If You Think Hudler's NOT worth $3 Million...

[Dominator2005 558]

Huh?

Filppula:

06-07___07-08___08-09

10 G____19 G____12 G

17 pts___36 pts__40 pts

Hudler:

06-07___07-08___08-09

15 G____13 G____23 G

25 pts___42 pts__57 pts

Interesting interpretation of dropping stocks. One player managed to increase his points total by less than 10% and the other by more than 30%. Which one's stock stayed the same? Hudler? Oh really? I guess since his playoff scoring totals on the 3rd line weren't stellar (although they were among the top 6 forwards) and Val had a surprising outburst, the more consistent, higher scoring of the two is suddenly a lame horse? Don't go shooting Datsyuk then.

Can't compare these 2 players, Hudler is getting more PP minutes than Flip and Flip is getting more PK minutes... They are not used the same way...

[Dominator2005 558]

It's pretty rare for a player to walk into arbitration and get triple his old salary or more in situations like this.

I don't see this Hudler situation being a big deal right now as it looks like Hossa's a long shot to sign here. If Hossa goes we keep Hudler. Worst case the Wings trade him for a similar high end scoring prospect.

Hudler's already almost hit the 60pt plateau in his third season, it's reasonable to say he could hit 70 next season.

To say he's plateaued as a 3rd year player (not that you did, another poster said it) is ludicrous when he's consistently increased his point totals and now his goal totals from one year to the next all without seeing increased ice time.

There is no need to trade Hudler, he's RFA, Holland qualify offer, we just need to wait that someone (Edmonton) throw $3M or more to him and we get draft picks and that's it...

[Drake_Marcus 890]

There is no need to trade Hudler, he's RFA, Holland qualify offer, we just need to wait that someone (Edmonton) throw $3M or more to him and we get draft picks and that's it...

I'm aware fo how the RFA system works

My trade comment was more relating to how the Wings would deal with him if there aren't rumblings about teams planing on throwing a large offer at him.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Can't compare these 2 players, Hudler is getting more PP minutes than Flip and Flip is getting more PK minutes... They are not used the same way...

You definitely can compare them overall because Filppula gets WAY more minutes than Hudler, which makes up for the special teams differences. Moreover, in the context of what I was responding to the numbers I quoted made sense.

[Dominator2005 558]

You definitely can compare them overall because Filppula gets WAY more minutes than Hudler, which makes up for the special teams differences. Moreover, in the context of what I was responding to the numbers I quoted made sense.

Don't get me wrong - I think that Hudler is quality player BUT if you need to keep one of them (Hudler vs. Flip) I have to go with Flip, and YES you are RIGHT 100% Flip is OVERPAID BUT no need to overpay for Hudler.

[Probie 7]

With this kind of compensation we could move up in this year's draft and pick KASSIAN

Its good in theory, and I like the idea myself but it cant happen. The soonest a team can sign Huds is the 26th of this month, the sa,e day as the draft, and the process wont get done in one day, we cant move up in this years draft and get picks from Huds....the picks come from the next years draft. Check out the blurb below and the site it came from for more info. I so want to do what you have suggested. What sucks for us is, if a team signs him for say "$2,615,622", we only get a 2nd and third, and if we match, then our cap is hurt right, so you cant get out of the cap issue of his now bigger contract by trading him, you have to wait a full year after you match his RFA offersheet proposal before we trade him. Teams could get away with taking him for a 2nd and a third most likely, and we have nothing to show for it except picks from next years draft.

-- WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A PLAYER SIGNS AN OFFER SHEET?

Once a player signs an offer sheet, the team ("New Team") giving the offer will submit it to Central Registry and must also notify the player's original team ("Prior Team") of the offer sheet. The Prior Team has seven (7) days from the date it receives the offer sheet to choose whether to accept the terms of the offer sheet or decline. If they choose to accept, then the salary, signing bonuses (if any), and reporting bonuses (if any) in the Offer Sheet become a binding SPC on both the Prior Team and the player. If they decline, then all of the terms specified in the Offer Sheet become binding on the New Team and the player and the Prior Team receives compensation from the New Team as set forth below.

-- CAN THE PRIOR TEAM TRADE THE PLAYER'S RIGHTS IF HE SIGNS AN OFFER SHEET?

NO! From Article 10.3(a),

Once an Offer Sheet for a Restricted Free Agent has been received by the Prior Club, the Prior Club may not Trade or otherwise Assign its Right of First Refusal for such Restricted Free Agent.

-- IF THE TEAM MATCHES, CAN THEY TURN AROUND AND TRADE THE PLAYER?

Again, no. From Article 10.3(b),

The Prior Club may not Trade that Restricted Free Agent for a period of one year from the date it exercises its Right of First Refusal.

...

From Article 10.4,

-- Clubs owing one (1) draft selection must have it available in the next draft.

Taken from:

NHLSCAP

Edited June 24, 2009 by Probie

[LeftWinger 5,130]

Its good in theory, and I like the idea myself but it cant happen. The soonest a team can sign Huds is the 26th of this month, the sa,e day as the draft, and the process wont get done in one day, we cant move up in this years draft and get picks from Huds....the picks come from the next years draft. Check out the blurb below and the site it came from for more info. I so want to do what you have suggested. What sucks for us is, if a team signs him for say "$2,615,622", we only get a 2nd and third, and if we match, then our cap is hurt right, so you cant get out of the cap issue of his now bigger contract by trading him, you have to wait a full year after you match his RFA offersheet proposal before we trade him. Teams could get away with taking him for a 2nd and a third most likely, and we have nothing to show for it except picks from next years draft.

Taken from:

NHLSCAP

I'd take a 2nd and 3rd for him as well. That'll be (if Detroit still has their own picks) two 2nds and two 3rds, and with Detroit's drafting history, that would be like gold.... Especially if it's a Colorado or Islander draft pick next year, VERY early 2nd and 3rd!

[Dominator2005 558]

Its good in theory, and I like the idea myself but it cant happen. The soonest a team can sign Huds is the 26th of this month, the sa,e day as the draft, and the process wont get done in one day, we cant move up in this years draft and get picks from Huds....the picks come from the next years draft. Check out the blurb below and the site it came from for more info. I so want to do what you have suggested. What sucks for us is, if a team signs him for say "$2,615,622", we only get a 2nd and third, and if we match, then our cap is hurt right, so you cant get out of the cap issue of his now bigger contract by trading him, you have to wait a full year after you match his RFA offersheet proposal before we trade him. Teams could get away with taking him for a 2nd and a third most likely, and we have nothing to show for it except picks from next years draft.

Taken from:

NHLSCAP

I may be wrong but 2010 draft is supposed to be very deep (in talent)?!

[Probie 7]

I may be wrong but 2010 draft is supposed to be very deep (in talent)?!

If Huds signs that offer sheet, I hope it is. I searched for any info, and only found a blogger and a couple of forum posters talking about next years draft being comparable to this years draft, but thats not good sources of info IMO. Without spending more time searching using diff methods cause the search engine didnt return much, I cant say it will be as good. I heard the top ten is quite good. According to the scouts this years is the best in 6 years, read the article below its a good read, I found it doing the searc I just mentioned above:

Wings assistant GM Nill marvels at depth of NHL draft

Comparable to 2003 gold-standard lottery

By Dave Waddell, Canwest News ServiceJune 17, 2009

DETROIT — For Detroit Red Wings assistant general manager Jim Nill, next weekend's National Hockey League entry draft is going to be a little different and it's not just because he'll get to make a pick in the first three rounds.

Instead of hoping Detroit can nab a good player with the 29th pick overall, Nill knows there'll be a good player available for the Wings.

"It's a very strong draft," said Nill, who oversees the Wings' drafting and scouting departments. "Every draft always has 10 to 12 high-end talents early.

"This year there's lots of depth from 15 through 35. There's lot of real good players in there. You could toss the players that'll go 15 to 35 up in the air and take one because they have just as good a chance to become solid NHLers as anyone else."

The draft is so good, Nill compares it the 2003 draft. That draft has become the gold standard by which all drafts are measured.

Among the talents taken that year were Marc-Andre Fleury (1), Eric Staal (2), Thomas Vanek (5), Ryan Suter (7), Dion Phaneuf (9), Jeff Carter (11), Dustin Brown (13), Brent Seabrook (14), Robert Nilsson (15), Zach Parise (17), Ryan Getzlaf (19), Brent Burns (20), Ryan Kesler (23), Mike Richards (24), Corey Perry (28), Loui Eriksson (33), Patrice Bergeron (45) and Shea Weber (49).

"That was one of best drafts ever," Nill said. "This one has depth like that.

"Still, no matter who we pick, it's going to be three to five years before you see them in Detroit."

Nill said there's a possibility the Wings could move up or down in the draft.

The only round of the nine the Wings will be without a pick in is the fourth. That goes to Los Angeles as part of the February 2008 trade for defenceman Brad Stuart.

"Someone has to be there you like and you have to have a dance partner," Nill said. "There's lots of talk already.

"But you never know until the day arrives. Some years, I thought there'd be nothing and there's 20 trades. Other years, you expect a lot of trades and nothing happens."

Nill said all things being equal, he expects the Wings to select a defenceman early. It's the position the Wings value above all else.

"You can never have enough defencemen," Nill said. "For sure, we'll draft a defenceman in either Round 1 or 2.

"We already have a pretty good stock of defencemen, but we're thinking there might be someone there we never thought would be there like when Jiri Fischer fell to us (25th overall in 1998)."

Nill said the Wings have no real glaring shortages in their minor league system after shoring up the goaltending position by taking Thomas McCollum with their first pick last June and signing free-agent goalie Jordan Pearce out of Notre Dame this spring.

"We really do have balanced depth in our organization right now," Nill said. "We're always greedy guys, though. We don't want a break in that talent pipeline.

"I think the playoffs showed how deep we are at forward. We have a lot of good kids. We were very happy with what we saw in the minors last season."

Edited June 24, 2009 by Probie

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Filppula's stock has continued to rise while Hudler's has stayed, by and large, the same. Hudler is an inconsistent scoring forward. He cannot play any form of physical game, nor is he a capable defensive forward in any sense of the term. He does not skate well, he is not especially good along the boards, and he often seems to be putting forth less than his maximum effort.

Filppula has untapped offensive potential; he can play a physical game; he is developing into a skilled two-way forward; he plays on the penalty kill; and he's a great skater and a fairly good puckhandler. Further, he has been constantly improving over the last several seasons. Hudler, in contrast, seems to have plateaued. This makes sense, given his lack of defensive acumen and given his physical limits in the offensive zone.

Stats don't tell the whole story. Too, being a one-dimensional player drastically reduces a player's salary range.

^^^ This.

Filppula is better than Hudler today and has far more potential. I'm not sure how some people cannot see this?

We all like Jiri Hudler - but he is not worth 3 mill on the Wings. No way. Just a reality.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I may be wrong but 2010 draft is supposed to be very deep (in talent)?!

The 2010 has good headliners (Taylor Hall and Kirill Kabanov) but I have no clue what the depth's like. I haven't read much about it.

The hockey news said that the 2011 draft is "already making scouts cringe", comparing it to the terrible, terrible 1999 draft (where Zetterberg was the only superstar taken, and he was passed over more than 200 times before we snagged him, although some might argue that the Sedins are stars, they're not superstars).

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Its good in theory, and I like the idea myself but it cant happen. The soonest a team can sign Huds is the 26th of this month, the sa,e day as the draft, and the process wont get done in one day, we cant move up in this years draft and get picks from Huds....the picks come from the next years draft. Check out the blurb below and the site it came from for more info. I so want to do what you have suggested. What sucks for us is, if a team signs him for say "$2,615,622", we only get a 2nd and third, and if we match, then our cap is hurt right, so you cant get out of the cap issue of his now bigger contract by trading him, you have to wait a full year after you match his RFA offersheet proposal before we trade him. Teams could get away with taking him for a 2nd and a third most likely, and we have nothing to show for it except picks from next years draft.

Taken from:

NHLSCAP

If someone offers Hudler 2.6 million for a reasonable term I'd expect the Wings to match it unless it's a team whose 2nd and 3rd rounders are expected to be absurdly high.

[Motown4013 350]

So you think he's going to make a 50% increase in his points output because he's added to the PP?

A 50% increase in production from one season to another is a HUGE jump. Huge.

I didnt say it would be the only factor...but it will definately be a factor. Confidence is a wonderful thing and we saw Flip come into his own. I mean look at Hossa...he was shooting the puck with no confidence and he ended up being a bust in the playoffs. Flip will be a better player next year and he is absolutely able to be a 60 pt guy on this team.

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

Hudler is not worth 3 million..

thanks try again.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I didnt say it would be the only factor...but it will definately be a factor. Confidence is a wonderful thing and we saw Flip come into his own. I mean look at Hossa...he was shooting the puck with no confidence and he ended up being a bust in the playoffs. Flip will be a better player next year and he is absolutely able to be a 60 pt guy on this team.

We saw Flip come into his own in 07-08 only to be our worst forward in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs. Confidence is great but in the long run it fizzles out. We've yet to see Filppula put together an 82 game season where he was among the top 6 Red Wings in scoring. I'm sure he's going to be a fantastically usefull player on this team in the future, I'm just not seeing the shot, shot selection or hands you need to be a star player in this league. Val does everything very well except when it comes to his offensive instincts. His shot is terrible, but his passing good (not fantastic, but definitely good) and his ability to hang onto and control the puck is excellent. He'll be able to put up more points this year, but I don't see him exceeding 50-55pts, sorry. Not unless he discovers a scoring touch. I'd be happy to see him break 60pts, though- don't get me wrong, he's still a Wing so I want him to succeed.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Hudler is not worth 3 million..

thanks try again.

We get it- you hate Hudler because he's short and european. That doesn't make your opinions regarding him any more correct, though. We're all aware that you loathe him for being so short and not checking.

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

We get it- you hate Hudler because he's short and european. That doesn't make your opinions regarding him any more correct, though. We're all aware that you loathe him for being so short and not checking.

We get it- you like to overreact on every little thing that is said.

[gcom007 1,465]

I guess it's all a matter of opinion, but you won't be talking s*** about Flip when he's our next Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Flip's in the current situation where he's unfortunately working on the PK instead of the PP. Why don't I see Hudler on the PK?

:lol:

Ridiculous. I am not a Flip hater. I'm a Flip realist. He will never even come close to touching Datsyuk/Zetterberg status.

You can say what you want to disagree, but I'm usually right. I've called every major turning point among Wings players right for a long while. If you search, there's plenty of evidence to support it. I rarely agree with the masses here yet time and time again, the masses are usually wrong. They're emotional. They're a mass of sheep. That's not how I think. Hype means nothing to me.

I know two things better than anything else in this world: music and hockey. I don't know s*** about a lot of other stuff, but I know a lot about hockey and music. I've got a good sense for both and plenty of logic and knowledge to balance it out. That's why I rolled off everyone hating on Osgood throughout the regular season and said over and over "quote me on it in June." That's why I said last year in January (maybe even earlier...) "look for Franzen to become a major impact player heading into the playoffs." Look it up. There's plenty more too.

That's why I'm saying again now, Flip is about 10 points shy of his peak. He's good for a few 50 point seasons but he's never going to do much more. He doesn't have the fire to finish plays and make plays appear out of thin air on a consistent basis like the true stars do. Now, to be fair, that's plenty fine. It's not as if he's wildly overpaid compared to what he'd get on another team. And I certainly appreciate guys like him in a lineup. They're good guys. They're solid. They're safe.

But are they superstars?

Are they even just plain old stars???

Absolutely not.

Guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Hossa are and always have been on another planet in terms of ability. Even in their early years, especially with Datsyuk (who I think is the best player of the 3), it was clear as day that these guys were going to be superstars. Aside from all the technical elements to their games which you can talk about all day, they have that exceptionally rare sixth sense for the game and a relentless fire that has pushed them to ascend to undisputed superstar status. They had it from day 1. Datsyuk had it in his rookie year when he was a lot lighter and getting pushed around a lot. You watched him and you knew he was going to be a magical player. He quite simply had outstanding technical skill. He just needed a bit more time to get used to the game in America and to bulk up a bit. He did that and he's scored 50 points (and far more...) in every season since his 2nd and all the while got the Selke's, became one of the team leaders in checks and now he's top 3 in voting for the Hart.

But it was all there from day 1. It was clear that this guy was special.

Flip is not special. He's profoundly average. Hell, maybe a little above average, but not much, and certainly not with any sense of consistency. He has NEVER shown the skills that Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Hossa have shown since before even entering the NHL. He's never come close to consistently having the same fire in a play to make something happen that Dats, Z and Hossa have far more often than not. In 3 years he hasn't hit 40 points and hasn't had even a remotely consistent scoring streak. Datsyuk had over 50 in his second year in 60 games. Flips claim to fame is the 2009 playoffs in which he was one of our better forwards. Meanwhile, no one bothers to consider the fact that we had how many guys from Grand Rapids playing for us? And how many of our regulars that were playing were injured?

I would hope a young, healthy Flip would play better than a bunch of guys who have never played a full season in the NHL and a bunch of older average guys who were injured, not to mention our stars that were injured.

Hossa was snake-bit beyond measure and only put up one less point than Flip. How many of Flips assists were secondaries where a proven superstar created magic and made a play?

Hossa scored more goals in the regular season than Flip scored points and I'm pretty sure Hossa missed more games. He also is as strong as our best in our end and one of the hardest working skaters in the league. How often was he right with our D-men in our end to counter a rush despite being in deep in the offensive zone seconds before? He out hustled Dats and Z more often than not this season.

Flip is as $3 million cap hit.

Hossa is likely to stay for a $4 million cap hit or not much more.

That's really all that needs to be said about Flip or Hudler to touch on the original topic. While they might be worth $3 million on other teams that don't have our draw and depth, on this team where a superstar like Marian Hossa might have a $4 million cap hit, Flip and Hudler are expendable at $3 million when you're trying to fit guys like Hossa in who are willing to bend way more than nearly anyone else in the league would.

Anyone who would rather keep Flip or Huds if it meant losing Hossa is either hung up on emotions or lacking in understanding of the game. I like both the guys when it comes down to it, but when you're trying to compete and win championships, you've got to do what it takes to put the best team on the ice. Sacrifices have to be made.

Enjoy.

[gcom007 1,465]

We saw Flip come into his own in 07-08 only to be our worst forward in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs. Confidence is great but in the long run it fizzles out. We've yet to see Filppula put together an 82 game season where he was among the top 6 Red Wings in scoring. I'm sure he's going to be a fantastically usefull player on this team in the future, I'm just not seeing the shot, shot selection or hands you need to be a star player in this league. Val does everything very well except when it comes to his offensive instincts. His shot is terrible, but his passing good (not fantastic, but definitely good) and his ability to hang onto and control the puck is excellent. He'll be able to put up more points this year, but I don't see him exceeding 50-55pts, sorry. Not unless he discovers a scoring touch. I'd be happy to see him break 60pts, though- don't get me wrong, he's still a Wing so I want him to succeed.

If you don't quite have the most blatant scoring touch, you better have fire and determination. Franzen had that. It got stifled by some cheapshot nightmares hanging in his head for awhile but once more time passed and he got his shot to step up when Holmstrom went down, the hard work and determination combined with generally solid skills all came together and now he's one of the most potent goal scorers in the league.

Flip doesn't have the hands nor the fire.

You're dead on with your 50-55 points and general assessment. He's a solid player, but all these people thinking he's on his way to super-stardom are so far out of their minds that it's not even funny. I found the Osgood bashing funny as people were just so rampantly flippant. This propping up of Flip as a future Datsyuk/Zetterberg though is just ridiculous. It's absurd. It's honestly almost insulting to my appreciation of the true superstars that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are. On top of that, it's just not fair to Flip; he doesn't deserve that kind of expectation thrust on him. People around here think every draft pick turns to gold. It's happened and we've been luckier than most, but hell, y'all should appreciate that Flip has done what he's done and leave it at that. That's still generally a success considering how many guys fizzle out before they even get a shot.

Not everyone is going to be or needs to be a superstar.

[gcom007 1,465]

I think if we are looking at stats, the most astonishing stat is that Huds, in the regular season was the MOST effective player for points vs icetime. He made the most of the time he was given and minute for minute was better than Dats, Z, Hossa and the Mule. Thats amazing. He could easily get 3 mill on the open market because on most teams he would be on the 1st or 2nd line. He wont get it in Motown, be he would be worth it!!!

I'd take a chance on him over Flip as he quite obviously has more raw skill and ability than Flip, but I don't put too much stock in the "most effective" stat. I mean, it's impressive, don't get me wrong. This guy's working hard too. Didn't he spend the last off-season or two out in LA with Chelios doing the whole "Chelios Workout" thing? He's improved his skating and even defense (a smidge......) and that's not to be knocked. He certainly has potential and skills, but there are still a lot of question marks. Aside from his size, I'm more concerned with his mental strength. While he puts up great numbers in light of his ice time, he's streaky and seems easily shaken. Could he grow out of it? Certainly. But it's still a question mark.

Like some have said, if he wants to stay in Detroit, he'd be wise to sign a 2-year deal on the cheap to prove himself and get a payday once we have more cap room. A big plus he has negotiating for a place on this team over Flip is that Flips deal is set. Hudler can negotiate a team-first deal that ensures that Flip will be the one packing his bags should the Wings sign Hossa as well.

But like I said, I'm over losing either of these guys. I like them and all, but the cap doesn't allow us to keep everyone we like. It's a shame but it's reality.

[gcom007 1,465]

^^^ This.

Filppula is better than Hudler today and has far more potential. I'm not sure how some people cannot see this?

We all like Jiri Hudler - but he is not worth 3 mill on the Wings. No way. Just a reality.

Like Conklin was better than Osgood in the regular season?

Huds has far more skill and ability than Flip. He has star-quality skills. I'm not saying he'll get there and I don't think he'll ever be a superstar to say the least, but given the numbers and the skill sets, Huds absolutely has more potential.

And as said above extensively, Flips playoff performance doesn't say as much as some would like. And the whole "better today" thing is just ridiculous. Are we going to throw Datsyuk to the curb because a healthy Flip had a better playoffs in some ways than an injured Dats who missed a lot of games? Don't be so fickle.

[HudlerFanatic 4]

Why trtade someone this year when it won't do us any good til next year....that is just silly!

KEEP HUDS!!!

I knew I was thinking in the right direction, no matter how many Wings Fans told me he won't stay, he's to small, not good enough....blah blah blah.......

He's proven himself....time and time again...so WHAT if a player didn't showup in EVERY SINGLE GAME that he plays....WHO DOES?!?!?!?!?

"Flips has potential to be better than Huds"....they are the same age, doesn't Fils have a season or two on Huds???? If Fils has potential, are people saying that Huds does not.....top 6 forwards...for a center....top 90 overall league assists......#7/#8 regular and playoffs for the Wings....

Hudler plays on the PP b/c he scores w/ the key players that are on the PP...Fils plays on the PK...b/c he IS bigger, a two way player....why would Babs put him on the PP if Huds obviously shows that he is better at PP then PK...that's commen sense...Im not hockey smart, but I know that much....

and you can't say anyone will be the next Dats, Z, etc........they are the only ones of their caliber, yes other players have the skill...but that is why they have made their OWN names for themselves.....some people just can't be compared to anyone......Huds has made a name for himself, the little guy on The Wings that can play the game, and no matter what people say.....that little dude can take a hit...and come back to play....so phlewwwwwwwwwwww!

Edited June 24, 2009 by HudlerFanatic

[Drake_Marcus 890]

If you don't quite have the most blatant scoring touch, you better have fire and determination. Franzen had that. It got stifled by some cheapshot nightmares hanging in his head for awhile but once more time passed and he got his shot to step up when Holmstrom went down, the hard work and determination combined with generally solid skills all came together and now he's one of the most potent goal scorers in the league.

Flip doesn't have the hands nor the fire.

You're dead on with your 50-55 points and general assessment. He's a solid player, but all these people thinking he's on his way to super-stardom are so far out of their minds that it's not even funny. I found the Osgood bashing funny as people were just so rampantly flippant. This propping up of Flip as a future Datsyuk/Zetterberg though is just ridiculous. It's absurd. It's honestly almost insulting to my appreciation of the true superstars that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are. On top of that, it's just not fair to Flip; he doesn't deserve that kind of expectation thrust on him. People around here think every draft pick turns to gold. It's happened and we've been luckier than most, but hell, y'all should appreciate that Flip has done what he's done and leave it at that. That's still generally a success considering how many guys fizzle out before they even get a shot.

Not everyone is going to be or needs to be a superstar.

Agreed!

[talex 1]

Both are good at what they do which is different types of play.

Both play well with good players around them.

I can see a real power house line with a core of Flip and Hossa and any of the following...

Homer, Cleary, Franzen, Dats or Z possibly even abby or helm or leino because the core is a strong one that I think would only get better with time. Flip is a good 2 way player solid on both ends, he needs to shoot more and I think his value will rise, but I would love to see a Flip/Hossa core line given more time to gel because I think it has potential to be a monster line in the NHL.

Huds size was a liability at times during the playoffs, however he also has great playmaker ability when he is on a line with 2 strong forwards which make up for his size and has more of a scoring flare than flip.

I just do not see Huds making the top 2 lines to play with the guys he needs to in order to really shine on Detroit, both are skilled but I think Flip especially if Hossa signs fits better and has a much larger potential. I would love to see Huds stay at a low pay rate but at the same time I would also like to see him get a shot on a top 2 line elsewhere, the possibility of having the Hossa/Flip line is just to juicy to risk in order to keep Hudler.

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

I have always liked Huds from day one

Pros

1) limited ice but finds away to score

2) ?????????????????????????

Cons

1) small

2) can not skate that well

3) not a very good 2 way player

Does Huds deserve 3 mil yes but he will not get it in Detroit