him. But no, he is not better than Malkin or Ovechkin (offensively anyways, since that's what this thread is about).

You realize Datsyuk's stats are seriously skewed when you figure he played on the fourth line in 2002 and played against Conn Smyth winning Giguere in 2003.

That's a big deal.

[Zetts 236]

You realize Datsyuk's stats are seriously skewed when you figure he played on the fourth line in 2002 and played against Conn Smyth winning Giguere in 2003.

That's a big deal.

Perhaps you should have done some research. Before I say this, the argument that he played against a good goalie one year is ridiculous. He's an elite player. A good goalie is no excuse. But just to prevent this from getting bogged down in an argument about that, ok, lets do it your way and take out those first two years.

2004: 6 points in 12 games

2005: lockout

2006: 3 points in 5 games

2007: 16 points in 18 games

2008: 23 points in 22 games

2009: 9 points in 16 games

Points per game average: 0.781

Is there another way you want to try to skew the stats to TRY to get his points per game in the playoffs on par with Ovechkin and Malkin? Because that one didn't work.

[Zetts 236]

Your playoff stat is skewed because Pavels played more seasons than the other guys & was not on the ice as much back then. Where as his only stretched across this season making it more accurate.

Pavel FTW.

I'm sorry, I will always take playoff stats as being more important. Particularly when the regular season stats are so close and the playoff stats are so radically different.

And his stats were also for the regular season. Since this year is more accurate, should we compile those stats for the playoffs this year? I didn't think so. Even before ANY known injury, Datsyuk's points per game wasn't too hot in the playoffs this year. And of course, for convenience we're going to ignore both Ovechkin's pulled groin and wrist injury, right?

Once again, I love Datsyuk, but some people need to take off the rose coloured glasses.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Zetts

[eva unit zero 271]

Datsyuk, Ovechkin, and Malkin are all great players. They are all within the five best forwards in the NHL. So to try and skew and twist numbers and justify why the numbers don't say what you want them to say is silly.