egroen 384 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Okay, here goes..... Does that relate to hockey? A bit. It's only a game, it's just entertainment, but there are still heroes and villians. There are strong and there are weak, there are the brave and there are the cowardly. I appreciate the guy who scores pretty goals, he's fun to watch, but I admire the rare man who risks injury to stick up for himself or for a teammate. The worst offenders, the real objects of my ire, are not the non-fighters. If you don't wanna fight, good for you, don't fight, you can make a strong argument for pacifism....the men I can't stand are those who act tough but refuse to deliver when it's time to make good on their posturing. They have my disdain, and worse yet, my pity. When I was 15 I could relate to them. Not anymore. There's a clip somewhere of Yzerman checking run from behing into the boards, and almost immediately after, Probert was there, gloves off, ready to make whoever it was pay (Frasier maybe?). Yes, he would get a 2 and a 5. Yes, it would put the team shorthanded. Yes, 1st liner Probie might have broken his hand or his head. All that said, it was the right thing to do. Not talk s***, not issue a warning, not sick our powerplay on them, but take care of business immediatly and without considering the consequnce, because it is the right thing to do as a teammate. I like pulling for a Cup winning team, but to me, one incidence of risking self to do what's right as a man is better than 1500 Stanley Cups. It isn't macho, it's the very least that should be expected of a family member, friend or teammate. Heh... I was into the same scene at pretty much the exact same time (+ a few years), so can actually identify with a lot of that. Big into ska and punk - shaved my head, but thought most SHARPS were dicks -- but obviously not as bad as the racist skinheads and had a lot of run-ins with them, even worse when I lived in Spain for a time. So I get that, I really do... But I have chilled out a ton since then. Let's face it, if you were anything like me, you went a bit out of your way to seek these kind of confrontations out (even though you were usually "standing up for someone")... but that risk is just not worth it any more. I've had broken bones, a concussion, had my side split open with a broken bottle, had switch blades pulled a few times and even a gun once. I just look back at that and shake my head... I have a family now and really hope my son is never such an idiot. At this level, hockey is not just a game, it's a profession and a lot of these guys have families as well. Most enforcers in the NHL would give it up in a second for the skill to play in the NHL without it (the stress of being an enforcer is largely what turned him to chemical dependency). If I was lucky enough to still be playing hockey, and in the NHL, I would avoid fighting like the plague - screw that - but you better believe I would trash-talk like no tomorrow. That is part of the game, and if you can throw someone off with it, good for you... I just don't think I should have to fight, and possibly risk injury or worse over words. That said, I love seeing fighting in hockey, get excited seeing it and have nothing but respect for guys who stick up for teammates, especially after cheapshots (it's the cheapshots I am most bothered by, not trash-talking and not those who refuse to fight).... but I do not think anything less of those who don't -- because at my age and my place in life, I would go out of my way to avoid it as well. No one is legitimately threatening their loved ones, and that is about the only reason I would ever get into a fight nowadays for. Thanks for the post, I actually appreciated it and was surprised to have a common thread with you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 I've always thought of a power forward as a guy who hits, fights, scores lots of goals, and does it in front of the net. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) Given what has been posted in this thread so far, the definition of a power forward is: Big, strong forward who uses this size to forecheck, backcheck, and generally intimidate opponents. The power forward also has decent skills and can capitalize on scoring opportunity if he is playing in a scoring role. Finally, a power forward is willing to fight and to stand up for his team. Given that definition, the Wings had one player this past season who actually fits every aspect of the definition; Tomas Kopecky. The Wings had many forwards who fit most of those aspects, but Kopecky is the only one who fits all of them. I never got on the Kopecky hate train, but you are really, REALLY stretching it with the Kopecky talk and statistical essays and guesstimations on him. Hockey isn't played using statistical projections. And no, power forwards aren't a dying breed. It isn't required that power forwards have to fight. Just because people don't fight or always face up to people doesn't mean they are a bunch of cowards. Edited June 30, 2009 by SouthernWingsFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlakKy 58 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 I think a case for AO being called a power forward could be made. I mean 6'2", 225 lbs, hits everything that moves... stands up for himself and teammates... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 I never got on the Kopecky hate train, but you are really, REALLY stretching it with the Kopecky talk and statistical essays and guesstimations on him. Hockey isn't played using statistical projections. And no, power forwards aren't a dying breed. It isn't required that power forwards have to fight. Just because people don't fight or always face up to people doesn't mean they are a bunch of cowards. Kopecky was/is the closest the Wings have to a power forward. When the Wings gave him a shot on the second line with actual skilled linemates, he didn't look out of place and actually performed well offensively. Kopecky has been the Wings' biggest hitting forward in games he was healthy for over the last few seasons, he's shown offensive skill when he has been used in a scoring capability, and while the Beauchemin fight didn't turn out well he has also had a few fights where he destroyed the opposition. Guys like Franzen, Holmstrom, Hossa all have most of the traits of a power forward as you would generally consider one, but Kopecky is the only guy on the roster who fits the bill for every single aspect. That's why a first line of Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Franzen and a second line of Kopecky/Hudler/Hossa would not have been bad; it would have allowed for a better third line (Cleary/Filppula/Holmstrom) and given us a chance to see what Kopes could do in a scoring role. Obviously this would be in a trial situation as far as Kopecky is concerned; if he didn't do well he would move back to the third or fourth line and serve as a grinder, a role he has done well for his salary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Kopecky was/is the closest the Wings have to a power forward. When the Wings gave him a shot on the second line with actual skilled linemates, he didn't look out of place and actually performed well offensively. Kopecky has been the Wings' biggest hitting forward in games he was healthy for over the last few seasons, he's shown offensive skill when he has been used in a scoring capability, and while the Beauchemin fight didn't turn out well he has also had a few fights where he destroyed the opposition. Guys like Franzen, Holmstrom, Hossa all have most of the traits of a power forward as you would generally consider one, but Kopecky is the only guy on the roster who fits the bill for every single aspect. That's why a first line of Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Franzen and a second line of Kopecky/Hudler/Hossa would not have been bad; it would have allowed for a better third line (Cleary/Filppula/Holmstrom) and given us a chance to see what Kopes could do in a scoring role. Obviously this would be in a trial situation as far as Kopecky is concerned; if he didn't do well he would move back to the third or fourth line and serve as a grinder, a role he has done well for his salary. You really like being unique don't you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 You really like being unique don't you? Translation: "I can't really say that what you said is incorrect in any way, but I don't like Kopecky." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Translation: "I can't really say that what you said is incorrect in any way, but I don't like Kopecky." where can I find these videos of Kopecky destroying his opposition? LOL are you gonna link me Patrick Sharp and 5'10 Scott May who's had 1 fight in his entire career??? always good for a laugh though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 where can I find these videos of Kopecky destroying his opposition? LOL are you gonna link me Patrick Sharp and 5'10 Scott May who's had 1 fight in his entire career??? always good for a laugh though Let's hear you actually discredit any point through logic I made instead of trying to say "Oh, but those don't count because I said so." Whether you like it or not, Kopecky was the closest thing to a PF the Wings had, and had he not had such injury troubles, perhaps he develops into the solid second line PF everyone here wants? Maybe he still will if given a chance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Let's hear you actually discredit any point through logic I made instead of trying to say "Oh, but those don't count because I said so." Whether you like it or not, Kopecky was the closest thing to a PF the Wings had, and had he not had such injury troubles, perhaps he develops into the solid second line PF everyone here wants? Maybe he still will if given a chance. Because you're clearly someone who allows himself to listen to reason. For some reason you can't let go of your perception of Hudler and Kopecky when they were Griffins. Huds and Kopy made some great strides in the AHL. Move on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Let's hear you actually discredit any point through logic I made instead of trying to say "Oh, but those don't count because I said so." Whether you like it or not, Kopecky was the closest thing to a PF the Wings had, and had he not had such injury troubles, perhaps he develops into the solid second line PF everyone here wants? Maybe he still will if given a chance. OK i'll play along but it's meaningless to try and debate with you because you seem to get lost in your own mind and actually believe most of the stuff you type (I think anyways... lol) but here we go Kopecky is a 6'3 bonerack, I laugh whenever I hear people talk about his "size", for the record I've watched Kopecky play for a while since his Griffin days, he showed up every other game in his last season and had some nice point totals, he played much tougher than previous seasons cuz he had Bootland on his line but he almost always backed down from challenges much like in the NHL... he is a tall, skilled player that the organization is trying to turn into a "big bodied grinder, or 'power forward'" but it's not his natural game, he's just a skilled guy with a bit of an attitude he'll hit because he has to to keep his spot in the line up, but you're saying he intimidates guys? i'd bet half the league doesn't know who he is.. destroying guys in fights? like I said he has a quick fight where he bloodied Sharp, that was nice to watch but lets be serious they threw like 2-3 punches each and Kopecky just happened to bloody him... and his other famous YouTube fight is against a guy 5'10 180, Scott May, his first and last career fight...spirited tilt no doubt but let's not get carried away here... he got dummied by Beauch and i've seen him turtle on a couple occasions in the AHL.... power forwards aren't typically the type to turtle... he's not a power forward plain and simple... he scares no one, he's average when it comes to physical play (stands out on a non-physical team)... very unwilling and unproven fighter... and most importantly (to me) he just doesn't play like a POWER FORWARD... he doesn't demand space on the ice using his body, he's just a tall guy with some decent hands, nothing more, nothing less... yeah the injuries set him back but that happens the closest thing we have to a power forward is Johan Franzen because when he's on fire he does create space for himself using his body and drives the net...he just lacks the "other" qualities Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Because you're clearly someone who allows himself to listen to reason. For some reason you can't let go of your perception of Hudler and Kopecky when they were Griffins. Huds and Kopy made some great strides in the AHL. Move on. Ok... Yes, they both made great strides in the A. But explain to me how saying that "Kopecky did well and did not look out of place when he played on Detroit's second line in a scoring role" has anything to do with his time as a Griffin? Explain to me also how anything I've said about Hudler has to do with his time as a Griffin. And finally...if you could please find someone who will respond to my earlier post about why Kopecky is the only Wing who even loosely fits the definition of a power forward with something other than "Nuh uh!" I would be very grateful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 Ok... Yes, they both made great strides in the A. But explain to me how saying that "Kopecky did well and did not look out of place when he played on Detroit's second line in a scoring role" has anything to do with his time as a Griffin? Explain to me also how anything I've said about Hudler has to do with his time as a Griffin. And finally...if you could please find someone who will respond to my earlier post about why Kopecky is the only Wing who even loosely fits the definition of a power forward with something other than "Nuh uh!" I would be very grateful. Well, I'm not really interested in arguing with you about whether or not Kopy fits your definition of a power forward. I'm interested as to why you defend him as well certain others. You defend Kopy, a guy who clearly hasn't made a significant impact for whatever reason as well as lobby for Huds to center the second line, which in other words means make one of the slowest guys on the team responsible for the most amount of ice among the forwards. Yet you're so eager to trade away Stuart, probably the second best defensive defenseman on the team. More often than not you just don't make any sense. Why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) You really like being unique don't you? Of course, he's the only one that uses a font that's incredibly hard on the eyes to read to start. Edited June 30, 2009 by SouthernWingsFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) Ok... Yes, they both made great strides in the A. But explain to me how saying that "Kopecky did well and did not look out of place when he played on Detroit's second line in a scoring role" has anything to do with his time as a Griffin? Explain to me also how anything I've said about Hudler has to do with his time as a Griffin. And finally...if you could please find someone who will respond to my earlier post about why Kopecky is the only Wing who even loosely fits the definition of a power forward with something other than "Nuh uh!" I would be very grateful. Franzen and Hossa play more like power forwards than Kopecky -- they charge, go hard to the net and are hard to knock off the puck -- they just never or rarely fight. Kopecky might get one or two more fights per year, but he is easy to knock off the puck and lands on his own ass more often than not when he goes for a hit. He has pretty awful balance and plays with a high center of gravity. I kept seeing hints of Kopecky blossoming in the past couple years, but he has not since his knee injury which I think really adversely affected him. He'll probably have a much better year next year and will benefit from being on another team... I think his agent realizes this and thinks he can get better money and minutes elsewhere. Rich Winter is right in this case. Edited June 30, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted June 30, 2009 The definition of a power forward to most is a player who'll drop the gloves from time to time along with the goal scoring , and physical play. No fighting = no power forward status. Franzen = big guy who has a scoring touch, and will throw his body around, but that's about it. Yeah, but he's got some great dance moves youtube Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManLuv4Clears 7 Report post Posted July 1, 2009 Yeah, but he's got some great dance moves youtube Or this effort that netted him 5 in the box for getting his ass handed to him: name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>&"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted July 1, 2009 Or this effort that netted him 5 in the box for getting his ass handed to him: Yeah, but it does feel good to see Jackman get hurt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManLuv4Clears 7 Report post Posted July 1, 2009 Yeah, but it does feel good to see Jackman get hurt. Can't argue that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
