Interesting article about the cost of recent years trades by wings

[Guest mindfly]

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/07/qu..._of_the_re.html

The only trade that really stings in retrospect is probably the Lang one... imagine having Mike Green and Fleischmann in detroit

Two of the Red Wings' four trades involving significant draft picks over the past decade have come back to bite them in the rear.

The Red Wings' trade for Chris Chelios involved Anders Eriksson, who has evolved into #6/7 defenseman, and two first-round draft picks. The Chicago Blackhawks picked Adam Munro, who's a 26-year-old free agent that has spent the vast majority of his career in the AHL, and Steve McCarthy, whose 300 games have yielded very little for the 28-year-old offensive defenseman and current Anaheim Duck. Good deal there...

While Wings fans still fret about the Todd Bertuzzi deal (and so do I), the Red Wings' supposed can't-miss prospect in 21-year-old forward Shawn Matthias has taken several steps backward in his first two pro seasons, which he mostly spent with the Rochester Americans. The situation bears watching.

Two other trades, however, have really stung:

Detroit's trade for Robert Lang gave the Washington Capitals both 25-year-old winger Tomas Fleischmann, who has the potential to develop into a solid second-line forward, and the draft pick which would become Norris Trophy finalist Mike Green...

And the Wings' trade for Mathieu Schneider gave the Kings Sean Avery, now-KHL'er Maxim Kuznetsov, and two draft picks, including now-New York Islanders grinder Jeff Tambellini and a pick which the Boston Bruins acquired and used to draft sophomore forward David Krejci, who posted 73 points this past season.

Today, Michael Petrella of "The Production Line reports that the Red Wings' draft picks dealt to the Los Angeles Kings for Brad Stuart were traded away: the Colorado Avalanche used the Wings' second-rounder in 2008 to draft goaltender Peter Delmas, who lost 27 of his 39 starts for the Lewiston MAINEacs of the QMJHL this past season, and the Atlanta Thrashers drafted defensive defenseman Ben Chariot, who posted 12 points and 111 penalty minutes while playing for the Guelph Storm this past season, with this year's Wings' second round pick.

It'll take five to ten years to determine whether Delmas and Chariot can provide the kind of impact to the Red Wings that Brad Stuart has and will give them--Stuart provides the kind of defensive intangible in an astonishingly solid two-way defenseman with both a nasty physical bite and the kind of puck-moving skills which may allow him to very ably fill the power play void caused by Mikael Samuelsson's departure...

And Chris Chelios's two Stanley Cups and fantastic influence upon his teammates, both young and old, in terms of physical conditioning, grit, and the belief that your age has nothing to do with whether you can play the game, encouraging everyone from Kris Draper to Johan Franzen and (hopefully) Nicklas Lidstrom to say, "You know what? I think I might just give 'er a few more years than I thought I would..."

With Lang and Schneider, it's hard to argue that Schneider's presence and Lang's clutch contributions helped the Wings get past the San Jose Sharks and reach the Western Conference Finals in 2007, but while losing the headache that is Sean Avery didn't hurt Detroit a bit, players like Krejci, Fleischmann, and Green would dramatically change the Wings' face.

And Todd Bertuzzi's impact on the Wings speaks for itself. He played pretty well in the initial stages of the Wings' playoff run in 2007, but his back never really healed enough for him to provide an impact against the Anaheim Ducks (he re-injured his back during that series), and one could very well argue that Dallas Drake provided the physical impact the Wings had hoped Bertuzzi would provide, with some added discipline, no less, as the Wings surged toward the Stanley Cup in 2008...

And Matthias still has a remarkable amount of potential as the kind of "power forward" need the Wings were only able to address thanks to the pleasantly surprising development of Johan Franzen from the 3rd-liner they expected him to be to a star "Mule."

Sometimes trades work, and sometimes they don't, but given other teams' luck in drafting impact players with Detroit's picks over the past few seasons, sometimes you can only shake your head and admit that it's a little easier to accept the fact that other teams have gotten a little lucky when the Wings have delivered a Stanley Cup, two trips to the Stanley Cup Finals, three to the Conference Finals, and four regular seasons of 50+ wins during their first four post-lockout seasons.

[Rice 42]

There's no guarantee the Wings would've taken Green with that pick, but yeah, it kind of sucks. I'm not sure he'd be such a great fit in Detroit, though.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Green isn't competent with Red Wings style hockey. In fact, that's what I hated so much about Schneider.

[Snazzy 0]

It's hard to deem anything the Red Wings org has done as failure when it wins as many championships as they have the past two decades. Let alone as many playoff appearances, president trophies and WCF/SCF appearances.

"If winning is wrong, I don't wanna be right!"

[Pucks 66]

Never a fan of Schneider, Lazy or Bertoothie so I'd have to agree those trades were poor.

[Doc Holiday 0]

It's hard to deem anything the Red Wings org has done as failure when it wins as many championships as they have the past two decades. Let alone as many playoff appearances, president trophies and WCF/SCF appearances.

"If winning is wrong, I don't wanna be right!"

The Devils are the only ones who are comparable. And Detroit has more championships anyway.

[titanium2 867]

The Devils are the only ones who are comparable. And Detroit has more championships anyway.

Pittsburgh is going to blow both of them out of the competition. Book it. Can't deny it. Wings and Devils era is ovaaa. Sid the Kid is God. What is Easton?

[Guest Crymson]

This article assumes that the Wings would have drafted Green or Krejci. That's a stretch. Virtually nothing was given up to land Bertuzzi, so I don't think that one fits in. All in all, the article just seems like someone using a tremendous amount of hindsight and quite a bit of reaching in order to bemoan some of the Wings` moves over the last few seasons.

How about the trade for Stuart? Yeah, that worked.

[Snazzy 0]

Pittsburgh is going to blow

I agree with everything quoted.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

The Wings also have 2 Stanley Cups out of those deals.

100% of the NHL would take two cups over those players mentioned

I don't care much for this article.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't put much stock into these kinds of things as you never know who the Wings would have drafted with any of those picks. Alot of people are high on Fleischmann now. I'm not. He's got a ton of offensively gifted players around him, for without them, he'd be a 3rd liner not doing a whole lot of anything IMO. If he has another 15-20 goal season and 40 points this year, then I might change my tune. He's still got lots of talent around him but consistency would definitely make me take a 2nd look at him.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Pittsburgh is going to blow both of them out of the competition. Book it. Can't deny it. Wings and Devils era is ovaaa. Sid the Kid is God. What is Easton?

I wouldn't count them out yet. They have two of the top 3 most gifted offensive players in the world right now, a competent coach, and a good set of role guys.

And those same players are in their twenties.

[TheOwl 77]

Those are all roughly speaking 50-50 trades. The two worst trades that come to mind made the same GM are:

Mike Milbury:

Alexei Yashin for 2001 2nd pick (Jason Spezza) and

Olli Jokinen and Roberto Luongo for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha.

That second one is especially brutal. What a disaster.

[Guest Crymson]

Those are all roughly speaking 50-50 trades. The two worst trades that come to mind made the same GM are:

Mike Milbury:

Alexei Yashin for 2001 2nd pick (Jason Spezza) and

Olli Jokinen and Roberto Luongo for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha.

That second one is especially brutal. What a disaster.

The Yashin trade was for Chara and the 2nd overall, so it's actually worse. Milbury also traded away Bertuzzi.

[mmamolo 287]

No matter how many times I see those Milbury trades I cant help but laugh. But that's kind of the point of this entire thread; everything is easy in hindsight. THose Milbury trades are just extreme examples of what that blog was tryign to point out. In the long run of course one team is going to come out ahead of the other but when trades are a lot closer to being fair (such as the Detroit deals when compared to the Isles deals) hindsight is 20/20. You can't compare intangibles that those additions brought and who may or may not have been selected had the wings kept the picks. Not to mention the fact that had the wings not brough in those players they probably wouldnt have finished the season in the same spot in the standings and no one knows who they would have or could have chosen. ALthough it's kind of fun to imagine how different things could have been it's kind of pointless.

[Guest Shoreline]

No matter how many times I see those Milbury trades I cant help but laugh. But that's kind of the point of this entire thread; everything is easy in hindsight. THose Milbury trades are just extreme examples of what that blog was tryign to point out. In the long run of course one team is going to come out ahead of the other but when trades are a lot closer to being fair (such as the Detroit deals when compared to the Isles deals) hindsight is 20/20. You can't compare intangibles that those additions brought and who may or may not have been selected had the wings kept the picks. Not to mention the fact that had the wings not brough in those players they probably wouldnt have finished the season in the same spot in the standings and no one knows who they would have or could have chosen. ALthough it's kind of fun to imagine how different things could have been it's kind of pointless.

I agree, and personally I find speculation of those sort of things (the what if's, especially when the Wings won a cup) to be completely pointless.

[mmamolo 287]

Well ya, at the end of the day it's all about Cups. It's like the Quebec-Philly trade with Lindros. At the end of the day Forsberg and co. brought cups to the Avs and Lindros didn't. BUt at the time everyone was going crazy over Lindros. It's always easy to look back. Just cause it's funny to see, here is the deal that sent Lindros to the Flyers.

Philly Offer: Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, a 1993 1st round pick (Jocelyn Thibault), a 1994 1st round pick (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals - Nolan Baumgartner) and $15,000,000 cash.

ANd for even more fun here is what the Rangers had offered but got rejected by an arbitrator:

Rangers Offer: Doug Weight, Tony Amonte, Alexei Kovalev, John Vanbiesbrouck, three first round picks (1993, 1994 & 1995) and $12,000,000.

[Cern 0]

Avery? OH MAN, DEALING HIM AWAY TOTALLY BIT US IN THE ASS.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Well ya, at the end of the day it's all about Cups. It's like the Quebec-Philly trade with Lindros. At the end of the day Forsberg and co. brought cups to the Avs and Lindros didn't. BUt at the time everyone was going crazy over Lindros. It's always easy to look back. Just cause it's funny to see, here is the deal that sent Lindros to the Flyers.

Philly Offer: Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, a 1993 1st round pick (Jocelyn Thibault), a 1994 1st round pick (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals - Nolan Baumgartner) and $15,000,000 cash.

ANd for even more fun here is what the Rangers had offered but got rejected by an arbitrator:

Rangers Offer: Doug Weight, Tony Amonte, Alexei Kovalev, John Vanbiesbrouck, three first round picks (1993, 1994 & 1995) and $12,000,000.

While I allready knew about how much the Flyer's paid for Lindros, the Rangers Deal really struck me. I think Philly's offer was better in retrospect, but at the time wasen't Forsberg relativily unknown?

[PROBIE4PREZ 58]

so we threw a bunch of 3rd an 4th liners away .. who cares ill take those trades anyday .. Shawn Mattias is the only guy that I can say might comeback and bite us in the ass but so far hes proving me right... and to say the wings would have drafted those players is crazy cuz they draft off the board so much.

[mmamolo 287]

Forsberg was drafter in 1991, the same year Lindros was I believe. Lindros held out for a year and was traded in 1992 to the FLyers for a package that included Forsberg. Forsberg had yet to play a game in the NHL and didn't until 1994. Forsberg was drafted 6th overall by the FLyers that year and was actually ranked as the 25th best available prospect. So yeah, he was unknown and thought to be a little overrated by the Flyers.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Adam Oates and Paul MacLean to St. Louis for Bernie Federko and Tony McKegney turned out to be one hell of a gem

[eva unit zero 271]

Jimmy Carson, Marc Potvin, and Gary Shuchuk for Paul Coffey, Sylvain Courturier and Jim Hiller

Basically Carson for Coffey...the Wings kinda shoved a handgun in the Kings' mouths there.

[AtomicPunk 296]

I am almost always OK with trading away "potential" for proven talent. So many players don't pan out at the NHL level that if you can get someone who is a star at that level and give away "maybes", it seems to all work out in the end.

Take a look at Lord Stanley and see if Anders Eriksson's name is on it. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to win when the time is right.

[Manoir 70]

The drafting skills of the Wings has been their biggest asset and it makes Holland look like a better GM than he really is. I don't know how much input he had in the Wings selections since '97 or so, but picks like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen are the reason the Wings have remained competitive. I truly believe the real test for Holland will come in the next few years once Lidstrom/Osgood retire and he has to start some filling some major holes, not just 2nd/3rd line positions or trying to get a 4th/5th Dman.