88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

Good for you.... seriously.

But get a clue if you think this is the most absurd OP in LGW's history - this one is simply a fact.

I actually really hope the Stanley Cup Hangover is real and they coasted through parts of the season last year (as several players alluded to in interviews, Osgood springing to mind initially), because if not, and that was them giving their all, we could be in big trouble next season.

I don't believe it's the most absurd OP, because there is a thread here about the Leafs making the playoffs next year. Surely, I jest. I think people are getting sick of being sick of reading threads that are all doom and gloom. I agree that it could be a dire situation next year, but I don't see the point in making such an issue out of it. A positive spin would have helped. Something about the ways Kenny will fill in the blanks that are appearing on the bench, or suggesting that it will be great to see a new crop of future superstars on skates, would have made this thread easier to swallow.

I couldn't stay away because it got a little entertaining.

Everyone needs to remember: You shouldn't sweat the petty things....and you shouldn't pet the sweaty things.

I trust mine hockey team to Dr. Holland.

[Stiffy 0]

How many times do we have to live through the Holland generated action that turns the world right side up? Settle down little panicky people, things will be okay. Patience.

As for those 88 goals, I seem to recall we needed them and a few more due to our awful defensive play and a bloated goals against stat.

[Guest Crymson]

As it is right now this is not as good a team as last years... And while people try and bring it up as in comparison it is not even closely as deep and good as the 07'-08' cup winners...

Why are you arguing that this year's team will be a downer when you haven't even seen it in action yet? Defensive pessimism, anyone?

[Snazzy 0]

Why are you arguing that this year's team will be a downer when you haven't even seen it in action yet? Defensive pessimism, anyone?

I'm noticing this a lot here too. Many LGW posters think next season is all going to be doom and gloom. Only fair weather fans would expect all the players to have a career downside and the end of the Red Wings legacy. They don't see the positive side of the young guns and black aces will be for the future of the Wings. They don't understand that players will never have a chance to advance to that next level if never given the chance, and lastly, they don't understand that good teams with good players will step up. If the Red Wings don't have that, and the black aces and young guns don't take advantage of this awesome opportunity (which they waited all their life for), then guess what... the Red Wings were never that good to begin with, they were just "lucky" to have the success they had and Kenny Holland was only a lucky GM who could fall in a pile of s*** only to come out smelling like roses.

I tend to think the Red Wings have been, are and will continue to be an elite team. Players need a chance to prove they are caliber players. Yet some fans here are afraid to give these guys a chance, they only want proven vets that are going to get paid the money we don't have to spend...

Wings will be fine. They don't need big name players. The young guys just need their chance.

[FirstSamuel1745 0]

Subtract 88 goals and we edge out the Rangers by a goal for 28th place in goals scored.

And lets not forget that the Rangers made the playoffs. That's the important thing.

[Snazzy 0]

And lets not forget that the Rangers made the playoffs. That's the important thing.

Stop it! Logic has no use here. Lets live in the false pretense that we are doomed.

[titanium2 867]

Stop it! Logic has no use here. Lets live in the false pretense that we are doomed.

More like let's find every excuse to not invest faith or hope because if we do that and then end up on the losing end, well, that's just scary and too much to handle.

[Holmstrom96 347]

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

That's the production we've lost in Hossa, Hudler, Sammy and Kopecky.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

Like I and others said for the last couple weeks, there's a strong chance we're going to lose all our FA's, not just Hossa. Many scoffed at the notion. But look at us now.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

Now, if you really want to see how ugly that is, check this out....

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetch...ewName=goalsFor

Subtract 88 goals and we edge out the Rangers by a goal for 28th place in goals scored.

Obviously, it's not that cut and dry, but our kids are not likely to put up that much. Leino's had success at times but he wasn't a big scorer in the AHL even. It's unlikely we'll be able to bring anyone in with our cap space to help that much.

I'm not saying we're out at all as a lot of elite teams are taking a hit this go around as well, but this sure isn't going to be like the last few seasons. This team is going to have to work harder than ever for every point.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points - 4 (really 3...) players

That is not something to minimize.

We're allowed to use other players in their place. You see, when we lose players we replace them with others.

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

Yeah, let's just ridicule anyone who is concerned over that.

And yet, no one I saw mocked the post for expressing "concern." The issue was the lack of perspective, so what's your point exactly? Hey guys, STOP doing what you're NOT DOING. I'm sick of it!!!!!

Umm...thanks.

[Wingseroo 0]

We're allowed to use other players in their place. You see, when we lose players we replace them with others.

The problem is that we will be replacing them with lesser or at least less developed players... I am actually fine with the youth movement... I think it will pay off down the road... To the overly positive people who are expecting every player to have a better season then last year that is no different then the folks that think every player will have a worse year... Fact is on paper the Wings have fallen behind Chicago... That is on paper we will see how the season turns out, but to say this team is not at least starting the year weaker then last year is just lying to yourself... They might be stronger by the playoffs, but not at the start... Maybe everyone gels and is one of those perfect years.... I am thinking like 97 pts, 2nd in division, and a 4 to 6 seed... That is what I see on paper... What will actually be I do not know... And the depth that has carried this team for years is now depleted... If Zetts or Pavel get hurt this year for any long stretch it will be a tough season...

[Wingseroo 0]

Stop it! Logic has no use here. Lets live in the false pretense that we are doomed.

Logic dictates that this will be a weaker team then last few years... Sometimes logic is proven wrong, but to argue the Wings are not weaker today as a team then they were a few weeks ago is not logical...

[Snazzy 0]

Stop it! Logic has no use here. Lets live in the false pretense that we are doomed.

VS

Logic dictates that this will be a weaker team then last few years... Sometimes logic is proven wrong, but to argue the Wings are not weaker today as a team then they were a few weeks ago is not logical...

So in your logic a "weaker team" = "DOOMED!"? Really? Wings were a "weaker team" in 2007/08 with the cup champion roster than the 2008/09 non-cup champions roster. How did the 09 team work out? By your logic the 2007/08 team should have been DOOMED!, as well.

Only an ignorant illogical person would think the 2010 could improve over the 2009 Red Wings team in a salary cap world. Obviously you know s*** about the salary cap and how it effects the Wings... Zetterberg and Franzen didn't have big contracts before 2010, which means NO WAY CAN ANY GM IN THE WORLD KEEP HOSSA, LIDSTROM, RALFI, ZETTERBERG AND FRANZEN. I swear I don't understand how some of you dips***s think Holland can just s*** out more cap space?! Rhetorical question, don't answer that.

You should just keep panicking like the fair weather fan that you are, meanwhile I will enjoy season with the Red Wings and enjoy their 2010 playoff run.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Snazzy

[gcom007 1,465]

And yet, no one I saw mocked the post for expressing "concern." The issue was the lack of perspective, so what's your point exactly? Hey guys, STOP doing what you're NOT DOING. I'm sick of it!!!!!

Umm...thanks.

No, the issue is most people are reading half of the original post as opposed to the entire post which ties the topic together.

If people would have read the entire post they'd see that I addressed what the new kids might bring to the table.

If people thought for about two seconds about the last section and the very last line which states "This is nothing to minimize," they would ideally recognize that while I'm not quite serving up hope, I'm not serving up rabid doom and gloom by any stretch either.

As I've said numerous times, this thread is a response to two ideas that have been present on the board in recent weeks:

1) The idea many around here had that we absolutely wouldn't lose all of our free agents. I wrote numerous times beforehand that I believed there to be a very good possibility that we would in fact lose them all.

2) The idea that we are somehow a better team now that we don't have Hossa and Samuellson. I find that particular perspective to be foolish especially in light of losing Hudler as well.

As I said in the original post and in numerous other replies here for awhile, I'm well aware and quite excited about the new kids coming in, but it is unrealistic to expect too much from them in their rookie seasons. I certainly hope they all have very successful years for their sakes and the team, but to expect them to move in and even come close to replacing the offensive depth we've just lost in their rookie seasons is not only ridiculous, it's simply not a fair to judge the players.

All in all, I struggle to see all the "complaining" and "doom and gloom" people are alluding to. I never said that we're screwed nor did I rip on anyone for leaving or on Ken Holland for dropping the ball. Again, my final point stands as my perspective on the matter: losing these guys is nothing to minimize. If that spells "doom and gloom" or sounds like "complaining" to anyone, I would suggest going back to school to work on reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.

[gcom007 1,465]

We're allowed to use other players in their place. You see, when we lose players we replace them with others.

Wow? Really? Actually, wait, I think I remember saying that in the original post which you quoted. Oh, yep. Indeed I did.

[gcom007 1,465]

I'm noticing this a lot here too. Many LGW posters think next season is all going to be doom and gloom. Only fair weather fans would expect all the players to have a career downside and the end of the Red Wings legacy. They don't see the positive side of the young guns and black aces will be for the future of the Wings. They don't understand that players will never have a chance to advance to that next level if never given the chance, and lastly, they don't understand that good teams with good players will step up. If the Red Wings don't have that, and the black aces and young guns don't take advantage of this awesome opportunity (which they waited all their life for), then guess what... the Red Wings were never that good to begin with, they were just "lucky" to have the success they had and Kenny Holland was only a lucky GM who could fall in a pile of s*** only to come out smelling like roses.

I tend to think the Red Wings have been, are and will continue to be an elite team. Players need a chance to prove they are caliber players. Yet some fans here are afraid to give these guys a chance, they only want proven vets that are going to get paid the money we don't have to spend...

Wings will be fine. They don't need big name players. The young guys just need their chance.

I don't think many people think next year is all "doom and gloom" at all. I'm sure some do, but not the majority. But I do believe a lot of people are recognizing that while we're getting weaker, other teams are getting stronger which is going to make for a tougher regular season. Discussing the future with the perspective that it's going to be tougher does not equate to "we're screwed" in any way. That is simply how you're interpreting it and your interpretations tend to be wildly subjective.

And who around here isn't excited to for the kids to come up? Most of us have been waiting for these guys for a long time. I am extremely excited personally to see what they can do and I think they're really going to be solid Wings for a long time. But I don't think they're going to necessarily have rookie years that are comparable to guys who have 3-4 years NHL experience. I expect them to have rookie years with ups and downs while they adapt to the NHL game. Maybe they'll all rise above reasonable rookie standards and that'd be great, but it would be unreasonable to expect that from the start.

It's not about being pessimistic or negative at all. It's about trying to be objective.

I would rather discuss the Red Wings on a discussion board from an objective perspective than gravity to "doom and gloom" or "overzealous" extremes. I'm not a bandwagon fan, but I'm no slappy either. I call it how I see it. Always have, always will. My thoughts are oftentimes not well received around here and I can't tell you how many times people have disagreed with me. However, the fact remains, I'm usually right. Search for it if you care to.

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

No, the issue is most people are reading half of the original post as opposed to the entire post which ties the topic together.

I didn't see it that way when I read it and I don't see is that re-reading it now. The first half says we're totally f'd. The second half says hey guys, good news there is some balance, reality is we're only mostly f'd. You included Kopecky who while I am not against as must as a lot of people suggesting we can't replace him with equal quality is laughable. Hudler is skilled but small in a growing league. We lose some positive with Sammy, we lose some negative by getting rid of him. Hossa is the only real "loss" but to sign him would have required dumping other good players and we never really expected to keep him. Your original post was not remotely balanced, sorry.

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

it's not about being pessimistic or negative at all. It's about trying to be objective

The reality is that to a lot of people somehow ripping your own team being totally "pessimistic" and "negative" is in their mind somehow automatically "objective." I'm not saying you are or are not that, haven't read enough of your posts, I'm just telling you that usually when I hear what you said it's by someone who thinks that's the case.

[Wingseroo 0]

The reality is that to a lot of people somehow ripping your own team being totally "pessimistic" and "negative" is in their mind somehow automatically "objective." I'm not saying you are or are not that, haven't read enough of your posts, I'm just telling you that usually when I hear what you said it's by someone who thinks that's the case.

Not recognizing that Chicago is on the ascent while the Wings are scrambling a bit this off season is not being realistic... If I were laying money down on a bet I would take Chicago to win the Division... I am not betting on it so I am hoping the Wings take another crown in the division... What I expect as the most likely outcome and what I hope are not the same thing... That's not being negative its being realistic... I hope for one thing, but recognize another... Goal tending could still bite the Blackhawks in the ass, Toews & Kane could suck, amongst a million other things... And it is not always bad to be a bit of an underdog, could light a fire under some Red Wing players asses... That doesn't change the fact that everyone will have the Blackhawks picked to win the division before the season starts...

[BuckeyeWingsfan80 209]

Not recognizing that Chicago is on the ascent while the Wings are scrambling a bit this off season is not being realistic... If I were laying money down on a bet I would take Chicago to win the Division... I am not betting on it so I am hoping the Wings take another crown in the division... What I expect as the most likely outcome and what I hope are not the same thing... That's not being negative its being realistic... I hope for one thing, but recognize another... Goal tending could still bite the Blackhawks in the ass, Toews & Kane could suck, amongst a million other things... And it is not always bad to be a bit of an underdog, could light a fire under some Red Wing players asses... That doesn't change the fact that everyone will have the Blackhawks picked to win the division before the season starts...

If the Wings refocus on defense and actually limit the turnovers they'll still win the division by 6-10 points in the end.

The only real reason the division was under 10 points THIS YEAR was because the Wings locked up the division earlier than anyone else and was more or less locked into the 2nd seed and started to not take risks generally associated with a team fighting for a playoff spot.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

That's the production we've lost in Hossa, Hudler, Sammy and Kopecky.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

Like I and others said for the last couple weeks, there's a strong chance we're going to lose all our FA's, not just Hossa. Many scoffed at the notion. But look at us now.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

Now, if you really want to see how ugly that is, check this out....

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetch...ewName=goalsFor

Subtract 88 goals and we edge out the Rangers by a goal for 28th place in goals scored.

Obviously, it's not that cut and dry, but our kids are not likely to put up that much. Leino's had success at times but he wasn't a big scorer in the AHL even. It's unlikely we'll be able to bring anyone in with our cap space to help that much.

I'm not saying we're out at all as a lot of elite teams are taking a hit this go around as well, but this sure isn't going to be like the last few seasons. This team is going to have to work harder than ever for every point.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points - 4 (really 3...) players

That is not something to minimize.

All you said about the kids coming up is one statement of Leino's success in the AHL, and that wasn't even that optimistic.

"88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points" was put in the OP four times, why beat that particular dead horse? Say it once and move on.

"Subtract 88 goals and we edge out the Rangers by a goal for 28th place in goals scored." If you were not discounting the fact that the holes will be filled by other players, why not add another seventy or seventy five goals scored by others?

"That is not something to minimize." I don't believe many here are minimizing the issue, rather they refuse to make too much of an issue out of it. A "wait and see" approach is far better than a "Chicken Little" approach.

It's possible the Wings will have a rebuilding year and possibly not even make the playoffs. It's possible they will win the President's Trophy and go on to win the cup. Either way, whatever is said here on LGW will have no bearing on the outcome. Realistically, the "wait and see" approach is the way to go. We have no idea what the big cheese's are thinking, or doing behind the scenes. Next season will come along, we'll cheer for the Wings and they will play hard for us. No matter the outcome, we are still Wings fans. And those that are not, especially if it's because they tanked one season, can kiss my hairy white ass.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Hack & Whack Rule!

[Doc Holiday 0]

2) The idea that we are somehow a better team now that we don't have Hossa and Samuellson. I find that particular perspective to be foolish especially in light of losing Hudler as well.

Who the hell said that?

I think people are saying that it is unrealistic to think that by losing those forwards that our team will not be able to succeed. It is a possibility (it is EVERY year), but Detroit upgraded last offseason and yet lost. How does that work?

Injuries.

Complacency.

Certain "Upgrades" not pulling their own weight.

This is why I don't think we should start to worry about anything. Yes we shouldn't rule out the possibility that Detroit will fail in comparison to last year, but we don't control the outcome of the season. There isn't any reason to dwell on problems, like it would be pointless to keep dwelling on Detroit's game seven loss.

Detroit will not have the same offensive production, but I believe Detroit will do better on defense.

As I said in the original post and in numerous other replies here for awhile, I'm well aware and quite excited about the new kids coming in, but it is unrealistic to expect too much from them in their rookie seasons. I certainly hope they all have very successful years for their sakes and the team, but to expect them to move in and even come close to replacing the offensive depth we've just lost in their rookie seasons is not only ridiculous, it's simply not a fair to judge the players.

Again, my final point stands as my perspective on the matter: losing these guys is nothing to minimize. If that spells "doom and gloom" or sounds like "complaining" to anyone, I would suggest going back to school to work on reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.

I don't think anyone is "minimizing" it and thinking Detroit will be uber awesome. We all know that we lost offensive production. But the problem is you took away 88 goals without adding any, saying "Detroit would edge out the Rangers for 28th place in goals scored." One thing you forget is guys like Hossa, Samuelsson, Hudler, etc took up ice time, and that means that the ice time will be put to other assets, so that will not be simply "lost offense". Reduced? Of course. But not 88 lost goals.

Your position seems to making more out of the lost assets than I think is necessary. Yes, they were big offensive contributors. But we will not have the 28th best offense in the league this year. Not even close.

[egroen 384]

Looks like Holland is in the newly coined "doom & gloom" crowd

"the most challenging regular season we've had since the early 1990s." -- Ken Holland

"Last season, we had a real margin for error because of our ability to score," Holland said. "We outscored our mistakes. We weren't very good on defense or the penalty kill for most of the season, but we could crank it up offensively.

"We still think we can roll out three pairs of defensemen who have no real weakness. But we won't be as explosive. We'll have to play tighter, and our scoring is going to come from our top two lines now, like most clubs."

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/conte...EO.html?sid=101

[Snazzy 0]

Looks like Holland is in the newly coined "doom & gloom" crowd

"the most challenging regular season we've had since the early 1990s." -- Ken Holland

"Last season, we had a real margin for error because of our ability to score," Holland said. "We outscored our mistakes. We weren't very good on defense or the penalty kill for most of the season, but we could crank it up offensively.

"We still think we can roll out three pairs of defensemen who have no real weakness. But we won't be as explosive. We'll have to play tighter, and our scoring is going to come from our top two lines now, like most clubs."

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/conte...EO.html?sid=101

That article is coming from Columbus and they totally hacked up what Kenny Holland really said. If you listen to the actually audio interview from start to finish, you wouldn't have made your post. It's easy to hack some quotes from an interview to paint an entirely different picture from the what really was said. I actually thought you were smarter than that egroen, guess not.

[Holmstrom96 347]

Wow? Really? Actually, wait, I think I remember saying that in the original post which you quoted. Oh, yep. Indeed I did.

Yup, but you have to realize that those players that replace them will be able to play and contribute and get goals and assists (which also count as points!).

You see, when the other guys leave, other dudes get to play in their place. Those guys will be able to contribute to the team's effort. You seem to forget that!

I know we will miss Hossa, he was a dominating force in the playoffs with all that scoring he did. Now we have to make due with guys like Helm...

2009 Playoffs

Hossa - 23 games, 6 goals, 9 assists, 15 points

Helm - 23 games, 4 goals, 1 assist, 5 points

Now that doesn't seem impressive for Helm, unless you forget that Hossa played on the first line with the Red Wings best players and got gobs of ice time while Helm played on the fourth line with the Wings 4th line talent, getting barely any ice time.

No Hossa means more Helm and other people who are capable of putting in an effort.

[gcom007 1,465]

Yup, but you have to realize that those players that replace them will be able to play and contribute and get goals and assists (which also count as points!).

You see, when the other guys leave, other dudes get to play in their place. Those guys will be able to contribute to the team's effort. You seem to forget that!

Ummm, I did not forget. I said that in the original post.

From the original post:

Obviously, it's not that cut and dry, but our kids are not likely to put up that much. Leino's had success at times but he wasn't a big scorer in the AHL even. It's unlikely we'll be able to bring anyone in with our cap space to help that much.

I'm not saying we're out at all as a lot of elite teams are taking a hit this go around as well, but this sure isn't going to be like the last few seasons. This team is going to have to work harder than ever for every point.

88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points - 4 (really 3...) players

That is not something to minimize.

Obviously other guys will come in and get points, but if you expect four rookies to put up the kind of numbers that Sammy, Hossa and Hudler put up, I think you're being foolishly optimistic. Ericson's a defenseman for one thing so obviously he won't be netting too many goals. Helm and Abdelkader could surprise people this season with descent production but they're more likely to have typical rookie years with the ups and downs and lessons and all that. Leino is the biggest wild-card. He's got the most potential to score, but it's absolutely not a given that he's going to consistently find that knack in his first full season in the NHL. If he nets 15 goals, I'll be thrilled. He's got the skill for certain to do so, but if he only manages to put up 10, I sure won't hold it against him.

All these guys are coming in as rookies and their role is going to be far more defined than it's been for them thus far. They're going to be roster players and are going to be expected to contribute. That brings a kind of pressure they haven't really been exposed to yet coming up for brief stints due to injuries. I'm thinking Helm and Ericson are going to be most ready to contribute to the overall success of the team this year, but they're also guys that aren't as likely to score as much as Abs or Leino likely will in time.

Again, I'm not saying that I don't hope all these guys have great years. I'm certainly not saying that we won't make up a single point of the 206 we lost. And I'm absolutely not saying that we're screwed. But this is likely to be the toughest regular season this team has had in a long, long time.

P.S. We really, really, really, really need Lilja to be good to go for the start of the season.